# What would happen if the US started withdrawing support from Israel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134 "2010-03-28T19:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/101 "2010-04-02T00:41:44Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Israel has already shown it can be beaten by groups like Hamas. I’m sorry, that’s not true, at all. Israel can and would crush them if they really devoted themselves to the job. Political pressure from the USA and elsewhere keeps them in (relative) check so far. I cannot believe that anyone that has any knowledge of Israel and its military would actually believe that. That’s what Hamas (and Hizbullah) tells its followers. It simply ain’t true. Pound for pound, the IDF is the best fighting force on the face of the planet. Pan-Arab sub groups and terrorist organizations like Hamas stand zero chance of defeating Israel if Israel _really_ took the gloves off. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/102 "2010-04-02T01:25:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > snip… > > But until that happy day, it would be rather disasterous to have a country in which a former majority is confronted with a new majority whose population _intensely dislikes_ the former majority. Particularly where the recent experience of the Jews as an athnic group in the ME and Europe as a ‘hated minority’ has been so unhappy. This has happened ‘fairly’ successfully in South Africa. Unfortunately many of the ‘hated minority’ in South Africa were either attacked or immigrated, but it is certainly better now than under apartheid. A similar solution for Palestine would be the creation of a single state and removal of Israels discriminatory immigration policy. In the same way as South Africa, the ethnic majority would be given back control of the country. How could this be done whilst protecting the safety of all religious groups? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/103 "2010-04-02T01:52:42Z")
Except, no, the analogy falls apart at every level. There was never a country of Palestine, and the area that was partitioned to become Israel _was_ partitioned along ethnic majority lines. Nor did the Palestinians ever have control over the country. For roughly 400 years it was an Ottoman possession and ruled from Damascus. Even then, the majority of the land in question was never privately owned and most Palestinians have no claim to the land in any sense of ownership. And even _all that_ being true, most of the Palestinian populace are made up of people, and their descendants, who immigrated to the region during the same time as the Zionists. To claim that because they immigrated more heavily (due to racist British restrictions) they should be allowed to eliminate Israel as a sovereign nation and rule the entire area is… odd. And so on. Likewise, Israel’s immigration policy is only “discriminatory” in that it’s set up to be a safe haven for Jews. Non-Jews are able to immigrate as well. Attacking the Law of Return is a backdoor method of claiming that Jews have no right to safe haven on the entire planet. ’ You are conflating the Palestinians, who are not Israeli citizens and never will be, with Israel’s Arab populace, who have full citizenship rights and are protected under the law although discrimination does still occur. Your analogy is also, shall we say, cherrpicked? It’s telling that it’s always “South Africa worked out just fine” and not “Well… Zimbabwe…” The problem with analogies is that they’re very often divergent from the original fact they’re supposed to be compared too. That is, when they’re not actively obfuscatory (if Zimbabwe’s troubles had come before South Africa, would you have been arguing that Apartheid should remain in force?). It is eludicative that rather than dealing with the specific problems, circumstances, context, history and grievances in I/P, some would prefer to act as if it’s just South Africa transplanted to a different place, and leave it at that. The situations are totally different unless you wipe out enough essential, defining distinctions as to render a comparison meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/104 "2010-04-02T04:17:45Z")
> [@](#): > > . Nor did the Palestinians ever have control over the country. For roughly 400 years it was an Ottoman possession and ruled from Damascus. The important consideration is the people who have lived there, and who live there now, rather than which power historically controlled the area. You will find that South Africa has been controlled by various powers over time as well. The Australian aborigines, like the South African aborigines, never had control of a country - they just lived there. > [@](#): > > And even _all that_ being true, most of the Palestinian populace are made up of people, and their descendants, who immigrated to the region during the same time as the Zionists. Does it matter where the current populace came from? Europe, Russia or Egypt - they are there now. > [@](#): > > Likewise, Israel’s immigration policy is only “discriminatory” in that it’s set up to be a safe haven for Jews. Non-Jews are able to immigrate as well. Attacking the Law of Return is a backdoor method of claiming that Jews have no right to safe haven on the entire planet. ’ Like all countries, Palestine/Israel should be a safe haven for all creeds to live together in peace. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/105 "2010-04-02T04:37:12Z")
First, you are the one phrased things in terms of an ‘ethnic majority’ ‘regaining control’. You have now retreated to simply saying that those who lived there should gain control. You are also ignoring that the partition was drawn along ethnic majority lines, so there is no reason for you to say that Israel should be obliterated as a sovereign nation because the people next door are of a different ethnicity. Your argument seeks to conflate Palestinians gaining control of their _own_ country with them gaining control over and eliminating an entirely separate sovereign nation. Nor can you, validly, try to equate 400 years of the Ottoman land codes with colonial rule over South Africa. You’re obfuscating the issue when you claim that the situation of land ownership was in any way analogous between Ottoman citizens and Australian Aborigines. It’s roughly the same bit of misdirection as if you’d claimed that an American who rented an apartment but didn’t own it was just like the Aborigines. (And yet again, why SA for your analogy rather than Zimbabwe?) And yes, it matters when the people arrived. Since the population of the region was swelled by immigration brought about by the Zionists improving the area, it’s especially nonsensical to claim that the Arab populace that moved in should get their own state, but the Jews shouldn’t get theirs and the Arabs should get to remove the Jewish one that was created and rule over the Jewish ethnic majority, too. Of course, you final comment sidesteps the issue The Law of Return guarantees that Israel will always be a safe haven for Jews, unlike literally every other nation on the planet. No matter what happens, there is only one nation on the world that will accept any Jews and every Jew fleeing other nations. Only one. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/106 "2010-04-02T05:08:28Z")
so i just read through all 3 pages and i have 3 thoughts: 1- Krauthammer, what a name. 2- threads get derailed SO easily 3- ideologies, semantics, and historical factoids aside, i’m interested in thoughts on the OP. What would happen if the US withdrew troops from Israel. i’m on the side that other superpowers would take up the gauntlet. while it’s true that the saudis have oil, but egypt, palestine, and jordan do not. Plus the israelis are some of the biggest arms sluts in the market today, supplying both India and China with high tech weaponry. Plus china gets its oil from the Sudan (darfur controversy, anyone?). i also don’t buy the “uncage the israeli beast” idea. is israel just going to conquer the middle east if the US isn’t there to keep Israel in check? of course not. they’re technologically advanced but they’re not capable of inciting WWIII and going apeshit on the ME. plus the US should know as well as anyone that you can’t declare a traditional war on terrorists. i think friedman’s article was pretty spot on. peace is nothing more than a piece of paper for the israelis. they’re conducting business as usual over there without a formal peace agreement. the US pulling out wouldn’t do much to stop the terror or the animosity in the region, nor escalate it. the symbolic move though, is one that the pro-israeli lobbyists in this nation would never allow. this should incite a rant about lobbyists but i’ll restrain myself. i think jewish americans, traumatized by stories of the holocaust, need the US to back Israel. the only reason we’re over there, i’m convinced, is because of the lobby. a marginal troop presence and a diplomatic smile keeps the approval ratings buoyant. pulling out would have drastic political consequences but to israel itself? not much. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/107 "2010-04-02T05:15:58Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > . What would happen if the US withdrew troops from Israel. Someone has a lot of explaining to do as to how they got there in the first place? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/108 "2010-04-02T05:38:49Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Your knowledge of modern M.Eastern history seems to be very limited to say the least so I’ll content myself by mentioning the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War. > > In 1967 Egypt, Syria and Jordan, together with troops and other assistance from Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and Sudan were totally defeated by the I.D.F. in spite of the huge numbers of forces that the arab nations put both in the air and on the ground. How does a former soldier not know the difference between a defensive war and an offensive one? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/109 "2010-04-02T14:26:10Z")
We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day… The Six-Day War’s seventh day has transformed us from a just society into an unjust one, prepared to expand its control atop another nation’s ruins. The discarding of our moral foundation has hurt us as a society, reinforcing the arguments of the world’s hostile elements and sowers of evil and intensifying their influence… No need to repeat the details of the painful phenomena entailed in the occupation regime and in our battle to prolong it. Suffice it to recall the killing of little children fleeing for safety; the executions, without trial, of wanted persons who were not on their way to launch a terrorist act; and the encirclements, closures and roadblocks that have turned the lives of millions into a nightmare. Even if all these actions stem from our need to defend ourselves under an occupation’s conditions, the occupation’s non-existence would render them unnecessary. Thus, a black flag hovers over these actions… Michael Ben-Yair (Israel’s Attorney General, 1993 - 1996) [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=136433](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=136433) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/110 "2010-04-02T16:02:11Z")
So, Dick, you’d also uncritically cite and support any Israeli opinion that disagreed with your position too? And in the future, if anybody provided a cite from any Israeli politician saying something, you’d support that, too, right? Or is there a special reason why you’re offering Israeli politicians’ opinions and tacitly asking that people hold them as gospel? Here’s a thought, provide your own arguments. While ad hom support of a person is nice and all, it’s rather clear that Yair has let his personal feelings run away with him. Like his claim that the Intifada is the Palestinian people’s war of ‘national liberation’, and yet not only was there no such movement when they were Jordanian and Egyptian possessions (although there was an attempt to take over all of Jordan). The Second Intifada was in response to a peace deal that would have given them 97% of their territorial ambitions and a sovereign state whose borders they controlled, not ‘oppression’. Nor is there international support for the ‘right to violence’ of Palestinians who are in refugee camps in other nations, such as when they had a camp in Lebanon shelled continuously by the Lebanese military and the world stood silent. Yair’s claims that the occupation’s non-existence would make security measures unnecessary are, likewise, a strange opinion not grounded in fact. He’s only able to voice such an opinion by ignoring that the PLO was founded to destroy Israel _before_ the Six Day War and that Hamas has pledged eternal hostility and genocidal ambitions regardless of Israel’s occupation or not. As pointed out numerous times, the only effect of dropping all checkpoints and border controls tomorrow would be that Hamas would be able to launch rockets at every Israeli village, town and city the day after that. As I would hope is obvious, this is not a path to “peace”, but all out war. And so on. The point is that you need to actually support an argument in your own words, rather than simply playing a game of “Ah-hah! An Israeli politician said it, it must be true!” Especially since, in such a vibrant democracy with a tradition of robust debate, finding someone to support some position isn’t all that difficult, and cherrypicking statements to support your own ideas is not a valid route to actually proving those ideas. Any more than someone who wanted to ‘prove’ that America was a socialist nation could do so by citing Republicans who’ve made that charge. And most people would question such a tactic anyways, just as they should when you use it to support your position. Besides, sooner or later someone might cite another Israeli politician with another point of view, and then who knows what to think! Ayieieieieie!!! [ > [@](#): > > Lost in the blur of slogans > […] > My perspective is unique, both as the vice consul for Israel in San Francisco, and as a Bedouin and the highest-ranking Muslim representing the Israel in the United States. I was born into a Bedouin tribe in Northern Israel, one of 11 children, and began life as shepherd living in our family tent. I went on to serve in the Israeli border police, and later earned a master’s degree in political science from Tel Aviv University before joining the Israel Foreign Ministry. > […] > You are part of the problem, not part of the solution: If you are really idealistic and committed to a better world, stop with the false rhetoric. We need moderate people to come together in good faith to help find the path to relieve the human suffering on both sides of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Vilification and false labeling is a blind alley that is unjust and takes us nowhere. > > You deny Israel the fundamental right of every society to defend itself: You condemn Israel for building a security barrier to protect its citizens from suicide bombers and for striking at buildings from which missiles are launched at its cities - but you never offer an alternative. > […] > You are betraying the moderate Muslims and Jews who are working to achieve peace: Your radicalism is undermining the forces for peace in Israel and in the Palestinian territories. We are working hard to move toward a peace agreement that recognizes the legitimate rights of both Israel and the Palestinian people, and you are tearing down by falsely vilifying one side. > > To the organizers of Israel Apartheid Week I would like to say: > > If Israel were an apartheid state, I would not have been appointed here, nor would I have chosen to take upon myself this duty. There are many Arabs, both within Israel and in the Palestinian territories who have taken great courage to walk the path of peace. You should stand with us, rather than against us. ]([http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/03/EDRP168GMT.DTL](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/03/EDRP168GMT.DTL)) Darn, now we don’t know which Israeli to uncritically believe! I guess we’ll have to look at the facts. …fuck! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/111 "2010-04-02T16:09:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The point is that you need to actually support an argument in your own words, rather than simply playing a game of “Ah-hah! An Israeli politician said it, it must be true!” Hang on! In all the other threads where you are arguing about Israel, you insist on rejecting personal opinions and relying instead upon “official” cites, yet now someone is providing a cite, you want them to back it up “in their own words”? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/112 "2010-04-02T16:23:33Z")
What I’m saying is that the apartheid analogy is so compellling _that even some prominent Israelis_ are making it. That it’s not just a bunch of crazed antisemitic people making it but also prominent mainstream Israelis too. That doesn’t mean that I have to accept anything any Israeli says as accurate. For instance, there are prominent Israelis who condemn the apartheid analogy and call anybody making it antisemitic; I don’t agree with them. And the Palestinian people didn’t move to Palestine at the same time as the Zionists, they were already there. For centuries before the start of Zionist resettlement in the late 1880s the Jewish population of Palestine was in the low single digits, as we can see from the census numbers linked below. I know somehow that this fact won’t be factual and I’ll have made a bunch of factual errors and personal attacks, so let’s not bother debating it or the apartheid analogy or any other wild tangents we may end up going on. Let’s just both put up our own version of the facts and let people decide for themselves which ones they like best. [![](https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2753/4111168454_dc0b57d92a_o.jpg) ](https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2753/4111168454_dc0b57d92a_o.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/113 "2010-04-02T18:23:04Z")
Dick, all you’re demonstrating is that you are ignorant of Israeli culture and politics. Israeli political viewpoints include everything from capitalism to hardcore communism, from expelling all the Arab residents to immediately withdrawing from the territories unilaterally. That you can cherrypick one viewpoint and declare that its mere existence makes it “compelling” is a farce. And it seems that you didn’t even realize the irony of your hypocritical argument. An Israeli politician saying that there is an apartheid situation means that it’s compelling, but an Israel politician saying that there’s not is just to be handwaved away. A no, sorry, there are no “different versions of facts”. Not, of course, that “[farm3.static.flickr.com](http://farm3.static.flickr.com)” isn’t a reliable source of census data for an uncited chart, but it would be very interesting to see where they got their data from and how they “corrected” it, especially since it doesn’t seem to match any of the actual census numbers. Not to mention that you’ve moved the start of Zionist settlement from the 1850’s to the 1880’s. The fact is that we don’t have firm data from the period you’re referencing, and the Mandatory period is spotty as well. We do, however, have some facts. The British authorities stated that there was an unknown amount of Arab immigration, but that it was most likely substantial. The Jewish communities significantly raised the standard of living in the areas surround them, and economic factors of that sort have always helped spur immigration, especially in a situation like that which the populace of the Ottoman Empire faced. Britain’s 1935 report confirmed more than 100,000 Arab immigrants alone, and that was only the ones they’d caught. [ > [@](#): > > 1. One thousand five hundred and fifty-seven persons (including 565 Jews) who, having made their way into the country surreptitiously, were later detected, were sentenced to imprisonment for their offence and recommended for deportation. 1,079 such deportations were carried out in the year, including 245 Jews and 834 other persons. Twelve Jewish and two non-Jewish travellers were also deported for overstaying their period of permitted stay in the country. In addition, 1,354 persons, of whom 38 were Jews, were summarily deported to Syria and Egypt. Wherever possible bail is allowed on substantial security to illegal immigrants who have completed their sentence of imprisonment and are merely being detained until the arrangements for their deportation are complete. Often, however, they refuse to give particulars for identification and have to be detained until travel documents are discovered in one of the countries through which they passed on their way to Palestine. A number of women released on bail have quickly contracted marriages with Palestinian nationals and thus evaded deportation. ]([http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/B672DC87B2D50447052565D4005173DF](http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/B672DC87B2D50447052565D4005173DF)) As of 1930, the Simpson Report noted that: [ > [@](#): > > Industrial enterprises before the War and subsequent increase.— Of existing industrial establishments 1,236, with a total capital in excess of one million pounds were in existence before the War. Since the War therefore the number of establishments had in-creased up to the date of the Industrial Census by 2,269 or 183 per cent, and the capital by two and a half million pounds, or 250 per cent. This is a very material increase and it is almost entirely due to the importation of Jewish capital and the immigration of a Jewish population. ]([MidEastWeb The Report of Sir John Hope Simpson, 1930](http://www.mideastweb.org/hopesimpson.htm)) There may be a quibble as to whether or not “much” or “most” of the population in the region arrived illegally and migrated internally to sites where the economy and standard of living was surging, but dodging the question by pointing out that there were Arabs there before 1850 is spectacularly unimpressive. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/114 "2010-04-02T20:07:03Z")
> **[Amazon.com: The Population of Palestine: Population History and Statistics of...](https://www.amazon.com/Population-Palestine-History-Statistics-Institute/dp/0231071108)** > > Amazon.com: The Population of Palestine: Population History and Statistics of the Late Ottoman Period and the Mandate (Institute for Palestine Studies Series): 9780231071109: McCarthy, Justin: Books Here’s the book those numbers came from. Here’s another set of numbers from 1890 : > **[Demographics of the State of Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine#Demographics_in_the_late_Ottoman_and_British_Mandate_periods)** > > Demographic features of the population of the area commonly described as Palestinian territories includes information on ethnicity, education level, health of the populace, economic status, religious affiliations and other aspects of that population. > According to a commonly used definition as relating to an application of the 1949 Armistice Agreement green line, the Palestinian territories have contributory parts of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. that show the Jewish population at about 8%. Here’s another set of numbers which show the Jewish population of Palestine in the low single digits for centuries before the Zionists started organised settling : [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11788438&postcount=160](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11788438&postcount=160) When you talk about “the actual census numbers”, which numbers are you talking about? Zionist settling started in earnest around 1880 and by the time the Brits took their first census in 1922 Jews made up 11% of the total population. So what numbers don’t mine fit in with? Here’s the Brit census stuff > **[British Mandate of Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine)** > > British Mandate of Palestine or Palestine Mandate most often refers to: So whichever set of numbers you pick then it takes well after we both acknowledge that organised Zionist settling increased the Jewish population percentage before the Jewish population of Palestine breaks 10%, and the numbers from another poster show low single digits from 1600ish to 1800 and after. Anyway, you put your census numbers down and people can pick which ones they like. Have a nice weekend. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/115 "2010-04-02T20:30:33Z")
I will note that you’re trying to change the subject from when Arab immigrants arrived to when Jewish immigrants arrived. As for your ignorance of what census I’m referring to, please check your facts before you make claims. Rather obviously, when you linked to numbers from a specific time period, the specific time period was the one in which I was discussing census figures. Also glaringly obviously, it doesn’t match the Ottoman numbers because your own source modified them as he indicates with the claim that he has “corrected” the figures. McCarthy is well known for his argument that women and children were under-counted, even though the prime reason to avoid the Ottoman census would have been for men to get out of military service obligations and tzxes, something that wage-earning men of military age would have had special reason to avoid. The Turkish census of 1893, for example, found roughly 400,000 Arabs in the region. McCarthy “corrects” the figure and claims roughly 550,000, a massive increase. He also claims that there were roughly the same number of Arabs in 1883 as the 1893 Turkish census found. In fact, the only fully reliable census data that exists was from 1931. And as already pointed out, by the 30’s the standard of living for the Arabs surrounding the Jewish areas was already _double that of Arabs in the surrounding countries_. The region had also gained a major infrastructure upgrade when the port of Haifa was built in the 20’s. That the 100,000+ who happened to be caught attempting to immigrate represented the sum total of those seeking to improve their lives is nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/116 "2010-04-02T21:49:08Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yes, Obama would run the risk of what happened to George HW Bush. > > [Best Mother’s Day Gifts 2021 | 31 Unique Mother’s Day Gift Ideas | Observer](http://www.observer.com/node/33426) Here’s a commentary that states Bush, Jr., was no friend of Israel. The commentary also has some other points germane to this discussion: [http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0410/glick040210.php3](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0410/glick040210.php3) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/117 "2010-04-02T22:01:15Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Pound for pound, the IDF is the best fighting force on the face of the planet. Dubious assessment. The IDF is superbly equipped and trained, but it’s not a professional military. Conscript armies have historically simply not been as effective. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/118 "2010-04-02T22:15:02Z")
[http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/04/the-conflict-between-the-us-and-israel-must-end-now.php](http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/04/the-conflict-between-the-us-and-israel-must-end-now.php) > [@](#): > > … Sixth, if Israel’s enemies were to lay down their arms and stop terrorist and rocket attacks against Israel, there would be peace. Seventh, if Israel were to lay down its arms, there would be genocide. And eighth, when the Palestinian leadership and population want their own state more than they want there not to be a Jewish state, there will be a two-state solution. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/119 "2010-04-02T23:28:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Dubious assessment. The IDF is superbly equipped and trained, but it’s not a professional military. Conscript armies have historically simply not been as effective. Please elaborate. 🙂 Consider the US Army in WWII, for example. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/120 "2010-04-03T01:32:33Z")
> [@astro](#): > > At this point, in a realpolitik sense, what does the Obama administration really have to lose by beginning to distance itself from Israel and Israeli policies that don’t align with US interests? This thread seems to have veered a bit, as these threads tend to do, but I will throw an answer into the mix. The Obama administration risks losing the approval of some of its political base but in terms of geopolitical realpolitik it has little to lose and much to gain; in fact Israel has much to gain as well. In fact, I think that the Obama administration was secretly grateful that Bibi’s underling gave them the chance to express some condemnation. Israel needs a friend that will not do the equivalent of letting her drive drunk, a friend who will take the keys away and keep them away even if she yells at him and has the other friends yell at him too. Being willing to politically distance, to not only threaten but to follow through on removal of funding, is that equivalent. Meanwhile Obama needs to show the Arab actors that this American President can actually be an honest broker and that he has some meaning behind the words he has said to them. This episode and his willingness to stand up to his House’s disapproval earns him some of that cred. That cred will end up helping Israel in the long run too. As far as the domestic political fall-out - the bet is that being willing to actually pressure Israel will end up delivering results both because Israel will end up moving and because the Arab side will be more willing to move if they trust Obama as an honest broker. If it results in a deal before re-election the bet pays off big. And the down side is not so big, really. A reasonable bet that I think might actually pay off. OTOH, blind support of all Israeli actions, having Israel know they risk nothing by ignoring American wishes and interests, is a bad bet to place, for all involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134.md?page=7)