Do you have any evidence that increasing the minimum wage ever results in hiring increases due to the increased “purchasing power” of those making minimum wage? Don’t confuse spending power with purchasing power.
Who is “we”? Maybe you would like to live in a society where hundreds of thousands of people who are unemployed and would like jobs but are unable to work for the people who want to hire them because some busybodies don’t think those jobs are good enough. Being unemployed is very difficult, and intentionally creating unemployed people to help the employed slightly is bad social policy. Especially at a time when there are so much unemployment, repealing the minimum wage is a better idea than ever. However, since the purpose of liberalism is to make as many people as possible dependent on the government, the minimum wage laws are serving their purpose.
If that is true, then the opposite is also true; the purpose of conservatism is to make as many people as possible the chattel of industry.
This is where I differ with you evil liberals! You want to shut a Mom and Pop store down, where is the news when you need them!
Let’s face some facts here.
The minumum wage is not an important issue. It just isn’t. Would there be a marginal improvement if it was raised or lowered by some marginal amount? Maybe yes, maybe no. But changing the minumum wage will only have marginal effects unless it is drastically raised. Lowering the minumum wage won’t suddenly lead to every minumum wage worker coming to work tomorrow and finding their wages slashed. If it’s not worth hiring some slob to work for $7 an hour, how the heck is that same slob going to be worth paying $6 an hour? At the end of the day, the employer will have saved a whole eight dollars!
Lowering the mimumum wage significantly will have the exact same effect as simply repealing the minumum wage. You’re not going to find employers offering $2 an hour jobs, because such a job is not worth doing by anyone capable of doing it. The kind of person who might consider such a job is already essentially unemployable. It would cost more to supervise and monitor such an employee than they could possibly generate.
Even migrant farm workers make a heck of a lot more than that, and you know why? Because they aren’t paid an hourly wage, they are paid by the piece. You aren’t paid $7 an hour to pick apples all day long, instead, you’re paid $X per bushel you pick. Work fast and you make a lot more than minumum wage. Work slow, and you can make less.
The minumum wage is a side issue, because it just doesn’t effect that many people. If the minumum wage were higher, lowering it might make some sense. But it isn’t very high, and since it hasn’t kept up with inflation over the last decade, it has actually dropped in real terms. The minumum wage is actually very low right now. So lowering it won’t detectably lower unemployment, as the conservatives seem to think, neither will it lead to wage cuts as the liberals seem to think. We’re already cutting the minumum wage slightly, simply by not raising it.
By gonzo’s logic, all we need to do is raise the minimum wage to $200 an hour, and our economic problems are over.
If we cut MW, more illegal aliens would probably work on the books.
Regards,
Shodan
An illegal alien can’t work “on the books”, because they don’t have documentation to work legally in the United States. If they’ve got fake documentation that is good enough for their employer, then how would changing the minumum wage change anything?
It makes a small difference in the grand scheme of things but it can make a large difference in some people’s lives. From an article on the Huffyton Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/29/youth-unemployment-2011-implications_n_940897.html
This way out of line with historical trends, even in the darkest days of Jim Crow labor force participation for young black men was even or higher than that of white young men. The rise in the minimum wage has shut out this group from grasping the lowest rung on the economic ladder. The fate of a couple of hundred thousands poor minorities may not matter to much to the nation overall, but it would be nice if liberals could find other ways of making themselves feel good besides targeting the most vulnerable of our society.
If you are suggesting that minimum wage laws contributed in some way to the findings in the study, I didn’t see anything in that article to back it up.
I’m sorry this is not a response to your question but I just have to say that woman scares me, she really does.
I can’t understand that anyone would believe that lowering the min wage could mean anything but disaster for the already poor.
Kids are not unemployed because the jobs pay too much. they are unemployed because there is no work.
The Repub philosophy will change this country into a 3rd world backwater. They don’t care about good jobs for adults or children. They just want to make all the money they can. If they could kill the Minimum wage ,they would do it tomorrow. If they could make every body work for half the money they make now, they would do it is a second.
I am suggesting that. We have a situation where upper middle class teenagers are more likely to have jobs than poor teenagers. Even though the poor teenagers need the jobs more. This is because the upper middle class teenagers are more likely to live in areas where the educational opportunities and culture make them more likely to be productive enough to justify a salary above minimum wage. Poor teenagers are from areas where there is less human capital and are thus not as productive. Throughout history there has always been places where workers were more productive and places where workers were less productive. The solution was that the more productive workers were paid more and the less productive workers paid less. As the less productive workers got experience they became more productive and were paid more. The minimum wage keeps the less productive workers out of a job.
This has not been done in a corner. The president just appoint Krueger to the CEA. One of his most famous studies was a preliminary study he did with Card that concluded the minimum wage did not hurt hiring, it was trumpeted by liberals because they finally had a study that agreed with them instead of the myriad of studies that showed the minimum wage hurts hiring. Yet when the better designed follow up studies debunked Card and Krueger’s study, liberals didn’t change their position they just stopped invoking the first study and started arguing about “the kind of society we want for ourselves”. The reason for this is obvious, if the poor get jobs and work their way up the economic ladder they stop being dependent on the crumbs that fall from the liberals tables and start supporting themselves and then thinking for themselves. Liberalism depends on a dependent underclass to justify their pursuit of power, thus they are for the minimum wage.
liberalism is a concept, it cannot depend on anyone, nor be pro anything. All politics is about power.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Kids are not unemployed because the jobs pay too much. they are unemployed because there is no work.
[/QUOTE]
Where do you get that there is no work at the level of minimum wage type jobs. What jobs are you talking about here? Do you have any evidence to back up your statement here?
For instance, do you have evidence that ‘McDucks’ is currently doing poorly, has had a large drop off in custom, has had a large downturn in sales, etc etc, and that this has caused them to cut staff?
And to use babies to grease the wheels of industry, no doubt. 
Of course not…they hate votes after all, and only care about Big Business™ giving them lots of money so they can buy their offices. Plus the dead babies greasing the wheels of industry thingy…they really like that. Most likely they drink blood as well.
Well sure…obviously they want to bring back to good old days of slavery, right? I’m sure that’s their eventual goal. So, they will force people to work for half of what they make now (and this won’t be because that’s what their labor is worth, but because they are just evil baby killing and blood drinking, er, evil guys), and then half as much again, and again, and again…until everyone is working for nothing! Then we’ll be onto step 3…PROFIT! It’s an excellent plan, except for eagle eyed observers such as yourself who have seen through their smoke screen and outed them!
-XT
Young people are at a high for unemployment. If you don’t know about that, what do you know? Job opportunities for kids are at a low. There is a lot of discussion about the long range impact of our youth having a difficult time getting started in the work force.
When there is a McDonalds opening up around here, the lines for people looking for jobs is long. Sometimes fights break out.
See, that’s actually a good cite and actually demonstrated what you were getting at. Thanks for the cite…I knew that joblessness for the youngest working cohort were bad, but didn’t realize they were that bad. Your area must be harder hit than mine…there are no fights for jobs at ‘McDucks’ in my area.
So, now that you have demonstrated that point, put it in the context of this discussion. Would lowering minimum wage increase the numbers of jobs for the 16-24 cohort by encouraging businesses to hire more people, or would it be the same. What’s the reason places like ‘McDucks’ aren’t hiring more kids in that group? Is it because they lack business, because they have highly automated and streamlined their process (due in part to having to pay higher minimum wages for unskilled workers), or something else? Would reducing mandatory minimum wages help, hurt or have no effect (FWIW, my guess is it wouldn’t help because most businesses have already invested heavily in automation and streamlining their processes, so that ship has sailed IMHO).
And thanks again for the relevant and meaningful cite…you were right and I was wrong there.
-XT
It merely stirs the pot, creating a further chaotic system, whose outcome is unpredictable. (yes, the government is in a chaotic state)
So Make the minimum wage $0. No one would work for that either according to your rant. No one on the planet wants to work in a communism where wages are fixed at whatever level. Minimum wages inherently attempts to create a Marxist collectivism which has proven time and time again not to work. (Case in point, Obama’s policies)
Setting the MW at $0 would at least obsolete the bureaucracy associated with managing the MW which then could be eliminated which would increase every workers income by the associated reduction in taxes (an overhead expense in the families operating budget).
And you with a college degree should be inherently more skilled at flipping hamburgers than your competition. I made myself an expert at Pizza Hut while working on an engineering degree. I could make more pies, run more ovens, take in more cash receipts with less waste and higher customer service than any other worker and as a result I was promoted to a managers position in my senior year but graduated and left that BS job having secured a position with a private firm all during the carter administration.(another period of high unemployment brought on by Marxist policies)
History shows that public works projects during the depression era which the DBA and MW was enacted to support, had no effect on the economy of the time. And Obama’s variation on public work projects again has proven ineffectual if not detrimental to the economy. And Obama, raised the MW too. Eliminate MW all together!
Elimination of the MW would have the following effects:
[ol]
[li]Employers would have to judge employees based on ability(what a novel idea)[/li][li]Employers would not have regulatory loop holes they now use to reduce the cost of products. (elimination of high paid compliance workers reduces product costs)[/li][li]A government bureaucracy would be eliminated. (eradication of parasites is a good thing and reduces cost)[/li][li]Pay scales would be based on worker efficiency and performance. (it is a fact that certain people flip burgers better than others)[/li][li]Employees would then take ownership and most would be proud to work for what they receive in compensation because they earned it.(a clear motivation to better themselves)[/li][li]The whole stigma associated with just earning only the minimum wage as expressed by many posters here would be removed.(a workforce bummed out by being only capable of earning the derogatory minimum wage is counterproductive)[/li][li]Getting young adults working and off the streets reduces costs further (riots are expensive and wasteful)[/li][li]Jobs during the formative years prepares young adults for positions of higher responsibility and learning. (start early, more experience is required to build a more highly technological infrastructure)[/li][li]Skilled workers would receive compensation not pegged to some amount above an arbitrary MW but based on true skills/education/experience/efficiency.[/li][li]Unskilled workers would see more clearly the benefit of becoming skilled and would be commensurately motivated.[/li][li]The government would then be required to turn its attention to “promoting” rather than “providing” the general welfare. (as stated in the constitution)[/li][li]Successful promotion of products/service/skills creates orders of magnitude more jobs than a MW as America is the testament.[/li][li]With all of the costs bureaucracy parasites and MW compliance workers eliminated there would be a ton of cash available to invest in the future to fund the college education of the overpaid hamburger flippers.[/li][/ol]
NB: For those that might be confused. To recover an economy the families budget must be effected directly. Either the family must decrease expenses or increase income to have a positive net balance of discretionary and disposable net proceeds (families profit). A governments increase in expenses to pay for public works or increase of income by further taxation only steals from Peter to pay Paul with zero net effect. The MW steals from Peter to pay Paul and has zero net effect and is crazy.
**Conclusion: **The MW did not result in the desired outcome to ameliorate the great depression and dinking around with it has not resulted to decrease unemployment during this economy and everything about it increases costs and limits the families income the source of all wealth, So abolish the MW!
And if the family already has stripped their budget to the bone, and there are no further jobs to be obtained in the area, how do you suggest they accomplish this?
You can not force all the landlords in the area to drop the rent cost. You can not get the utility companies to lower their rates. You can not get grocery stores to drop their prices. You can not force someone to hire you or raise your wage.
:dubious:
There is one thing missing from this equation. Just because a business might want to pay less doesn’t mean that they can. If they offered 35¢/hour to work drive through, they wouldn’t be able to get anyone. You forget that the labor market has a say in this. There is a reasonable amount that a job should pay, and the natural forces of the market would find that sweet spot. Just like it does for jobs that pay way more than the minimum wage.
Also, I think that the minimum wage (if we are going to have one) is set about right, so that’s where we’d be anyway. But let’s say it’s abolished and companies are able to start hiring people for $5.00/hour. Suddenly, business will be better able to reward the better performers at the lower end of the wage scale. They wouldn’t have to be so tight. There’d be a heightened sense that your wage is tired to the job you do. I think the more that is embraced the better for all conncerned.
Think outside the box, Man. Focus on those things that make you unique. If you are doing the same thing your buddy is doing you are in a box that is too crowded.
Out of the box thinking is Like well,
[ol]
[li]Be the first to leave a good first impression[/li][li]be the first to respectfully visit your congress person (if you believe they are worth a shit)[/li][li]If they are not worth a shit visit them every day.[/li][li]Start doing favors for someone you know will eventually return the favor[/li][li]Buy used products. Buy food at farmers markets[/li][li]Seek out and exploit niche markets(all jobs are not listed in the want ads)[/li][li]Educate yourself about businesses in your area.[/li][li]Show your face and your good appearance around.[/li][li]Do some dumpster diving and sale used stuff that you found for free.[/li][li]if you see something you can do that ain’t getting done, promote your doing it![/li][li]Go to book store and read self help books for free to get ideas.[/li][li]Don’t sit around and mope, be constructive and creative[/li][li]be the first to “leave the area”[/li][/ol]
The list is not in in particular order. When all else fails, The last one has always worked for me. The whole country does not have lines of prospective workers at the local McDonald’s. I just saw a job listing for a veteran to mow the cemetery lawns in Hawaii. Go figure!
Until you drop this attitude that it is the landlords, utility companies, grocery stores, and employers who are at fault and have all the control you will not succeed at anything. The owners, operators, and workers are just like you and live under the same rules. The only difference is that they have a job and you don’t. It is all about that chip on a lot of peoples shoulders. Do you think it is not visible. Well knock it off, it will not get you what you want.
I am surprised you did not mention oil companies as a reason for your tight budget, as well.
I don’t rent an apartment, I rent a landlord. He/she is the other person you are in bed with other than your wife. So partner up with someone that has a high probability of needing things done. I don’t run an A/C or heater and I use the bath water to flush the toilet and water the lawn. I volunteer at churches and such places that have food drives and am the first person in line to get a box. I don’t buy off the rack. I pick up cloths and shoes at garage sales. I shop at the least expensive grocery mart. Buy American and rarely if ever buy from Wally world.
Now you want lower rent costs, lower utility costs, lower grocery costs, lower fuel costs. and a job. So do I. Our f@$^kg government is responsible for this whole mess and they can simply undo this mess by eliminating regulations and the bureaucracy.
[ol]
[li]Shut down Freddi and Fannie and turn over all foreclosed properties to the local community to dispose of. Get HUD out of the housing market. The governments manipulation of the housing market is what started this whole mess.[/li][li]Roll back the regulations on coal mining and power plant emissions.[/li][li]Eliminate the EPA regulations limiting conversion of vehicles from operating on natural gas.[/li][li]Allow the oil companies to do what they do best. Pump oil wherever it is found.[/li][li]Provide a 90% tax credit(a reduction in taxes) for home owners and landlords to install Ground source heat pumps for A/C and heaters.[/li][li]Eliminate or equalize the regulations that require farmers to provide food, shelter, utilities and clothing to migrant workers but are disallowed by the same regulation of offering the same benefits to local workers.[/li][li]Eliminate the 63 new regulations placed on the small community banks which prevent them from making loans[/li][li]Fire 20% of the bureaucrats in the federal government.[/li][/ol]
If "We the People"don’t have a job why should a government “for the People” made up “of the People” have a job, especially when it was “those people” who created this mess.