# What would happen if you tried to legally marry somebody with no identification or proof of birth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185 "2017-03-02T07:14:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/21 "2017-03-02T22:55:12Z")
> [@Arrendajo](#): > > Jeez we had a guy at my work who was almost paperless. > … But it seems to me, in this case he chose to abandon his paperwork. There probably was a birth certificate, school records, immunization certificates, etc. The fun part would be proving after decades that those alternate named documents belonged with you. Plus it does sound odd - you would think the guy had at least a legacy drivers license in his new name, from years ago when the requirements to get one were less onerous. Did he use a different SSN when he moved west, or did he obtain a second one? Did he retire and apply with his original name, based on his paperwork, only to have to fight to connect it to his recent job? (Was this about hooking together old and new SSN contributions?) So many questions. Too bad there aren’t any details. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/22 "2017-03-02T23:37:02Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Well, certainly in Britain I.D. is theoretically required from those under 18; there are notices in every such shop or pub — and it is a sour point that under-5-yr-olds cannot drink alcohol at home — and clubbing is a separate matter; but thing is, although I no longer go to pubs since they stopping smoking, I’ve never _once_ heard an adult being challenged. One just goes to the bar and they serve whatever you want. About ten years ago I almost was not permitted to go into a bar because my ID had expired a couple weeks previous (I had just turned 33 or 34 and forgot my ID was up for renewal.) I eventually convinced the bouncer to let me in (even back then I was bald and there was no mistaking I was over 21), but it’s almost absurd how strict some places are. I think part of it is management just doesn’t want people making judgment calls and just institutes a “no exceptions” policy to avoid any possible trouble. Or if they do allow judgment calls, it’s very expansive ones like “We card anyone under 40” (a not uncommon sign I see at places that sell/serve alcohol.) That said, when you’re on the cusp of the drinking age and living in a college town, you kind of pick up as to which places are willing to bend the rules a little bit or don’t even ask, so the policies are all over the map. I certainly was able to get into bars or get alcoholic drinks at restaurants without even a fake ID when I was 19 and 20, but you kind of had to know where to go. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/23 "2017-03-03T00:56:30Z")
Suppose you looked like the Doctor from doctor who. (a white British man). You settle down in LA. (why not). Eventually, someone reports you to immigration, and you are unable to prove you are a citizen. They want to deport you for being an illegal immigrant - but _where_. Let’s say you don’t make it easy for them and admit where (or when) you are from. The British government says they have no records of you, and nor does any other national government. _Where_ can the INS send you? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/24 "2017-03-03T01:03:00Z")
Ah, the straight dope has addressed this before, here : [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-654408.html](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-654408.html) It seems that if you don’t admit to a home country and they can’t figure it out from your fingerprints or associates, you can’t be deported. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/25 "2017-03-03T13:50:00Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > You need I.D. to enter a bar ? > [@Crotalus](#): > > I am 63 years old and have white hair, so I don’t. But many younger people do, in the US. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Presumably neither of you looked like you might be 12 years old. Fun story. My step-mother was ID’d at 90 years old in a Boise Airport snack bar. She didn’t look a day over 87. The server was very apologetic, but apparently the rule is if someone (my dad) orders an alcoholic drink and the person with them does not order their own drink, the server must ID that person too. To avoid age discrimination complaints, it applies to everyone. (!) No exceptions. Fortunately, they’d already needed ID to get through security. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/26 "2017-03-03T17:48:05Z")
Here in Taiwan or in Japan, you couldn’t do it. You need to have a family registration if you are Japanese or a passport and a number of other documents if you are not. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/27 "2017-03-03T19:39:40Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Fun story. My step-mother was ID’d at 90 years old in a Boise Airport snack bar. She didn’t look a day over 87. > > The server was very apologetic, but apparently the rule is if someone (my dad) orders an alcoholic drink and the person with them does not order their own drink, the server must ID that person too. To avoid age discrimination complaints, it applies to everyone. (!) No exceptions. Fortunately, they’d already needed ID to get through security. I’m 65 and have been asked to provide ID in any number of places in various states when I’ve tried to buy a beer. That’s why I got a passport card I can put in my wallet so I don’t have to carry my passport around with me all the time since my other forms of ID don’t have my birthdate on it. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/28 "2017-03-04T13:52:20Z")
Back in the days when there were no pictures on drivers licenses - my 18-year-old brother used to give his license to his 15-year-old friend to buy alcohol. My brother was 18 but only 5’6" and looked about 14; his friend was 6’2" ectomorph with a pronounced chin who looked about 20. It reduced the hassle factor. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/29 "2017-03-05T01:36:46Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Back in my grandparents’ day, the only documentation any of them had were the immigration records and the immigration official took their word for it. I think my Aunt (not a migrant, but born overseas), was documented by the family Bible. Which had, as was the tradition in some parts of the USA, the names and dates of her recent ancesters. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/30 "2017-03-05T01:40:01Z")
When John and Judy Belushi got married on a whim in Colorado he had no ID on him (he was known for not carrying an ID or cash); they got a letter from a local judge saying it was okay to marry them, the judge was able to recognize John from SNL. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/31 "2017-03-05T01:42:36Z")
Old stories aside, if they land in remotely modern day USA unless they manufacture some ID, i’d say they are not getting married. At least not a government accepted marriage ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/32 "2017-03-05T17:33:26Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Old stories aside, if they land in remotely modern day USA > unless they manufacture some ID, i’d say they are not getting married. > At least not a government accepted marriage So is a religious marriage (minister agrees to marry them) legally a marriage if they don’t get a state license? Plus, I assume if the oddball does not have any ID, is not in the system, (or ID’s as someone from 120 years ago thanks to WWI fingerprints?) then they cannot be deported anyway since ther is no place to deport them to? ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/33 "2017-03-05T19:31:54Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > So is a religious marriage (minister agrees to marry them) legally a marriage if they don’t get a state license? > > Plus, I assume if the oddball does not have any ID, is not in the system, (or ID’s as someone from 120 years ago thanks to WWI fingerprints?) then they cannot be deported anyway since ther is no place to deport them to? That is partially up to personal opinion From a US law legal aspect, they can not be legally married because they can not get the documents to do so because they can not prove identity From a church law aspect, depending on denomination, probably any marriage joined by the church is legal. But in the US at least the only place that would hold water is in the church. As far as God is concerned, if the two people just stood out in a field exchanged vows and told God they wish to be married, i’m pretty sure God would say, works for me. God of course holds no weight in a US court of law, so the couple would not be entitled to married tax filing and other legal system type stuff, and the church law would claim they are living in sin. As far as deportation goes, one had better pray that one can be convincing of a place to be deported to. Otherwise you will find yourself detained for a very very very long time, and you will not get to see your bride to be ever again, because it is much more interesting to permanently detain a time traveler who could be a grave threat to national security than to deport some guy back to say Argentina The US Government has agencies full of very odd people that find an identityless historyless TIMELESS persons very disconcerting. I am assuming these people have done something special to make them stand out and be noticed? because no one notices a guy with no ID generally, they wont know he does not have an ID because there is normally no reason to ask him. Asking for a marriage license and saying oh i dont have an ID with me isn’t exactly a red flag to call ICE/INS let alone any black box agency looking for time bandits because people being generally idiots (my self included) show up with no ID all the time at places they need one. I think you should start your own thread with this aspect, it could make for a good sci-fi suspense thriller story 😃 In Love - Out of Time A pair of love struck time travellers pursued by government agencies A SD© original Series ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/34 "2017-03-05T19:43:12Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > So is a religious marriage (minister agrees to marry them) legally a marriage if they don’t get a state license? Depends on state law. If a state recognizes common-law marriage, as some do, then the ceremony would be more evidence of intent. If a state requires a license, then [no license may equal no legal marriage](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/marriage-license_n_2345542.html). There are some ministers who will marry without a license, or [are suing for the right to do so](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/01/minister-sues-right-marriages-without-licenses/78182022/), but most ministers I think want to see the piece of paper first. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/35 "2017-03-05T23:58:55Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Depends on state law. If a state recognizes common-law marriage, as some do, then the ceremony would be more evidence of intent. If a state requires a license, then [no license may equal no legal marriage](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/marriage-license_n_2345542.html). > > There are some ministers who will marry without a license, or [are suing for the right to do so](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/01/minister-sues-right-marriages-without-licenses/78182022/), but most ministers I think want to see the piece of paper first. My minister was cool to marry members of his church, but did not like marrying strangers at all. Because (in our system), he had a legal (punishable) obligation not to create bigamous marriages. That’s the kind of thing that creates an incentive to want to see all the documentation in place before the wedding ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/36 "2017-03-06T01:01:30Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > As far as deportation goes, one had better pray that one can be convincing of a place to be deported to. > Otherwise you will find yourself detained for a very very very long time, and you will not get to see your bride to be ever again, because it is much more interesting to permanently detain a time traveler who could be a grave threat to national security than to deport some guy back to say Argentina At least in U.S. law, the Supreme Court ruled in [Zadvydas v. Davis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadvydas_v._Davis) that the feds cannot indefinitely detain aliens under an order of deportation whom no other country would accept. (Zadvydas was born of Lithuanian parents in a displaced-persons camp in Germany, but he was not a citizen of either Germany or Lithuania and neither would accept him. A consolidated case involved a Cambodian citizen whom Cambodia refused to accept because they didn’t have a treaty in place.) A couple of thousand aliens we want to deport get released into the U.S. every year ([cite](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-mostly-right-about-countries-refusing/)) because their home country won’t accept them and the U.S. can’t hold them any longer. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/37 "2017-03-06T01:18:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Most of us are aware that the US has fairly strict drinking laws compared to much of the world. There are some places I’ve been to here in the US where it’s a completely no-exceptions policy. I watched someone well into his 60s being asked for ID at an airport bar and not being served, despite his protestations, until he produced his ID. I’m almost 42, bald, and in no way could pass for someone under 21, and I still get asked for ID about a quarter of the time I buy alcohol. (Though mostly in grocery stores, not in bars. Maybe one time out of fifty there, but I tend to go to bars where they know me.) I hold the liquor license for a local bar restaurant as the resident agent. In fairness to bar owners some high volume bars, especially with a youngish crowd demographic will card everyone at times of high activity. The penalties in the US for serving minors are swift and severe and can put you out of business so fast it will make your head spin regardless of your business size. Better to annoy (or flatter) a few 40+ people than risk your license. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/38 "2017-03-06T04:59:37Z")
I had a friend who went bald in high school and the police would use him to sting places that served or sold alcohol. At 20 he did look (to us) like he was in his late 30s. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/39 "2017-03-06T07:24:27Z")
This problem affects many hundreds of thousands of “hill people” in Thailand. Several groups (incl. Akha, Karen, Lahu, Lisu, Hmong, Yao) have no identity cards and consequently cannot get passports, house registrations, drivers’ licenses; they cannot legally get married, open a bank account, get a formal job, or even attend public school; they are subject to arrest any time they venture out from their “hills.” These are not all “illegal aliens”: most were born in Thailand; their ancestors may have lived in Thailand for many generations. One told me what obtaining an identity card would cost; I don’t remember exactly but it was very expensive by Thai standards, perhaps $3000 for a “fake” ID, or $25,000 for a “real” ID. (I’ve no idea what the difference is between the “fake” and “real” ID card — perhaps how high-placed the bribed official is?) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185/40 "2017-03-06T08:09:18Z")
My father was born and raised in the coal regions in rural western Pennsylvania. Record keeping wasn’t great, or maybe his (nearly hillbilly) parents were lax about such things. I’ve been told that in the 50s, when he and my mother applied for a marriage license (here in the Philly suburbs) they applied to the state for a copy of his birth certificate and Harrisburg apparently didn’t have one (or at least couldn’t find one). He had to swear (I assume to a notary) as to who his parents were, when and where he was born, etc., and the state then issued a birth certificate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-you-tried-to-legally-marry-somebody-with-no-identification-or-proof-of-birth/781185.md?page=3)