# What would have been required to win in Vietnam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466 "2014-11-12T18:06:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/101 "2014-11-16T01:47:54Z")
> [@Phu\_Cat](#): > > Why didn’t we win? We were winning when I left, or at least I thought we were. That’s part of the problem: you were lied to. So were the civilians back home. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/102 "2014-11-16T15:11:33Z")
I really doubt that switching to massive numbers, instead of using small Special Forces units, helped. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/103 "2014-11-17T15:18:48Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > …Allow me to demonstrate just how remarkably poor of an argument this is: if Mississippi were to reintroduce chattel slavery tomorrow, nobody would actually do anything to stop them from doing so. Sure, the US fought the bloodiest war in its history over the issue 150 years ago, but whatever, that was then. This is now. Chattel slavery is the best example you can come up with? Would Mississippi still be a member of the U.S. when it reintroduces chattel slavery? If so, then federal laws would still apply. In 1860, both sides of the future conflict actually hated each other. Shots fired wouldn’t be far behind. That was then. If a majority of California voters actually voted to leave the Union and reject the laws of the U.S., there may be a vocal reaction from the other states but who is actually going to demand that we the people go to war with California, or with Mexico? I don’t know of a single person who would go to war over California. Trade would continue. People would still buy the crops grown in California. California would still buy products made in the U.S… Hollyweird movies would still be produced and viewed worldwide. Neighboring states might cut off electrical power to CA but CA would still be able to drain the Colorado river. This is now. Are you going to call your two U.S. Senators and your U.S. Congressman and demand that the Marines return to the Halls of Montezuma? I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/104 "2014-11-17T19:09:28Z")
> [@Phu\_Cat](#): > > [SIZE=“3”]Why didn’t we win? We were winning when I left, or at least I thought we were. What level did you serve? How much of the big picture did you have a chance to see? > [@](#): > > Pilots were required to fly the same “route package” going north making them easier targets for anti-aircraft fire. I know that there were various restrictions, but my understanding of route package was that this was something which the US military developed to delineate areas of responsibility between the air force and navy. If so, this would not seem to be a good example of having our hands tied. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/105 "2014-11-17T20:47:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Chattel slavery is the best example you can come up with? Would Mississippi still be a member of the U.S. when it reintroduces chattel slavery? If so, then federal laws would still apply. Seriously? Would California still be a state in the Union when it decided to secede? I hate to break it to you, but the right of states to secede from the Union was settled 150 years ago. Same laws apply. > [@doorhinge](#): > > If a majority of California voters actually voted to leave the Union and reject the laws of the U.S., there may be a vocal reaction from the other states but who is actually going to demand that we the people go to war with California, or with Mexico? The majority of the voters in California don’t override the federal rights of the minority in California; they don’t get to secede. Again, this issue was settled 150 years ago. The reason I said Obama and/or Congress is that even were this to occur in bizzaro-world, the President acting in his capacity as commander in chief ordering federal troops to California (or rather to leave their barracks in California, honestly) would be enough to put an end to such silliness. I can’t picture Mexico wanting to get near this mess with a ten foot pole, so don’t see them doing anything but saying thanks for thinking of us, but no thanks to anyone in California wanting to reunite it with Mexico. If Mexico stays out, there’s nobody for Congress to declare war on, as a declaration of war on California is a _de facto_ recognition of its secession, and the position of the federal government would be to not recognize secession, only insurrection and rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/106 "2014-11-17T21:26:14Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Seriously? Would California still be a state in the Union when it decided to secede? I hate to break it to you, but the right of states to secede from the Union was settled 150 years ago. Same laws apply. > > The majority of the voters in California don’t override the federal rights of the minority in California; they don’t get to secede. Again, this issue was settled 150 years ago. The reason I said Obama and/or Congress is that even were this to occur in bizzaro-world, the President acting in his capacity as commander in chief ordering federal troops to California (or rather to leave their barracks in California, honestly) would be enough to put an end to such silliness. I can’t picture Mexico wanting to get near this mess with a ten foot pole, so don’t see them doing anything but saying thanks for thinking of us, but no thanks to anyone in California wanting to reunite it with Mexico. If Mexico stays out, there’s nobody for Congress to declare war on, as a declaration of war on California is a _de facto_ recognition of its secession, and the position of the federal government would be to not recognize secession, only insurrection and rebellion. The residents of California would have already discussed secession before they voted on the issue. Assuming the vote was in favor of secession, the voters would have already rejected the laws of the U.S. government. Lawsuits - probably. Force of arms - not likely. Hasn’t La Raza, and several other organizations, been demanding that the territory of California be returned to its rightful Mexican control? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/107 "2014-11-17T21:42:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Trade would continue. Taxes wouldn’t. California represents ~15% of federal taxes and is the #1 tax output in the entire Union. 100+ trillion dollars in the budget per annum. Net. That’s almost like real money. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/108 "2014-11-17T21:47:21Z")
To put that in perspective : I just checked, and the Department of Education drains a mere 14 trillion bucks. All of it, all states totalled. Oh, right, right winger. Well, the DOD’s budget is 500 trillion, then. Wanna be doing with one fifth less ? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/109 "2014-11-18T01:43:08Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > What level did you serve? How much of the big picture did you have a chance to see? I know that there were various restrictions, but my understanding of route package was that this was something which the US military developed to delineate areas of responsibility between the air force and navy. If so, this would not seem to be a good example of having our hands tied. I referenced it earlier - but I do recommend picking up one of Broughton’s books. You can get Going Downtown for $10.00 on the Kindle, for example:’ [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J86FUL6?btkr=1](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J86FUL6?btkr=1) > [@](#): > > Broughton, a Korean War ace, flew 102 missions in Vietnam and was vice-commander of a fighter wing. His suspenseful descriptions here of air combat in both wars is unsurpassed. The emphasis is on the extraordinary restrictions imposed on American pilots in the latter conflict and how they responded. When two of his pilots inadvertently strafed a Soviet freighter in 1967, Broughton tried to shield them from official ire by destroying the gun-camera record of the event. All three pilots were charged by their commanding general with conspiracy against the U.S. government and kept in the isolation ward of the psychiatric facility at Clark airbase in the Philippines. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/110 "2014-11-18T03:31:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The residents of California would have already discussed secession before they voted on the issue. Assuming the vote was in favor of secession, the voters would have already rejected the laws of the U.S. government. > > Lawsuits - probably. Force of arms - not likely. I can provide eleven examples of states not being allowed to secede. Can you provide any examples of it happening? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/111 "2014-11-18T03:46:36Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > To put that in perspective : I just checked, and the Department of Education drains a mere 14 trillion bucks. All of it, all states totalled. Where did you come up with that figure? The budget for the Department of Education was $71,900,000,000 in 2013 (one half of one percent of fourteen trillion dollars). The budget for the entire Federal government was $3,800,000,000,000. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/112 "2014-11-18T08:45:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Where did you come up with that figure? The budget for the Department of Education was $71,900,000,000 in 2013 (one half of one percent of fourteen trillion dollars). The budget for the entire Federal government was $3,800,000,000,000. Correct - I pulled it from [here](http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/history/index.html): that was the total state funding :smack:. And yeah, I used trillion for billion, too :smack::smack:. Still, the general point stands. California is a huge cash cow for the US. It’s not going nowhere without a fight. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/113 "2014-11-18T16:09:05Z")
notquitekarpov: > [@](#): > > As a side issue, can anyone else think of another Head of Government, apart from Lon Nol, whose name is a palindrome? If you’re willing to accept some degree of Bible as history, there’s King Asa of Judah. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/114 "2014-11-18T17:35:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can provide eleven examples of states not being allowed to secede. > > Can you provide any examples of it happening? You did provide eleven examples or you are willing to provide eleven examples? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/115 "2014-11-18T18:05:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can provide eleven examples of states not being allowed to secede. > > Can you provide any examples of it happening? The Restored Government of Virginia successfully seceded in 1861. > **[Restored Government of Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restored_Government_of_Virginia)** > > The Restored (or Reorganized) Government of Virginia was the Unionist government of Virginia during the American Civil War (1861–1865) in opposition to the government which had approved Virginia's seceding from the United States and joining the new Confederate States of America. Each state government regarded the other as illegitimate. The Restored Government attempted to assume de facto control of the Commonwealth's northwest with the help of the Union Army but was only partly successful. It ... [http://www.wvhumanities.org/Statehood/reorganized.htm](http://www.wvhumanities.org/Statehood/reorganized.htm) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/116 "2014-11-18T21:08:55Z")
**dooghinge** , it looks like you’re being deliberately disingenuous. Any reason for that? Eleven states attempted to secede from the US. They declared themselves an independent nation. They were not allowed by the rest of the US to do so. And please explain how you think the Restored Government of Virginia seceded, and from which nation. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/117 "2014-11-19T05:50:55Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **dooghinge** , it looks like you’re being deliberately disingenuous. Any reason for that? > > Eleven states attempted to secede from the US. They declared themselves an independent nation. They were not allowed by the rest of the US to do so. > > And please explain how you think the Restored Government of Virginia seceded, and from which nation. Disingenuous? Did you read the supplied links? Actually, the people comprising the area that is known as West “by God” Virginia seceded twice. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/118 "2014-11-19T05:53:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The Restored Government of Virginia successfully seceded in 1861. And did they secede from the United States? The answer is no, they did not. So your point has no point. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/119 "2014-11-19T05:55:33Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You did provide eleven examples or you are willing to provide eleven examples? When I wrote “I can” I meant “I can”. When I mean “I did” I write “I did” and when I mean “I am willing to” I write “I am willing to”. It’s a pretty simple system. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466/120 "2014-11-19T06:13:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And did they secede from the United States? The answer is no, they did not. So your point has no point. Yes, the residents of West “By God” Virginia did secede, along with the rest of Virginia, from the U.S.A., and then West Virginia seceded from Virginia and the C.S.A… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-been-required-to-win-in-vietnam/704466.md?page=7)