# What would have happened if Jesus hadn't been crucified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907 "2002-12-11T01:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/41 "2002-12-11T17:30:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Meatros_ > > Then what was radical about Jesus? Why was he picked to be followed? Probably the most radical and attractive aspects of his ministry were his rejections of cold legalisms and ritual purity in favor of a more compassionate and inclusive philosophy. Who a rabbi, associated with, ate with, or even touched had the potential to render him “unclean” by his contemorary standards. Jesus said to hell with it, and waded right into the thick of the most desperate and “unclean” people. This wasn’t just a “nice” thing to do in Jesus’ culture, it was actually seen as unclean and immoral. Dining with prostitutes and tax collectors was an unspeakably shocking thing for a rabbi to do. “Healing” was also highly ritualized. It was believed that afflicted people were being punished by God for something, and were therefore marginalized and isolated as being morally unfit to associate with. “Healing” represented a spiritual exercise rather than a physical one. It did not mean to cure the physical affliction, (there is a different word for cure) but to heal the soul, to accept someone as a “clean” person. This process was to be done only by priests (for a fee of course) and poor people basically had no chance. Jesus just went out willy-nilly “healing” anyone who asked, which undermined priestly authority and also made Jesus himself unclean. This, IMO, is the true mark of Jesus’ appeal and his heroism. He put his own reputation and status on the line. he forced people either to accept the “unclean” people that Jesus ministered to, or to reject Jesus himself. Whenever Jesus had a choice between law and compassion, he always chose compassion. This obviously would have won him tremendous devotion and loyalty from the outcasts and the poor. In addition, he doubtlessly had a remarkable personal charisma and a profound and memorable oratorical style. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Steve wright_ > > And, if Jesus was a threat to public order in Judaea, it was only as a result of his conflict with the Jewish religious authorities - which did go a little bit further than simply debating the Torah. So, if the scribes and the Pharisees hadn’t been opposed to him, there would have been no legal pretext for His execution. He was executed for causing a disturbance at the temple during Passover. The Romans were exceptionally nervous during Passover because Jerusalem was packed with thousands of extra people at that time. The Romans were greatly outnumbered and they did not want even a hint of civil unrest. Anybody causing a stir such as Jesus did was quickly and routinely taken away and crucified as a warning and a deterrent. There was nothing unusual about doing it to Jesus. Casual executions were part of the _Pax Romana_. The gospels’ attempts to infer a Jewish led impetus for the execution of Jesus was born of an attempt to minimize Roman culpability. They were, after all, trying to convert ROMANS. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/42 "2002-12-11T18:41:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Probably the most radical and attractive aspects of his ministry were his rejections of cold legalisms and ritual purity in favor of a more compassionate and inclusive philosophy. Who a rabbi, associated with, ate with, or even touched had the potential to render him “unclean” by his contemorary standards. > \*\* This, however, is really not a big deal. A person who was _tamei_ (“unclean” for lack of a better English translation) could not go to the Temple grounds, nor eat from sacrificial or consecrated foods. Otherwise, however, being _tamei_ had no effect on a person’s life. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/43 "2002-12-11T19:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Zev Steinhardt_ > > This, however, is really not a big deal. A person who was tamei (“unclean” for lack of a better English translation) could not go to the Temple grounds, nor eat from sacrificial or consecrated foods. Otherwise, however, being tamei had no effect on a person’s life. Which supports my assertion that he was not doing or teaching anything radical enough to warrant a death sentence from the Sanhedrin. ---
**Author:** ![martin\_ibn\_martin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@martin\_ibn\_martin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martin_ibn_martin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/44 "2002-12-11T19:09:32Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Nerrie \* \*\*I was wondering, assuming no Christianity, what the state of the world’s religions would be. I, too, thought that maybe Islam would fill the void, but didn’t Islam arise from Christianity? That being the case, if Christianity was not as widespread, surely Mohammad may not have taken the path he did? N. Harry Turtledove, one of my favorite Sci-Fi authors has examined sort of the opposite question. Whst would have happened the the Byzantine Empire without the rise of Islam? In “Agent of Byzantium”, “Mahmood” is one of the most beloved Saints and liturgists of the Church. His best known statement is “There is no God but God, and Jesus is His Son”. Saint Mahmood finished his days in a monastary in Spain. I highly reccomend nearly of Turtledove’s Alternate fiction. Martin ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/45 "2002-12-11T19:50:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Which supports my assertion that he was not doing or teaching anything radical enough to warrant a death sentence from the Sanhedrin. \*\* Not necessarily ture. Even if being _tamei_ had little effect on a person in his daily life, it is still a _halachic_ ruling that, if ruled upon by the Sanhedrin could cause a death sentence to a sage who ruled otherwise. In Jesus’ case, there’s no evidence that the matter went that far (as to have a formal Sanhedrin ruling on the matter) and that Jesus was warned to stop teaching as such ( a necessary pre-condicdtion for a death penalty). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/46 "2002-12-11T20:27:44Z")
> [@](#): > > In Jesus’ case, there’s no evidence that the matter went that far (as to have a formal Sanhedrin ruling on the matter) and that Jesus was warned to stop teaching as such ( a necessary pre-condicdtion for a death penalty). Well, Zev, I don’t know as “there’s no evidence” – though I certainly don’t expect you to hold this as, uh, “Gospel” : > [@](#): > > When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2 “You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.” 3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 and they conspired to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. 5 But they said, “Not during the festival, or there may be a riot among the people.” (Matthew 26:1-5) > > 57 Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, in whose house the scribes and the elders had gathered. 58 But Peter was following him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest; and going inside, he sat with the guards in order to see how this would end. 59 Now the chief priests and the whole council were looking for false testimony against Jesus so that they might put him to death, 60 but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward 61 and said, "This fellow said, "I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’ " 62 The high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer? What is it that they testify against you?” 63 But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath before the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has blasphemed! Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66 What is your verdict?” They answered, “He deserves death.” 67 Then they spat in his face and struck him; and some slapped him, 68 saying, “Prophesy to us, you Messiah! Who is it that struck you?” (Matthew 26:57-68) > > 13 First they took him to Annas, who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year. … 19 Then the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and about his teaching. 20 Jesus answered, “I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret. 21 Why do you ask me? Ask those who heard what I said to them; they know what I said.” 22 When he had said this, one of the police standing nearby struck Jesus on the face, saying, “Is that how you answer the high priest?” 23 Jesus answered, “If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong. But if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?” 24 Then Annas sent him bound to Caiaphas the high priest. (John 18:13, 19-24, with material about Peter’s denial and an earlier inadvertent prophecy by Caiaphas omitted.) One of the points made in regard to the whole story of Jesus’s arrest and trial is that all four Gospels agree in having him go to the Garden of Gethsemane, across the Kidron Valley from the city of Jerusalem at the time, to pray. It was there that he said to God the Father, “If it be possible, Lord, let this cup be taken from me. Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.” The key point here, as noted by a friend to me years ago, is that in Jesus’s day and to a large extent still today, the land beyond the rise on which Gethsemane sits is wilderness. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for Jesus to have bugged out over the hill and out into the wilderness, rather than going to his arrest and what he was at least fairly sure at this point was going to be his death. He chose to stay. ---
**Author:** ![LuthAeron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3e96dc/32.png) [@LuthAeron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LuthAeron)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/47 "2002-12-11T23:19:56Z")
What if he hadn’t, I beleive the question was originally… though I might have lost it a while ago amidst the wonderful responces… what would have happened if Jesus hadn’t chosen to stay?😕 ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/48 "2002-12-12T00:24:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The fact is, that there are simply no OT predictions whatsoever about Jesus. Most verses or passages which Christians purport to be prophesies of Jesus have been yanked out of a very specific historical and literary context and twisted to fit a Christian one. > > A \*\* What about Psalm 22? “They pierced my hands and my feet”. This sounds like crucifiction to me. David wasn’t crucified as far as know. Also Isaiah 53. “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteen him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he \*\*was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”\*\*verses 4-6 This sounds pretty much like Jesus dying for our sins to me. It matters not that it’s listed as past tense. It’s a done deal from eternity past as far as the Father is concerned. No one else was ever wounded for our transgressions. No one else had all our iniquity laid on him. Only Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/49 "2002-12-12T01:24:05Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by martin\_ibn\_martin \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nerrie \* > \*\*I was wondering, assuming no Christianity, what the state of the world’s religions would be. I, too, thought that maybe Islam would fill the void, but didn’t Islam arise from Christianity? That being the case, if Christianity was not as widespread, surely Mohammad may not have taken the path he did? > > N. > > Harry Turtledove, one of my favorite Sci-Fi authors has examined sort of the opposite question. Whst would have happened the the Byzantine Empire without the rise of Islam? > > In “Agent of Byzantium”, “Mahmood” is one of the most beloved Saints and liturgists of the Church. His best known statement is “There is no God but God, and Jesus is His Son”. Saint Mahmood finished his days in a monastary in Spain. > > I highly reccomend nearly of Turtledove’s Alternate fiction. > > Martin \*\* I’ve read a different Turtledove book (guns of the south) and I have to say that I recommend his alternate fiction as well. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/50 "2002-12-12T01:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*What about Psalm 22? “They pierced my hands and my feet”. This sounds like crucifiction to me. David wasn’t crucified as far as know. > > Also Isaiah 53. “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteen him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he \*\*was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”\*\*verses 4-6 > > This sounds pretty much like Jesus dying for our sins to me. It matters not that it’s listed as past tense. It’s a done deal from eternity past as far as the Father is concerned. No one else was ever wounded for our transgressions. No one else had all our iniquity laid on him. Only Jesus. \*\* I think what Dio is aiming for is a **specific** prophecy. The first passage you suggested (Psalm 22) sounds pretty on the money in that regard. But I have to ask, what’s the whole passage? Is this taken out of context? The second passage (Isaiah 53) could apply to anyone who would be a savior, also it looks pretty interpretable to me. You are looking at the passage from a very Christian standpoint (nothing wrong with that), but if you take a step back, you might realize it’s a little vague. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/51 "2002-12-12T02:17:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LuthAeron \* > \*\*It is established in the Bible that God made man with free will, and that He would let us use it. \*\* Actually I don’t think this is true at all. My understanding is that free will is never discussed or even alluded to in the Bible, but rather was a notion conceived much later to explain away some of the inconsistencies in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/52 "2002-12-12T08:36:23Z")
I wouldn’t expect Christ’s _moral_ teaching to be wholly original and revolutionary. The moral laws of the universe are set up by God, just like the physical laws, and, like the physical laws, can be worked out by the exercise of human intelligence. Lots of non-Christian people have worked out those laws and led perfectly moral lives, without input from Christianity. For me, what distinguishes Christ’s teaching is the emphasis on the personal relationship with God. Christ is God with a human face; not a remote Creator whose face can’t be shown, but an ordinary human being that you can talk to every day. It’s that reconciliation of the mundane with the ineffably divine that speaks to me in my soul; God wants us to come to him, but is willing to meet us halfway; not as Creator, Judge and Father, but as a friend. That, and the recognition, at the very heart of Christianity, that love is all that matters. There is no need for rules, no need for organized priesthood; all we need to do, as Christians, is love God, realize that He loves us, and love each other. Everything else proceeds from that: “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/53 "2002-12-12T14:04:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*all we need to do, as Christians, is love God, realize that He loves us, and love each other. Everything else proceeds from that: “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” \*\* [segue to Monte Python] Oh, wait! That’s _three_ commandments! Very well. We have _three_ commandments. They are: love God, realize that He loves us, and love each other but not in the physical sense. **Augh!. That’s four!** … We have _four_ commandments… no …Of the four commandments…um…Among our arsenal of commandments are the following… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/54 "2002-12-12T14:13:44Z")
Calm down, **bnorton**. The “realize He loves us” bit is my own, unauthorized, interpolation. The “two commandments” bit comes from here (Matthew 22. 35-40): > [@](#): > > Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. … which gets quoted so often in these debates that I kind of assume people will be familiar with it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/55 "2002-12-12T20:02:19Z")
**His** , it’s been noted by Biblical scholars since the second century (if not earlier – see the Epistle to the Hebrews) that there are a lot of passages in the Old Testament that certainly _look_ to a Christian like they prophesy who Jesus was and what He did and suffered through. However, many of these speak of God (who in the Jewish view did _not_ become incarnate as the stepson of a carpenter) or of the Jewish people, or have other points to make. In this last category is the famous Emmanuel prophecy from Isaiah: > [@](#): > > 10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign of the Lord your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test. 13 Then Isaiah said: "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary mortals, that you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. 15 He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. (Isaiah 7:10-16, NRSV) In short, King Ahaz of Judah is being threatened by the Kings of Syria and Israel, and to hearten him, God, speaking through Isaiah, points out a young woman of the court, says that she’s pregnant, and will have a son whom she will name Emmanuel (which means “God [is] with us”), and that by the time that baby boy is old enough to know good from bad, the two kings of whom Ahaz is afraid will be pushing up daisies in their graves. And this in fact happened. But, interestingly, the word Isaiah used for “young woman” is _almah_, which in later years took on the connotation “virgin” or “(unmarried) maiden.” And we believ that the son whom a Virgin bore several hundred years later became God With Us in a very special way. Anyway, this sort of secondary meaning invested in scripture is called “typology” and it is hotly disputed in Bible-scholarly circles to what extent typology is valid. From the perspective of the Jews, the _only_ prophecies that literally predict the Messiah were **not** fulfilled in Jesus – they are the sorts of ones that led them to expect a person who would lead them militarily and establish a kingdom of righteousness, not a person who would teach righteousness and compassion and then humbly go to the Cross. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/56 "2002-12-12T21:28:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by His4ever_ > What about Psalm 22? “They pierced my hands and my feet”. This sounds like crucifiction to me. David wasn’t crucified as far as know. > > Also Isaiah 53. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteen him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."verses 4-6 > > This sounds pretty much like Jesus dying for our sins to me. It matters not that it’s listed as past tense. It’s a done deal from eternity past as far as the Father is concerned. No one else was ever wounded for our transgressions. No one else had all our iniquity laid on him. Only Jesus. Meatros and polycarp have addressed some of this already, but let me respond to your specific quotations. The 22nd _Psalm_ is the lament of a person (not David) suffering from physical illness. At that time, illness was considered to be sign of God’s displeasure. The Psalmist describes his condition and the harrassment and mocking he receives on account of it. The “piercing” of hands and feet is part of the abuse such people used to recieve. This line was seized on by later Christian writers because it _seemed_ like it might refer to Jesus. In context of the entire Psalm this is completely unsupportable. The passages from _Isaiah_, are a description of a “servant of the lord” which is a metaphor for Israel itself. The suffering is about the suffering of the Jewish people. The “we” is the rest of the world describing their treatment of the Jews. Here is a more accurate translation of your passage from the Hebrew: > [@](#): > > _Isaiah 53;4-6_ > (4) But in truth, it was our ills that he bore and our pains that he > carried - but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d, and > afflicted! > (5) He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through > our iniquity; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit and through his wounds, we were healed. (6) We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and the Almighty inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all. The narrator is saying that the Jews were punished for the benefit of others and not for anything that they, themselves had done. [Here](http://messiahpage.com/htmldocs/isaiah53.html) is a link which presents a more detailed commentary on the Jewish interpretation of _Isaiah 53_. (which is also where I got the translation) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/57 "2002-12-12T23:49:15Z")
What about the scenario that Jesus might not have died on the cross anyway because maybe he never lived? There’s no real evidence that a man named Jesus ever walked the Earth. If he really did all those miracles wouldn’t historians of the day had written about him? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/58 "2002-12-13T01:09:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by x-ray vision \* > \*\*What about the scenario that Jesus might not have died on the cross anyway because maybe he never lived? There’s no real evidence that a man named Jesus ever walked the Earth. If he really did all those miracles wouldn’t historians of the day had written about him? \*\* I don’t know if I’d go that far. There is some evidence that he was around during that time period, where or not it constitutes “real” evidence I suppose is subjective. If I remember correctly, I believe that Jesus had his name in a few Roman books or some such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/59 "2002-12-13T01:21:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*I don’t know if I’d go that far. There is some evidence that he was around during that time period, where or not it constitutes “real” evidence I suppose is subjective. If I remember correctly, I believe that Jesus had his name in a few Roman books or some such thing. \*\* [The Master Knows All.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_275.html) ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907/60 "2002-12-13T01:30:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*[The Master Knows All.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_275.html) \*\* Ah, yes, he most certainly does. For reference, this is what I was talking about: “The Roman historian Tacitus, writing in his Annals around 110 AD, mentions one “Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius.” The Jewish historian Josephus remarks on the stoning of “James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”” Now, I don’t know if this constitutes “real evidence”, but for my money, it’s good enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-if-jesus-hadnt-been-crucified/141907.md?page=4)