The gospels themselves are pretty good evidence of his existance as several of them were written independantly (see Cecils column on “Who wrote bible?”.
I think it’s fairly well established that he at least EXISTED…it’s everything else that’s up for debate.
Steve Wright - I was just making a reference to an old Monte Python routine about the Spanish Inquisition. If you’re unfamiliar with the sketch, there’s no way to explain it.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Getting back to the OP, then if it was possible for Jesus to say “blow this” and live quietly ever after whittling Nazarene handicraft, then the logical conclusion is that God played dice with the salvation of humanity and won, luckily for us. Had Jesus chosen otherwise, then for God to then simply roll again until one of his “sons” died in some sufficiently impressive manner implies a fundamental randomness which even God is subject to.
Again, I do not wish to appear to indulge in “Christian bashing” but the simpler explanation is that Jesus read the Scriptures and tried to engineer a dramatic enough story, based loosely on their prophecies, to ensure he started a new religion.
I’m not so sure about that. It seems to assume that God wasn’t directly involved with Jesus; which I don’t believe, but it’s a perfectly legitimate belief. In any event, if you take the Christian explanation into consideration then, remember Einstein, God didn’t role dice, he knew Jesus would follow his word.
Why would God be subject to randomness? It’s perfectly possible that he is, but the way I read your post, it seems as though God can not help it-am I reading it right?
“If he knew Jesus would follow his word”, then Jesus effectively had no choice. God knowing which way Jesus would jump is equivalent to stating that God orchestrated a situation such that the being he created would react the way he (God) wanted.
Surely any possibility that Jesus could in some way “refuse” to be the Messiah leaves God looking on nervously, like the gambler watching the roulette wheel? Of course, this is the age old “free will” debate.
And yes, I am putting forward the “atheist” explanation for the beginnings of Christianity, but only as one option amongst several. However, it does necessarily clash with orthodoxy to merely suggest that Jesus exercised some deliberate * intent * to get himself crucified, according to God’s wishes.
I would also say that it is possible (from a Christian standpoint) that Jesus was God.
From an Atheist standpoint, I don’t think it matters whether or not God spoke to him-from an Atheist standpoint He didn’t.
There should be a ** not ** after “does” - sorry.
Of course, I believe this is possible too. But the OP asks about other possible deaths of Jesus resulting from his own free will, which simply becomes God’s will if the two are indivisible and identical - the question then merely becomes “What if God hadn’t sent Jesus * ever *?”.
I realise that the atheist scenario is somewhat irrelevant to the OP, but I think it’s worth pointing out that it appears the * simplest * solution to this old problem, purely in an Occam’s razor kind of way.
I think I read the OP from a far different standpoint; as coming from a non-Christian standpoint, what if Jesus didn’t die, would their still be Christians (if he didn’t die from cruxifiction-if he was still around today, I think everyone would believe).
The way I read the OP, you could substitute a variety of different faiths; What if Moses hadn’t lead the isrealites out of Egypt? Would their be a jewish faith? Basically, what if the Faith founder hadn’t done their “biggest” miracle? Would their still be ____ religion?
That’s how I read the question and after re-reading the OP, I’ve realized that I’m a little of course as to where I’m coming from…So my posts maybe a slight hijack…:smack:
I get the impression that despite his loyal followers, Jesus was not a terribly popular man. More than a few saw him as a threat. Had he not died on the cross, and perhaps instead was given a less harsh punishment for his crimes against the Romans, I think he would have been murdered soon after by someone irate about his actions. In effect he would still have been a religious-political martyr, so it’s likely that Christianity would still have come about.
In Dante’s Inferno, he describes the First Circle of Hell as the abode of un-baptized babies, those who never heard of Christ, and those who had died before Christ. (There were a few exceptions made for folks like Moses, but everybody else who lived before Christ was consigned to the First Circle of Hell.)
Are you saying Dante’s work contradicted the Catholic Church?
My understanding of Catholocism (which, granted, is limited) is that those folks who lived before Jesus obtained forgiveness for their sins through sacrifice. Am I wrong on that matter?
As an aside on this theme, I’d always wondered what the Catholic position would be on people who lived during the 70 years when there was no Temple and hence no sacrifices. Are Mordechai and Esther in Hell according to the Catholics?
Zev Steinhardt
Cite, please?
This might be totally incorrect 
, but I always thought Dante’s work was more political than it was religious. Or at least it was more important in political circles than it was in religious ones…
He would have been playing the Sands in Vegas with Sinatra, Baby, just like all the other classy cats. You dig, Baby? 
A funvariant, if of questionable scholarship,is proposed by Baigant and Lee in “The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail” , and “The Messianic Legacy”
Jesus was crucified, but survived. he lived on, and his children and their mother, Mary Magdelane, left for France with Joseph of Aramathea. There, they founded the Merovingian Dynasty, a line of Monarchs descended from Jesus. The Knights Templar and a shadowy society known as “The Priore de Sion” were founded to protect that family and ensure their eventual return to power.
They present some intriguing argumants, but I am not the Biblical scholar to judge.
Martin
if jesus hadnt been crucified we would not be discussing him
but
Jesus was crucified and so we discuss Him
they had messiah’s by the sackful
only one was intended without any prevail of misinterpretation.
it would have meant god couldn’t carry out his plans
but He did…
i wish i could edit these posts…
for Jesus to have been the Christ he needed to be crucified… or become a sacrifice for sin…once for all for all time.
so if he didnt go the whole road he would not have become the Christ but one of the many who thought they were…before and after the real one.
I would think it rather odd that someone who never lived has affected the life of mankind on this planet more than any other person. Our calendar is dated by His birth. BC and AD. I don’t have any doubt that He lived on earth then and He lives now.
1 John 1:1-4
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.