# What would have happened to Mussolini if he had survived the war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768 "2011-01-24T11:21:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/1 "2011-01-24T11:21:15Z")
If he and his mistress hadn’t been strung up by their heels outside that gas station, what would have happened to him? Would the Allies considered him as bad of a war criminal as his Axis allies? Could he possibly have sued for a separate peace before Germany was defeated? Could he eventually have rehabilitated himself and even emerged as an anti-Communist ally? Just idly wondering, as I don’t see the question as ever having come up here before. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/2 "2011-01-24T13:24:42Z")
There are lampposts in peacetime as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/3 "2011-01-24T14:07:30Z")
Interestingly the only convicted Italian war criminal was Rodolfo Graziani, who was the minister of defense in the rump Italian Social Republic after most of Italy surrendered to the Allies. And that was for the vague crime of Nazi collaboration. He was never prosecuted for the various activities which earned him the nickname “the Butcher of Ethiopia.” And then he only served a few months of his 19 year sentence. For a variety of reasons the Allies decided not to prosecute potential Italian war criminals, even for some fairly horrific things, like poison gas use in Ethiopia. But had he survived I suspect Mussolini would have served as the national scapegoat and he would have received a quick death sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/4 "2011-01-24T14:36:10Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > Interestingly the only convicted Italian war criminal was Rodolfo Graziani, who was the minister of defense in the rump Italian Social Republic after most of Italy surrendered to the Allies. And that was for the vague crime of Nazi collaboration. He was never prosecuted for the various activities which earned him the nickname “the Butcher of Ethiopia.” And then he only served a few months of his 19 year sentence. Pietro Koch was executed after the war for his actions. Mario Roatta was sentenced to life imprisonment (although the sentence was commuted three years later). A bunch more people fled to Argentina to avoid prosecution. But part of the reason there weren’t more arrests of Italian Fascist leaders after the war was because the partisans took care of it, Mussolini wasn’t the only Italian Fascist leader to be captured and hung by partisans. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/5 "2011-01-24T14:51:57Z")
Hmmm, unless I am missing some facts, Graziani could hardly be prosecuted for WWII war crimes for events in Ethiopia that were not part of WWII… ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/6 "2011-01-24T15:05:02Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Hmmm, unless I am missing some facts, Graziani could hardly be prosecuted for WWII war crimes for events in Ethiopia that were not part of WWII… How was the invasion and occupation of Ethiopia not [part of WWII?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Pre-war_events) Haile Selassie’s [appeal to the toothless League of Nations](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQJ1WfJu3fQ) is now historic. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/7 "2011-01-24T15:26:20Z")
[quote=“orcenio, post:6, topic:568768”] How was the invasion and occupation of Ethiopia not [part of WWII?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Pre-war_events) Many people consider WW2 to have begun with Hitler’s Invasion of Poland. Not everyone agrees, of course - some date it to the Japanese occupation of Manchuria. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/8 "2011-01-24T16:54:14Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > How was the invasion and occupation of Ethiopia not [part of WWII?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Pre-war_events) Because most of us date WWII to the declarations of war of 1939. Being traditional and all that. You’ll find typically works on WWII do not include such events, unless they are discussing event **before** the war. Oddly your very cite calls it “Pre War Events.” Else we might profitably roll this all up into The Great War. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/9 "2011-01-24T20:08:18Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Because most of us date WWII to the declarations of war of 1939. Being traditional and all that. You’ll find typically works on WWII do not include such events, unless they are discussing event **before** the war. Oddly your very cite calls it “Pre War Events.” > > Else we might profitably roll this all up into The Great War. Yes, it happened before war broke out in Europe (a common, but Eurocentric date), but it also happened after war broke out in the Pacific. I just don’t see how Mussolini’s invasion, occupation and ejection from Ethiopia (by allied forces) falls outside the realm of “part of WWII.” The initial invasion (or [the Abyssinia Crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyssinia_Crisis)) was the start of Italy’s “New Roman Empire.” In fact, ejecting Italy was the [East Africa Campaign](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_African_Campaign_(World_War_II)), just one of many campaigns in the [African theatre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_campaigns_of_World_War_II). True, you can say that the invasion happened before [Poland was attacked](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland) but… what does that mean? Only that **you are limiting the war to Europe** by definition. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/10 "2011-01-24T20:21:43Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Yes, it happened before war broke out in Europe (a common, but Eurocentric date), but it also happened after war broke out in the Pacific. > > I just don’t see how Mussolini’s invasion, occupation and ejection from Ethiopia (by allied forces) falls outside the realm of “part of WWII.” The initial invasion (or [the Abyssinia Crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyssinia_Crisis)) was the start of Italy’s “New Roman Empire.” In fact, ejecting Italy was the [East Africa Campaign](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_African_Campaign_(World_War_II)), just one of many campaigns in the [African theatre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_campaigns_of_World_War_II). > > True, you can say that the invasion happened before [Poland was attacked](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland) but… what does that mean? Only that **you are limiting the war to Europe** by definition. The Spanish Civil War is not considered part of WW2 neither. Even though it is clearly linked to it as well. Not including Italy’s attempt at taking some African territorires hardly sounds like Euro-centrism. Except if you’re trying to force it in. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/11 "2011-01-24T20:28:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Pietro Koch was executed after the war for his actions. Mario Roatta was sentenced to life imprisonment (although the sentence was commuted three years later). A bunch more people fled to Argentina to avoid prosecution. But part of the reason there weren’t more arrests of Italian Fascist leaders after the war was because the partisans took care of it, Mussolini wasn’t the only Italian Fascist leader to be captured and hung by partisans. Interesting, I wasn’t aware of Koch, but it looks like legally he held Austrian/German citizenship by way of his father in addition to his Italian heritage from his mother. From what I can tell, he was tried for his service to the Germans after the fall of Italy. Not for his military service prior to 1943. Which may be why my reference book didn’t mention him. They seem to be considering him a German for purposes of war crimes. A fine line indeed. I agree he should be included with Graziani. But unless I’m wrong Roatta was not tried and convicted by the Allies for war crimes, which would have included his activities in Yugoslava. But instead he was tried by the Italians for dereliction of duty in his defense of Rome, and for the murder of the Rosselli brothers in 1937. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/12 "2011-01-24T20:36:12Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > The Spanish Civil War is not considered part of WW2 neither. Even though it is clearly linked to it as well. Not including Italy’s attempt at taking some African territorires hardly sounds like Euro-centrism. Except if you’re trying to force it in. I’m not trying to force anything. The Allies and Axis did not fight in Spain, [but they did in Ethiopia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_African_Campaign_(World_War_II)). But fine; I’m cool with Ethiopia’s invasion being a “pre-war” event (I’d say it was a precursor). However you can’t then say the occupation and ejection of the Italians were also “not apart of WWII.” That’s absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/13 "2011-01-24T20:40:41Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I’m not trying to force anything. The Allies and Axis did not fight in Spain, [but they did in Ethiopia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_African_Campaign_(World_War_II)). > > But fine; I’m cool with Ethiopia’s invasion being a “pre-war” event. However you can’t then say the occupation and ejection of the Italians were also “not apart of WWII.” That’s absurd. Allies and Axis also fought during the Spanish Civil War. The historical date for the beginning of WW2 is the invasion of Poland. Invasion of Ethopia is out. Not the fighting that happened in East Africa during WW2. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/14 "2011-01-24T20:45:48Z")
Right…Roatta was charged by an Italian court for the murder of Rosselli and his actions in defense of Rome. Ethiopia tried to get Italians prosecuted for war crimes, but the United Nations kept refusing, largely under British pressure. As Richard Pankhurst put it: > [@](#): > > British and other Allied opposition to the trial of Italians accused of war crimes in Ethiopia was based on the repeated Foreign Office argument that the Italo-Ethiopian war of 1935-36, though accompanied by many fascist atrocities, had “no relation” to the European war, which had begun in September 1939, and for which the UN commission had been established. Under British pressure, the commission accepted this contention and used it to exclude Ethiopia from membership, and hence from raising the issue of Badoglio in its deliberations. Ethiopia’s exclusion was, however, inconsistent, in that the British and other Allies accepted Chinese demands for the trial of Japanese accused of having committed crimes in China several years before Mussolini’s invasion of Ethiopia: Ethiopia lacked the “political clout” wielded by the Chinese. and he concludes: > [@](#): > > Post-war Italy was unwilling to face the fact that war crimes had been committed by its nationals in Ethiopia. It was symptomatic that General Guglielmo Nasi, who had been listed as a war criminal, was nominated by the then Italian Government as governor of the Italian Trust territory of Somalia in February 1950, and that this appointment was only withdrawn as a result of international complaint. It was no less symptomatic that it was not until 1996, 60 years after the event, that the Italian Ministry of Defence was finally brought to admit that the Italian Royal Air Force had used poison-gas in Ethiopia. > > The European leaders of the post-World War II international community, for their part, were likewise unprepared to see fellow Europeans punished for crimes against non-Europeans half a decade earlier, and preferred a miscarriage of justice. which I think is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/15 "2011-01-24T20:54:17Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Hmmm, unless I am missing some facts, Graziani could hardly be prosecuted for WWII war crimes for events in Ethiopia that were not part of WWII… The allies went beyond WWII in the war crimes tribunals and included individuals like Julius Streicher for “incitement to murder and extermination.” And his crimes largely took place prior to the war, mostly from 1933-1938. Other individuals whose crimes took place outside the scope of WWII included Hjalmar Schacht for his continual service as either Reich Minister of Economics and/or President of the Reichsbank from 1923-1939. He was acquitted, but he was tried. The allies could and did range beyond WWII when it fit their agendas. And there were discussions of bringing Italians up for their crimes in Ethiopia. But the British vetoed all attempts to do so, not that either the Americans or Russians really pushed the issue. I’ve heard speculation that the British really didn’t want to open the possibility of the scope including colonial actions. Or on review what **Captain Amazing** said. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/16 "2011-01-24T21:07:42Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Not including Italy’s attempt at taking\*\* some African territorires\*\* hardly sounds like Euro-centrism. That’s pretty dismissive; Abyssinia was a sovereign country and [a full fledged member of the League of Nations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations#Italian_invasion_of_Abyssinia). ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/17 "2011-01-24T21:09:18Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > That’s pretty dismissive; Abyssinia was a sovereign country and [a full fledged member of the League of Nations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations#Italian_invasion_of_Abyssinia). Damn, missed the mispel. I meant Ethiopia AND Lybia. So, yes, African territories. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/18 "2011-01-24T21:14:06Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Damn, missed the mispel. I meant Ethiopia AND Lybia. So, yes, African territories. Well Italy invaded Libya before WWI so I don’t know why you are including it, at all, with Mussolini’s invasion of Ethiopia. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/19 "2011-01-24T21:22:34Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Well Italy invaded Libya before WWI so I don’t know why you are including it, at all, with Mussolini’s invasion of Ethiopia. Cause Ethiopia was the continuation of an Italian policy to get some lands in East Africa. I do have to note Lybia doesnt get the free pass to WW2 that Ethiopia seems to have in your book. I have to admit I dont really see the point of this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768/20 "2011-01-24T21:28:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right…Roatta was charged by an Italian court for the murder of Rosselli and his actions in defense of Rome. > > Ethiopia tried to get Italians prosecuted for war crimes, but the United Nations kept refusing, largely under British pressure. As Richard Pankhurst put it: > > and he concludes: > > which I think is accurate. Not only that but it was [only 6 years ago](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4458105.stm) until Italy finally decided to return the [160 ton, 1700-year old, stone obelisk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk_of_Axum) the fascists blatantly looted from [the ancient capital of Axum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum). In 2001, this is what Italy was saying the looted historic monument was: [ > [@](#): > > Then last year Vittorio Sgarbi, an undersecretary in Italy’s Culture Ministry, caused an uproar in Ethiopia when he suggested that the obelisk had become a “naturalised citizen” after 64 years in Italy. ]([BBC NEWS | Europe | Rome obelisk struck by lightning](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2012770.stm))All I can say is… what balls. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-happened-to-mussolini-if-he-had-survived-the-war/568768.md?page=2)