# What would have taken Christianity's place if it had died aborning? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 3, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542 "2008-12-03T18:40:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/21 "2008-12-04T06:00:22Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Or else it wouldn’t have, and there are a lot more wouldn’t have’s. > > For every choice Christianity made, there were multiple other options. Even just rewinding the tape and starting again might have given us other outcomes. This time through Pilate says “Screw it, let 'im go, I don’t like the look of that Barabbas rascal, crucify him instead, I don’t give a shit what the crowd will say.” Judas screws up finding Jesus, 'cause he went to take a leak. Saul doesn’t eat the mushrooms for lunch, and Christianity stays a Jewish cult. > > Once you start knocking off the main characters, you get further and further from the same outcome. Skald has kidnapped Mary, Joseph, Jesus twice and beaten Saul of Tarsus. How 'bout if he drops Ebola in Judea, or nukes Jerusalem?\* At some point there has to be a significant enough change that the end result is different. Even mythology has to have some nucleation point around which it forms. > > I think some other cult - Jewish or not - would have eventually claimed the bulk of the empire, and would remain dominant in it’s descendants today. What cult is pretty random in my opinion. . I personally don’t subscribe to the notion that the mythical Jesus of Nazareth actually existed, but if he did, he was probably just one of many men of the time who were persecuted, prosecuted, and executed for crimes against the state. The only difference is years after his death Jesus (or some unknown he was based on) was martyred, from whence sprung the seeds of Christianity as we know it. How many messiah myths, from how many different cultures, were there before the Story of Jesus? Had the story of Jesus as messiah not taken root, my suspicion is another would have. The details of the origin of the alternate messiah would have been different, but the web woven from it by the men of the day would probably have been the same, with exactly the same outcome. ---
**Author:** ![seodoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seodoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seodoa)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/22 "2008-12-04T06:05:21Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > How many messiah myths, from how many different cultures, were there before the Story of Jesus? Had the story of Jesus as messiah not taken root, my suspicion is another would have. The details of the origin of the alternate messiah would have been different, but the web woven from it by the men of the day would probably have been the same, with exactly the same outcome. Namu Amida-butsu. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/23 "2008-12-04T06:06:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Some other con job. :rolleyes: At least play the GAME if you’re gonna be that way. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/24 "2008-12-04T06:16:42Z")
Wiccans and Druids would rule the world. Pot would be legal, gay marriage would be a non-issue, but we’d probably still have 19th century technology. As Druid-King, I would be benevolent, and schedule orgies in the grove thrice weekly. Hey, we gotta do something, since there ain’t gonna be any SEC football… ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/25 "2008-12-04T06:23:20Z")
All hail the um…Sacred Oak. ---
**Author:** ![kitemaker\_chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e4f/32.png) [@kitemaker\_chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitemaker_chuck)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/26 "2008-12-04T07:09:47Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Wiccans and Druids would rule the world. Pot would be legal, gay marriage would be a non-issue, but we’d probably still have 19th century technology. > > As Druid-King, I would be benevolent, and schedule orgies in the grove thrice weekly. Hey, we gotta do something, since there ain’t gonna be any SEC football… I think that the Wiccans would also be operating a charity called the Make-A-Witch Foundation! ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/27 "2008-12-04T07:13:05Z")
I’m not convinced anything would have taken its place. I imagine we’d have the same pagan mishmash the rest of the world has. Christianity (and Islam, which Christianity surely influenced) are the only evangelical exclusive religions in the world. All other religions acknowledge that there is a place and possible salvation for people of other faiths. Only Christianity and Islam subscribe to the idea that their religion is true for everyone and the only options are to believe or go to hell. And thus they are the only religions that are all that motivated to seek out converts- hence their popularity. It seems like this idea only happened once, and if it hadn’t have happened maybe Europe’s old pagan gods would have evolved much like modern Hinduism. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/28 "2008-12-04T11:08:12Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Only Christianity and Islam subscribe to the idea that their religion is true for everyone and the only options are to believe or go to hell. Underline mine. Not the Catholic church. Promise. That lasted for several centuries but it was actually a political issue and has been recognized as such; it has never been dogma. As for the OP’s question, no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/29 "2008-12-04T11:40:30Z")
I believe we would just say “Zeus” instead of “God” and “Apolo” instead of “Jesus”. People would defend the truth of Ovid’s “Metamorphoses” as being inspired by Zeus himself and whoever didn’t believe that would go to Hades. Greek mythology has been the second most popular religious narrative in the western world after Christianity for ages, and it’s all just replacing a bearded guy for another. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/30 "2008-12-04T12:52:39Z")
> [@Doug\_Bowe](#): > > Which possibly means it would have disappeared. After the distruction of the second temple the Essenes, Sadducees, Zealots and others disappeared. The temple destruction (meaning the first Jewish revolt) didn’t wipe out Christianity (it put the original Jerusalem-based group into a deep hole it never recovered from). It also didn’t wipe out Judaism so badly. Remember that there were more Jews (mostly converts) in Alexandria than in Jerusalem. What really put Judaism behind was the conversion of Jews into Christians. If anything, the various Jewish revolts ensured that some Jewish splinter\* group would dominate over mainstream Judaism. \*E.g., the Judean People’s Front. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/31 "2008-12-04T12:59:12Z")
Oh, I think one of the other middle eastern sects would have become (more) popular among the Roman lower class, and I suspect Rome was on the decline anyway; perhaps wouldn’t affect the Islam moment, and lacking a more-or-less unified front in Western Europe, Islam-- the next wildly popular world religion to spring up-- might have spread much more widely in Europe in the 8th and 9th centuries and people in England would be reciting Arabic a few times a day. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/32 "2008-12-04T15:40:11Z")
I suspect the courses history and Christianity have taken are the results of Skald’s previous threads Skald A: “Say I use my way-back machine to ensure that Jesus is killed by the Romans at a young age instead of living to be the ancient sage we know from our bible”. Skald B: “What if Saul didn’t die of dysentery? Would the Jesus cult have spread to the gentiles? Say I use the way-back machine to take him antibiotics and gatorade” Skald C: “Say I use my way-back machine to destroy the temple during the jewish revolts, denying resurgent Judaism a focal point for their 5th century renaissance. What would take its place?” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/33 "2008-12-04T15:47:41Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Once you start knocking off the main characters, you get further and further from the same outcome. Skald has kidnapped Mary, Joseph, Jesus twice and beaten Saul of Tarsus. How 'bout if he drops Ebola in Judea, or nukes Jerusalem?\* > … > > \*It really worries me when I sound like Skald. Hey, I said I was being EARLY edda Loki, before the flyting at…um…wherever it was that he pissed off Thor for the last time. Anyway, no mass murder for this exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/34 "2008-12-04T15:50:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Wiccans and Druids would rule the world. Pot would be legal, gay marriage would be a non-issue, but we’d probably still have 19th century technology. > > As Druid-King, I would be benevolent, and schedule orgies in the grove thrice weekly. Hey, we gotta do something, since there ain’t gonna be any SEC football… Kim the Rhymer loves footbal. Consequently, any reality-screwing I do will have to make sure football still exists, as she cannot be made to be unhappy. I have taken the precaution of plucking certain persons from alternate timelines and… well, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/35 "2008-12-04T19:11:52Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > The temple destruction (meaning the first Jewish revolt) didn’t wipe out Christianity (it put the original Jerusalem-based group into a deep hole it never recovered from). It also didn’t wipe out Judaism so badly. Remember that there were more Jews (mostly converts) in Alexandria than in Jerusalem. What really put Judaism behind was the conversion of Jews into Christians. If anything, the various Jewish revolts ensured that some Jewish splinter\* group would dominate over mainstream Judaism. > > \*E.g., the Judean People’s Front. Don’t you mean the People’s Front of Judea? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/36 "2008-12-04T21:12:10Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Don’t you mean the People’s Front of Judea? Splitter! My guess; Roman Mithraism mixes with the cult of Sol Invictus and various other pagan influneces. End result pretty much the same, festival on the 25th of December and some sort of rebirth festival sometime in spring, only thing that changes are the details. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/37 "2008-12-04T21:15:57Z")
The more I think about it, the more I’d like to see the cult of Dionysus go intercontinental. I wonder which historical personages, and how many, I’ll have to [del]shoot in the back of the head[/del] distract with shiny baubles and holoharlots to make that happen? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/38 "2008-12-04T23:42:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Underline mine. Not the Catholic church. Promise. That lasted for several centuries but it was actually a political issue and has been recognized as such; it has never been dogma. > > As for the OP’s question, no idea. Since when does the RCC awknowlege the possibility of salvation _outside Christ_ as opposed to _outside the Church_? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542/39 "2008-12-06T21:21:33Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > I believe we would just say “Zeus” instead of “God” and “Apolo” instead of “Jesus”. People would defend the truth of Ovid’s “Metamorphoses” as being inspired by Zeus himself and whoever didn’t believe that would go to Hades. > > Greek mythology has been the second most popular religious narrative in the western world after Christianity for ages, and it’s all just replacing a bearded guy for another. Heh. Well, you may be right. If Zeus & Apollo are real, it seems clear that they took on the masks of God the Father & God the Son, suddenly Jewish (“No really!”) & survived in that way. Not sure about Artemis, she who was dissed in _Acts._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-have-taken-christianitys-place-if-it-had-died-aborning/475542.md?page=1)