# What would it take for not tipping to become socially acceptable in North America? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 15, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963 "2021-03-15T23:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/101 "2021-03-17T18:10:37Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Abolish the separate minimum wage for tipped workers, make it the same as the statutory rate Not that I’m opposed to this idea but it really doesn’t make that much of a difference. Business are already required to top up to minimum wage for people who don’t earn minimum wage with tips on any single shift. So your proposal at best would put an extra $5 an hour in the servers pocket but only if people people continued tipping the same and at worst people would tip less since the servers are making minimum wage their take home would decline. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/102 "2021-03-17T18:13:55Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I would question how many servers exist whose tips exceed the statutory minimum wage, but I don’t know. Based on the data from US News above we know that nationwide the 25th percentile of servers is making $9/hour so somewhere below that is minimum wage. Based on my knowledge any server who is routinely making less than minimum wage will be fired. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/103 "2021-03-17T18:13:57Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Servers have always had to accept whatever tips are given, so nothing would change. > > If your comment was rather “why would servers agree to an assured wage instead of a tipped wage”, I agree, servers wouldn’t go along with it if they are accustomed to tips that exceed the full minimum wage. Your first sentence assumes that the servers have no way to influence customer behavior. Your second sentence assumes that the servers do have a way to influence employer behavior - presumably by refusing to work or refusing to do good work if they do not get the level of tip income that they’re accustomed to. Think about that. A 10% tip is, currently, considered an inadequate tip everywhere, regardless of how much the servers are otherwise making in wages and other tips. Why would you expect that fact to change? Other than by banning tips altogether that is - you can’t fault a person for not burying you in money if they aren’t allowed to bury you in money. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/104 "2021-03-17T18:47:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > A 10% tip is, currently, considered an inadequate tip everywhere, regardless of how much the servers are otherwise making in wages and other tips. Why would you expect that fact to change? I’m not clear what your point is, but if things change to where servers get paid a market wage without me tipping, or if we go to an auto-gratuity system, then I’ll immediately stop tipping. It’s my money, I don’t care who considers it inadequate or who gives me dirty looks. Why would you keep tipping if you know it’s already included in someone’s wage? The only reason I tip now is I know we have a system where someone might miss a rent payment if I don’t. We should get rid of that system. If there’s still optional tipping, fine, but I will absolutely treat it as optional with no guilt whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/105 "2021-03-17T19:09:13Z")
I don’t tip due to a perceived obligation to help other people make rent. And if I was inclined to do that I would just hand the money to them without waiting to order food, because it isn’t about the service. And I also wouldn’t limit my boundless generosity to people who currently hold service positions. I tip only and solely because I don’t want to viewed as, and potentially abused as, an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/106 "2021-03-17T19:46:49Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > I could be wrong but I know some people in the restaurant industry and they basically say you don’t get paid minimum wage if you aren’t able to make up the difference in tips. Yes, they do. It’s Federal Law. As I said, some bosses may try to do otherwise but they are going to be stopped if people would report them. That is why it’s a problem with those here illegally are the ones that have this problem. They can’t complain. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > The dynamic apparently also results in this unwritten rule that if you can get out of bed you’re not calling in sick because the restaurant doesn’t want to have to actually pay people their full wage for their sick days. I’m not sure what this has to do with minimum wage, that is because lots of employers don’t pay sick pay. Welcome to America! 🙂 > [@kayaker](#): > > I’m picturing you and the other non-tippers hand-in-hand, tears steaming down your cheeks, sing “We Shall Overcome”. He would never do that! He’s not a sheeple, holding hands and doing something in unison is unthinkable to him. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Nobody plans for a career in waiting tables They may not plan for it, but many people do end up as servers for a career. For many single moms being a server can support her and her kid(s) much better than any retail work they may be able to get. It’s also easy to schedule aroun d kids needs. > [@RickJay](#): > > Replacing tipping with proper salaries would be much fairer to servers. Tipping is exceptionally unpredictable and even good servers can have a terrible night due to reliance on tips. Can I ask why you think this? Servers aren’t idiots. They know what shifts are slow and what are busy. It’s totally predictable. > [@RickJay](#): > > The fact one job is unfair doesn’t mean other jobs should be. Well, you or I may think it’s unfair but many people love it. Leave well enough alone, I think. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Restaurants could display a sign saying “this establishment pays its staff the full statutory minimum wage regardless of tips.” Add a government seal of authenticity, make it a felony to falsify that sign. Then everybody understands the game, both patrons and servers. So now we need to add another govt. regulation and have some other part of the govt. take on the task of “sign compliance”, just so you don’t have to tip. Everyone already understands the “game”, just because you are somehow offended by it doesn’t mean it needs to change. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I would question how many servers exist whose tips exceed the statutory minimum wage, but I don’t know. I do know many servers who hate shucking and jiving for tips, or living with the risk of not making a car payment because external factors kept the customers home for a week or two. So you know many servers well enough to know that they have to “shuck and jive” ( is it 1960s week?) for tips, but not well enough to know how much they make in tips or feel about tips? As for external factors, if Covid taught us anything it’s employees are the first to feel the axe so I don’t understand what good a minimum wage would do if they aren’t at work. Look up the stories about businesses that pocketed the relief money that was to go to keep employees paid. > [@begbert2](#): > > I tip only and solely because I don’t want to viewed as, and potentially abused as, an asshole. Who exactly would know if you don’t tip? Even if a server knew you didn’t tip, what exactly do you think they would do? Hurt your feelings? Please, people, stop bringing up raising the minimum wage to $7.50. They are already guaranteed $7.50, even if the base pay is $2.13. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/107 "2021-03-17T20:12:33Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Who exactly would know if you don’t tip? Even if a server knew you didn’t tip, what exactly do you think they would do? Hurt your feelings? Maybe I’m just a memorable guy, but I’ve had servers remember me weeks later. (Maybe it’s the beard.) And that’s while giving an inoffensive and unmemorable 17-20% tip. And you hear tales. I’m not interested in taking my chances. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/108 "2021-03-17T20:36:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And you hear tales. I’m not interested in taking my chances. I don’t want to push you. so ignore me if you want, but I was actually looking for a specific answer. Is it more the I heard they mess with your food type thing rather than a real life experience? I, too, have the memorable guy syndrome. I don’t know why, I’m 5’10", 170, brown hair brown eyes - nothing to stand out so I attribute it to my stunning good looks. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/109 "2021-03-17T20:39:16Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > I don’t want to push you. so ignore me if you want, but I was actually looking for a specific answer. Is it more the I heard they mess with your food type thing rather than a real life experience? He made several mentions upthread about spitting in food and the like. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/110 "2021-03-17T20:44:07Z")
With me it’s probably the beard. There are myriad possible ways a server could express their distaste with me, from “completely ignore me in favor of that guy who gives 70% tips” to “piss in my cheerios”, with a much higher chance of things like the former than the latter. Along with a side order of them just being unfriendly and doing their best to ruin the mood of the meal. (Which is, in fact, a real thing.) Plus there’s the minor fact that I’m not a complete sociopath and thus don’t particularly like being hated. But I’m mostly a sociopath, so my primary concern is about how they’ll treat me (or neglect to treat me). ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/111 "2021-03-17T20:53:13Z")
Thanks, **begbert2** , I get it, seems many people have that fear. Personally, I think it is more urban legend than fact. Most stories seem to friend of a friend, or I heard type of things. I have read of it happening but I don’t think over tipping. The last one I recall was someone spitting in police officers coffee. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/112 "2021-03-17T20:56:13Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Can I ask why you think this? Servers aren’t idiots. They know what shifts are slow and what are busy. It’s totally predictable. Because I was one, I was married to one, and my sister served, and I had two girlfriends who worked as servers. It’s not that predictable at all. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > Well, you or I may think it’s unfair but many people love it. Leave well enough alone, I think. It’s not well enough at all. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/113 "2021-03-17T21:08:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Because I was one, I was married to one, and my sister served, and I had two girlfriends who worked as servers. It’s not that predictable at all. My serving experience was bar tending and I could always guess pretty much what I would make on a given night. Like you, I also had a couple girlfriends that waitressed, they knew what shifts paid off more. I have 5 sisters, all of were servers thru college and they didn’t seem to have any trouble budgeting for their needs. One is still a bartender, daytime even, and she owns her own house out in the boonies on 20 acres. None of them would have been able to do what they did on minimum wage. > [@RickJay](#): > > It’s not well enough at all. Why not? Do you think salesmen are forced into their jobs because they couldn’t find anything better? Some people like the commission model and it allows them to work hours that suits them while paying what they need. Should real estate agents get minimum wage also? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/114 "2021-03-17T21:15:32Z")
Well, I’ve only skimmed the first half of the thread. But the OP mentioned that in France they no longer tip, which I can personally testify is true. It seems like, if one cared enough, a good way to address the OP would be to find out how and why it happened there. Personally, I think it’s a stupid system and should be replaced by the same system that applies to every other salaried employee. It’s not currently near my personal top ten list of things to be outraged about, but it’s stupid. Occasionally you do see restaurants that just pay their workers and don’t allow tipping, as one of my favorite local places does. I suppose if you were passionate about this cause you could choose to patronize only such restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/115 "2021-03-17T21:31:20Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Abolish the separate minimum wage for tipped workers, make it the same as the statutory rate for non-tipped workers. Restaurants could display a sign saying “this establishment pays its staff the full statutory minimum wage regardless of tips.” Add a government seal of authenticity, make it a felony to falsify that sign. Then everybody understands the game, both patrons and servers. > > Some people would probably still find it “socially unacceptable” not to tip. That can’t be legislated. But I’d feel comfortable telling those people to go pound sand if we all understand that servers take home _at least_ a straight minimum wage regardless of tipping. First sentence, great. But once you’ve done that, why do you need to make people put up a sign saying “We aren’t breaking the law!”? People who are going to break the law are rarely deterred by the prospect of having to lie about having broken the law. Personally, I feel that servers (and everyone) deserve to make more than the current minimum wage, so I would still tip. But I agree that customers who themselves make the minimum wage or something near it shouldn’t feel obligated to tip under those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/116 "2021-03-17T21:43:47Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Why not? Do you think salesmen are forced into their jobs because they couldn’t find anything better? Ah, the old “well, if it’s unfair, why don’t they get another job” argument. And real estate agents aren’t restaurant servers, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/117 "2021-03-17T22:00:39Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Yes, they do. It’s Federal Law. As I said, some bosses may try to do otherwise but they are going to be stopped if people would report them. That is why it’s a problem with those here illegally are the ones that have this problem. They can’t complain. The way it’s been communicated to me is that since cash tips are self-reported, the restaurant isn’t even bothering to add up what people actually make, and even if you add your cash tips on top of the paycheck you’re getting with salary+credit card tips and say you’re making under minimum wage they’re probably just going to assume you’re lying. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/118 "2021-03-17T22:15:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Ah, the old “well, if it’s unfair, why don’t they get another job” argument. > > And real estate agents aren’t restaurant servers, by the way. No it’s not a get another job argument. And I was replying to the car salesman post that you replied to, which is why I said salesman in my post and why I bought up real estate people because you said sales jobs were unfair like server jobs are. I’m sure you are well aware that sales people and real estate agents are careers to many people, not jobs. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > The way it’s been communicated to me is that since cash tips are self-reported, the restaurant isn’t even bothering to add up what people actually make, and even if you add your cash tips on top of the paycheck you’re getting with salary+credit card tips and say you’re making under minimum wage they’re probably just going to assume you’re lying. Sorry, I can’t understand your argument here. If a server works 8 hours and gets no tips, the employer still has to pay $7.50 x 8 hours. If the tips cover the difference between $2.13 and $7.50 the employer just pays the $2.13 x 8 hours. As I said above, It’s harder for employers to underpay workers now with computerized billing and receipts. Where it is still a problem is with undocumented workers. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/119 "2021-03-17T22:21:15Z")
If you work 5 hours, and minimum wage is $10/hr (to make the numbers nice and round), and you made $45 based on the amount that was billed through the system, and then 15 on top of that with cash tips, legally you are not entitled to extra money. If you made $45 billed through the system and 0 in cash tips, you are entitled to an extra $5. However there is no way for the restaurant to know which category you fall into and as a result (according to people I’ve talked to who work at restaurants) the restaurant is not going to track you down to give you the 5 bucks, and even if you report it you’re going to end up on the shit list because they have no idea if you’re being honest or not. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/120 "2021-03-17T22:34:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But if you recognize that $15 minimum wage is still pretty low then you should understand the difficulty of this problem. The servers now would love to get paid more but that will result in a lot of restaurants going out of business and those servers going from low wages to no wages. Why would that be? From what I understand from conversations with servers, they generally make over $15 with tips. People aren’t generally stupid and once they don’t feel obligated to tip , they will understand that a $10 burger plus a $2 tip is exactly the same price as a $12 burger. And the same goes for the $100 steak plus $20 tip vs $120 steak. I don’t see why the price would have to go up so much that “higher” prices would drive business away. Sure, the burger might go to $14 or the steak to $140, but if it’s industry-wide, I don’t think it would drive business away. And that’s the thing - it would have to be industry-wide. Because if it isn’t , then the place with the $100 plus $20 tip steak will incorrectly be perceived to be less expensive that the place with the $120 steak where tipping is not necessary. It’s the same as the hotel that lists the room price as $75 and then when you book it there’s a mandatory $25 resort fee. It looked cheaper on the website than the place that charges $100 with no resort fee - and that’s exactly why they do it that way. As for why I would like tipping to go away- it has nothing to do with how much money I spend. A lot of it has to do with what I’ve heard from servers in threads on this board - one thing I’ve often heard is that servers prefer tips because “they only have to” report tips as a certain percentage of sales, even if they earn more. I have two problems with that- first, they are supposed to report all tips and second, I don’t really understand why a tipped employees shouldn’t have to pay income taxes on their full income while the Target cashier has to. Another issue is that lots of it doesn’t make sense - I’m supposed to tip the person in the self-service buffet who does nothing but clear my plates, but I don’t need to tip the person in McDonald’s who cleans the table. People tip at Starbucks, but not at Dunkin Donuts. I have a large party at a catering venue with an open bar and have to pay $4000 (20%) in gratuities before the event even happens ( so it’s not to acknowledge great service) and then the bartenders put out tip receptacles. In that last example, you notice I specify the bartenders - because I’ve never seen anyone tip the wait staff at that sort of event. Why is that? I have no idea - but someone has already tipped 20% on the price of the open bar, so I’m not sure why bartenders get extra tips above that and waiters don’t. I’m supposed to tip the guy from the furniture store who delivers a small piece of furniture to my front door - but not the UPS guy who delivers a package the same size. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963.md?page=7)