# What would it take for not tipping to become socially acceptable in North America? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 15, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963 "2021-03-15T23:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/161 "2021-03-18T22:28:15Z")
Ok, I found [it](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/10.28#:~:text=%C2%A7%2010.28%20Tipped%20employees.&text=In%20order%20for%20the%20employer,credit%20claimed%20in%20actual%20tips.) in the Code of Federal Regulations. > (2) An additional amount on account of the tips received by such [employee](https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=c239cb8ef35cfc120200e2cf8c1cab57&term_occur=999&term_src=Title:29:Subtitle:A:Part:10:Subpart:C:10.28) (tip credit) which amount is equal to the difference between the hourly cash wage in [paragraph (a)(1)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/10.28#a_1) of this section and the wage in effect under section 2 of the Executive Order. Where tipped [employees](https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=c239cb8ef35cfc120200e2cf8c1cab57&term_occur=999&term_src=Title:29:Subtitle:A:Part:10:Subpart:C:10.28) **do not receive a sufficient amount of tips in the workweek to equal the amount of the tip credit, the employer must increase the cash wage paid for the workweek** under [paragraph (a)(1)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/10.28#a_1) of this section so that the amount of the cash wage paid and the tips received by the [employee](https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=c239cb8ef35cfc120200e2cf8c1cab57&term_occur=999&term_src=Title:29:Subtitle:A:Part:10:Subpart:C:10.28) equal the minimum wage under section 2 of the Executive Order. (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/162 "2021-03-18T22:34:46Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > What is the point of this post? We are not talking about dozens of countries, this is about North America. Hell, there are dozens of countries where servers are paid less per day than servers make in an hour here. Should we go to that method since dozens of countries do it? Countries are different and you know that. They do different things in different ways. Seriously, you know better. I’m pretty sure the point was that the argument that restaurants could not possibly survive if they pay their employees all by themselves is obvious bullshit. Clearly it is possible for restaurants to both pay their employees without anyone relying on tips without being forced to raise their prices enough to drive customers away or go out of business. And honestly, this is obvious for another reason - people want to eat out. Sure, at higher prices fewer people might want to eat out, and so the market would support fewer restaurants. But plenty of restaurants would still survive. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/163 "2021-03-18T22:47:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m pretty sure the point was that the argument that restaurants could not possibly survive if they pay their employees all by themselves is obvious bullshit Is someone arguing that? My argument, such as it is, is even if you immediately go to $15, servers are going to be taking a pay cut. The tipping is why some people would rather be servers than work retail. They can turn their talent of dealing with people into extra money, why take that away? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/164 "2021-03-18T23:13:17Z")
Because “people skills” includes wearing revealing clothes, flirting with customers and tolerating racist and sexually suggestive comments and the occasional copping of a feel in order to get paid in a job that’s supposed to be about serving food. I’ve seen a lot of this happen and both my sisters have worked as waiters and reported this happening repeatedly. My niece has waited tables during COVID and copped a bunch of flak from and got stiffed by customers who object to her wearing a mask. My nephew has been told by customers that they wanted to be served by “a real American”. And these are all in “respectable” restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/165 "2021-03-18T23:26:18Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > It is morally optional. Tipping is always optional. If you don’t want to tip, don’t. Nobody will put you on a blacklist or anything. Who, other than the server, would know that you don’t tip? Unless you are a regular the odds of a server remembering you from thousands of others is slim. I’m sorry, but what you’re writing here flies in the face of the established narrative. Tipping is not considered morally optional in society at large. In North America, people who refuse to tip are regularly seen as cheapskates and multiple sources suggest that if you choose not to tip, you are shortchanging the waiter because they rely on your tip to be paid; it seems likely that the waiter you choose not to tip will as a minimum resent you. I have seen it stated many times: “If you can’t afford to tip, you can’t afford to eat out.” Not tipping is something that is perfectly legal and at the same time socially unacceptable. What I’m trying to achieve is a state where 1) _all_ employees, including tipped ones, are _entitled_ to the same minimum wage and 2) conversely, tipping becomes optional on all levels, and will never be expected, but will always be considered a _privilege_, an not something that one assumes they will ever get; so if a customer chooses not to tip, no decent server would resent it. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > Okay, now I may be a little patronizing. That is one of the worst analogies I have ever read. What does hairstyle have to do with making a living? In case you didn’t know it, short hair wasn’t always in style either. That was just a couple of decades that you picked. People’s hair right now would would shock people in the fifties with how short it is, not to mention shaved heads. BTW, I was one of those people who made wearing long hair acceptable. I didn’t realize how serious of a right I was fighting for. I just liked long hair. Thanks to you, I know what a hero I really was! The analogy was not in the content of the social convention (I realize that social standards about hair length are not the same thing as payment practices); the analogy is in refusal to rebel against conventions. You seem to want me to blindly accept tipping culture (which I suggested should be reformed to make tipping socially optional, not necessarily completely abolish), just like men in the 1950s blindly went to the barber’s for short haircuts (and I fully realize that the taboo on long hair on men was mainly in the purview of a number of decades; it’s irrelevant if at some earlier time, long hair was in fashion for men; the point is that in the 1950s and the early 1960s, social conventions demanded that men wear their hair short; when the Beatles made longer hair fashionable in 1964, men who wanted to follow that fashion didn’t have it easy; I suggest you do some research into the discrimination that “longhairs” suffered right through the 60s and into the early 70s). > [@mordecaiB](#): > > This literally made me laugh! How old are you? Sheeple? Speaking out against wrongs? And of all the wrongs in the world, is tipping at the top of your list? Dude, you are trying to make yourself feel better for not tipping. This is not a crusade to save people. So because there are much bigger wrongs in the world, I don’t have the right to speak out against a small wrong? Puh-leeze. Of course this is not a crusade to save people. So that gives people the right to perpetrate “petty” annoyances? When did I say that abolishing tipping was at the top of my list? It’s not by a long shot. I actually concern myself with other far more important social issues, and have even published a book and articles on one of them (will not name it here so as not to cloud the topic further). The only people who I hear using this argument (that is, some variant of the “aren’t there more pressing issues in the world?” trope) are those who want to keept the status quo. It’s a way of shutting naysayers up. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > So, we shouldn’t tip because some time in the past people didn’t tip? What are you, a sheeple following all those old traditions. Today, we tip. You’re fiddling around with my words. Of course the fact that people in the past didn’t tip doesn’t automatically mean we shouldn’t tip today. All I’m saying is, restaurants once survived without tipping, so we don’t have to assume that it is something that we can’t do without, but can call our own practices into question. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > Okay, I can’t really find anything except you are embarrassed if you don’t tip? Is that it? If that’s it just don’t tip. Problem solved, and the rest of us sheeple can just continue onward baaaing in unison. There’s several points here. 1) Yes, I’m embarrassed if I don’t tip. My “just not tipping” is _not_ “problem solved” as, due to the social explectation to tip, I will still be embarrassed if I don’t tip. 2) I’m also concerned about the issues with servers being paid less than the full minimum wage when not tipped enough, so it’s not just a concern about me. I would like there to be an absolute guarantee that every tipped employee will receive the full minimum wage rate, even before tips, and if they do receive tips, that their employer will have zero control over them. 3) I have already said this: I’m not trying to ban tipping across the board (I did say that I would (personally) rather tipping were illegal than that there be a social expectation to tip, but I didn’t actually advocate making it illegal at any point. If you want to tip, then tip. But I would like to be able to go to a restaurant, leave no tip under any circumstances, and not be looked down upon by other people dining with me or resented by my server. That’s all I’m trying to achieve). > [@mordecaiB](#): > > They already are guaranteed minimum wage by federal law. If they made zero tips in a 8 hour shift the company has to pay them $7.50 x 8 hours. However, a good server is going to earn 3 times that in tips. You’re asking them to take a pay cut so you don’t have to tip. > > Yes, I’m sure someone somewhere screws their employees but it’s harder to do now with computer tracking of orders and such. The ones they do try to screw like that are those here illegally. There are multiple reports that contradict this, including on tipping-related threads on this forum. It is widely claimed that some employers claim they only owe $2.13 per hour to their server when they are not tipped, that they may fire a server who complains about this, or that they hold back a standard amount of income tax for the IRS based on an estimated tip amount, regardless of what the person actually earned in tips. All this is routinely presented as evidence that you shortchange your waiter if you choose not to tip them. Whether or not people continue tipping, I would demand that all employees always be entitled to the full minimum wage from the employer and that any tips they get be extra, and something that is between the employee and the IRS (or Revenue Canada where I’m from), with NO employer oversight or control whatever (so no mandatory tip sharing or having to give part of it to the cook or anything. If a tip is given, the receiver should have the right to just pocket it and it should be upon them to declare it to the IRS). > [@mordecaiB](#): > > Is someone arguing that? My argument, such as it is, is even if you immediately go to $15, servers are going to be taking a pay cut. The tipping is why some people would rather be servers than work retail. They can turn their talent of dealing with people into extra money, why take that away? Because currently, they depend on emotional blackmail to receive that extra money. Again, I am not against continuing tipping on some level, but then there should be 1) a legal guarantee that the waiter’s take-home pay before tips should be at least the standard after-tax minumum wage rate that non-tipped employees get to take home 2) Those who want to give tips can do so, but those of us who want to just pay the bill and go should not be considered cheapskates by society, resented by waiters, or guilted for supposedly shortchanging the waitstaff. That tip, if you get it, would become an out-and-out privilege, and not the moral right that North American society treats it as today. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > What is the point of this post? We are not talking about dozens of countries, this is about North America. Hell, there are dozens of countries where servers are paid less per day than servers make in an hour here. Should we go to that method since dozens of countries do it? Countries are different and you know that. They do different things in different ways. Seriously, you know better. The argument is not that, just because things are done differently in another country, we automatically should do things as in that country. Such examples simply serve to point out that the way we do things is not necessarily obligatory and that things may work if done a different way as well. Of course we shouldn’t change our practices just because someone else doesn’t share in them. Pointing out that someone else does things differently is simply a way of giving permission to question how we do things and considering whether our standards and practices cannot be reviewed. You seem absolutely set on maintaining the status quo. If you want to keep the current tipping system, I respect your right to an opinion, but some of us don’t share that opinion, and you seem to have a problem with me even suggesting that we should change something about the system. As you might have figured out from this thread, I am not the only one who finds fault with the current tipping culture. > [@elbows](#): > > The non tipping argument seems to constantly amount to, ‘I don’t care for it, everyone else should stop doing it so I don’t seem like/feel like/look like a cheap bastard when I don’t tip on principal! > > No one is making you tip. If you truly feel so strongly then don’t tip and leave the rest of us to do what we wish. That’s clearly the most obvious solution, for everyone. > > Ending tipping, and paying servers only minimum wage, would be a huge pay cut for them. Here’s a suggestion, don’t screw with someone else’s income to satisfy the fancy of a few. Who are absolutely, 100%, free to not tip, anytime they wish, but need all of us to stop so they feel okay with reducing the incomes of already low income workers. I have covered your criticisms above in my responses to mordecaiB higher above. Your points and arguments overlap with his. > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Because “people skills” includes wearing revealing clothes, flirting with customers and tolerating racist and sexually suggestive comments and the occasional copping of a feel in order to get paid in a job that’s supposed to be about serving food. > > I’ve seen a lot of this happen and both my sisters have worked as waiters and reported this happening repeatedly. My niece has waited tables during COVID and copped a bunch of flak from and got stiffed by customers who object to her wearing a mask. My nephew has been told by customers that they wanted to be served by “a real American”. > > And these are all in “respectable” restaurants. Exactly. As I indicated in one or two points above, there are multiple injustices inherent to the tipping system, not just the client-oriented one that I have been discussing as the main subject of this thread. Because part of the waiter’s salary is downloaded on the customer, it allows the customer to manipulate the server and make unreasonable demands, holding the tip as a kind of blackmail for doing what the customer wishes (e.g. allowing oneself to be groped). Obviously, most customers (I hope), don’t do this, but a sizeable portion do. Eliminating tipping as a major source of a waiter’s income, if not altogether, might solve this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/166 "2021-03-19T04:46:19Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Currently, here in Colorado, tipped minimum wage is over $13/ hour. No, it’s not. $9.30 as of January 1st. Hell, regular minimum wage is only $12.32. Maybe in other cities, but Colorado state tipped minimum wage is nowhere near $13. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/167 "2021-03-19T07:05:06Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Because “people skills” includes wearing revealing clothes, flirting with customers and tolerating racist and sexually suggestive comments and the occasional copping of a feel in order to get paid in a job that’s supposed to be about serving food Your idea of respectable restaurants is different than mine. Where do you go where servers are scantily clad other than Hooters or a strip club? Most female servers I’ve seen wear pants/blouse, maybe an occasional skirt. As for the verbal sexual harassment and racism, I hate to be the one to break this to you but women get that in all their jobs. We are supposedly working on it but it’s taking longer than we thought. As to flirting, servers are friendly, that’s part of what they do. the fact that you or someone else takes that as sexual is a problem that should be solved by teaching men friendly does not mean sex. Again, longer than we thought, although I wonder if we are really teaching this at all, as the problem doesn’t seem to be getting any better. > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > My niece has waited tables during COVID and copped a bunch of flak from and got stiffed by customers who object to her wearing a mask. My nephew has been told by customers that they wanted to be served by “a real American”. I don’t understand what any of this has to do with tipping. Assholes are asshole no matter what your job is. > [@themapleleaf](#): > > I’m sorry, but what you’re writing here flies in the face of the established narrative No it doesn’t. If you feel it is morally wrong to tip, don’t tip. The fact that you feel ashamed about it sounds like you really think it’s morally wrong not to tip. > [@themapleleaf](#): > > it’s irrelevant if at some earlier time, long hair was in fashion for men; the point is that in the 1950s and the early 1960s, social conventions demanded that men wear their hair short; when the Beatles made longer hair fashionable in 1964, men who wanted to follow that fashion didn’t have it easy; I suggest you do some research into the discrimination that “longhairs” suffered right through the 60s and into the early 70s). If it’s irrelevant earlier, why is it suddenly relevant only in the 50s? And, if you had paid attention to my post, I had long hair in the 60s and 70s. I know what it was like, perhaps you are the one that needs to do some research. But thanks again for telling me what a brave hero I was for not cutting my hair. It gives me the warm fuzzies. > [@themapleleaf](#): > > the world, I don’t have the right to speak out against a small wrong? Puh- > [@themapleleaf](#): > > I don’t have the right to speak out against a small wrong? Puh-leeze. Of course you do. Speak up all you want. The problem is when you speak up about stupid stuff, people, I mean sheeple, are allowed to laugh and make fun of your noble goals. It’s not my fault your excuse is some all over the place social/moral/hair length thing about having to leave a couple of bucks on the table when you eat out. > [@themapleleaf](#): > > I actually concern myself with other far more important social issues, and have even published a book and articles on one of them (will not name it here so as not to cloud the topic further). No please, go ahead and link to them, I’m sure I could work my way through all the clouds that would cause. > [@themapleleaf](#): > > It’s a way of shutting naysayers up. No, it’s a way of pointing out to you that your cause is small and petty. > [@themapleleaf](#): > > I have already said this: I’m not trying to ban tipping across the board > [@themapleleaf](#): > > Or would it be necessary to outright ban tipping by law? I don’t necessarily suggest we go that route if a less drastic solution would be found, though if I had to choose between a system where leaving a tip were illegal even if you wanted to leave one and the current system where you are threatened with social censure and emotionally blackmailed into leaving a tip, **I personally would prefer the option of making tips illegal.** > [@themapleleaf](#): > > There are multiple reports that contradict this, including on tipping-related threads on this forum. It is widely claimed that some employers claim they only owe $2.13 per hour to their server when they are not tipped, that they may fire a server who complains about this, or that they hold back a standard amount of income tax for the IRS based on an estimated tip amount, regardless of what the person actually earned in tips Do you have anything other than anecdotes? > [@themapleleaf](#): > > but those of us who want to just pay the bill and go should not be considered cheapskates by society, resented by waiters, or guilted for supposedly shortchanging the waitstaff. Why does it matter so much to you what other people, especially strangers, think of you. Again, if this bothers you so much, you know you are doing something _you_ consider morally wrong. > [@themapleleaf](#): > > Because part of the waiter’s salary is downloaded on the customer, it allows the customer to manipulate the server and make unreasonable demands, holding the tip as a kind of blackmail for doing what the customer wishes (e.g. allowing oneself to be groped). I hate break this to you also but diners are paying all of a servers salary, no matter what. The tip manipulation you point out as if it’s what every single customer does instead of a minority. Again, how would outlawing tips stop an asshole from groping a server? Is your opinion of servers so low that you think they allow themselves to be groped all day long just so they can get tips? I guess servers are just a bunch of sheeple, too, going along with getting groped by a “sizeable portion” of their customers like it’s no big deal as long as you get a tip. I don’t have that low of an opinion of anyone much less an entire profession. Maybe you should just eat at home. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/168 "2021-03-19T21:09:11Z")
Off topic, but I do want to apologize to @RickJay for a post upthread in which I think I went a bit over the top. Sorry about that, I usually do better. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/169 "2021-03-19T23:03:45Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > I don’t understand what any of this has to do with tipping. Assholes are asshole no matter what your job is. No. When a grocery store employee encounters an asshole customer they don’t lose an hours pay for not sucking up to their assholery. The rest of your post is just. I just can’t. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/170 "2021-03-19T23:10:56Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > No. When a grocery store employee encounters an asshole customer they don’t lose an hours pay for not sucking up to their assholery. > > The rest of your post is just. I just can’t. Neither does a server. How could they lose an hours pay? If you can’t reply to my post don’t quote me so I get a message. Use your words or leave my name out of it, please. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/171 "2021-03-19T23:14:14Z")
I did quote your post, what the hell are you taking about? If a waiter offends a diner they don’t get a tip. That is (by your own calculation) 80%+ of their pay. And “offends” in this case includes following local laws that the diner doesn’t like. This does not happen in the grocery store or any other business where the employer behaves like an employer and pays the employees. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > Neither does a server. How could they lose an hours pay? > > If you can’t reply to my post don’t quote me so I get a message. Use your words or leave my name out of it, please. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/172 "2021-03-19T23:28:38Z")
I never said you didn’t quote my post, try harder. I said if you are quoting my post so I get a message about it, that it’s worth my time to look at. All you posted was a wrong statement about pay and “The rest of your post is just. I just can’t.” Thanks for the insight. > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > If a waiter offends a diner they don’t get a tip. That is (by your own calculation) 80%+ of their pay. And “offends” in this case includes following local laws that the diner doesn’t like. One tip is not 80% percent of a servers pay. I’m beginning to wonder if you or **themapleleaf** have ever eaten in a restaurant, much less met a server. You seem to have little real world knowledge of how any of it works. Friend of a friend stories or anecdotes are not knowledge. They are always rare or they wouldn’t be brought up. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/173 "2021-03-20T02:34:02Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > > [@themapleleaf](#): > > > > I’m sorry, but what you’re writing here flies in the face of the established narrative > > No it doesn’t. If you feel it is morally wrong to tip, don’t tip. The fact that you feel ashamed about it sounds like you really think it’s morally wrong not to tip. I think I made what I actually think quite clear at the beginning. First of all, I _do_ tip under current circumstances; I’ve already explained that. So it’s not like I’m somehow trying to justify a current practice of mine that I subconsciously consider immoral. Secondly, I think it should be perfectly moral not to tip, BUT I do tip because of the moral argument that if I don’t servers could somehow be shortchanged through an application (whether legal or of illegal practice) of the practicalities connected with a lower tipped minimum wage. I’m posting here with the purpose of brainstorming a way of changing the system so that tipping will not have to be considered morally necessary. All you’re doing is mocking my efforts and accusing me of different motives than I actually have. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > If it’s irrelevant earlier, why is it suddenly relevant only in the 50s? And, if you had paid attention to my post, I had long hair in the 60s and 70s. I know what it was like, perhaps you are the one that needs to do some research. But thanks again for telling me what a brave hero I was for not cutting my hair. It gives me the warm fuzzies. Time periods when it _was_ socially acceptable for men to have long hair are absolutely irrelevant here, because this discussion is _not_ about hair trends. I referred to a moment in history when long hair on men _was_ socially unacceptable and when those who might have wanted to grow their hair would have been told to get with the program as an example of a negative social attitude that compares to your statement that I should just accept the current tipping culture because that’s the way it’s done in North America. All the analogy is meant to show is that, just because society is in the habit of doing something, doesn’t mean one should censure those who speak out against it or choose to challenge the custom. You’re reading _waaay_ too much into what I wrote there. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > Why does it matter so much to you what other people, especially strangers, think of you. Again, if this bothers you so much, you know you are doing something _you_ consider morally wrong. Umm, of course it matters. Most people would probably not feel good knowing that the people they meet secretly hate or resent them. If it doesn’t matter to you, well, more power to you. But don’t disparage other people for not wanting to be in a situation where they will be resented. Again, I’m not doing anything I consider morally wrong and this thread is not a veiled or subconsicous attempt to justify anything I’m currently doing. All I’m trying to do is to establish a way of making tipping completely optional and doing it in a way that will be moral for all parties concerned. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > I hate break this to you also but diners are paying all of a servers salary, no matter what. The tip manipulation you point out as if it’s what every single customer does instead of a minority. Again, how would outlawing tips stop an asshole from groping a server? Is your opinion of servers so low that you think they allow themselves to be groped all day long just so they can get tips? I guess servers are just a bunch of sheeple, too, going along with getting groped by a “sizeable portion” of their customers like it’s no big deal as long as you get a tip. I don’t have that low of an opinion of anyone much less an entire profession. Maybe you should just eat at home. I never said anything so categorical. All I meant was that one argument against the current system was that it is easy to abuse the fact that one can (supposedly) reward or punish a server through the variance of tipping amounts by expecting certain servile behaviors, and that ending the current system could work against that. In practice, North American servers _do_ tend to do various things to attempt to curry favor with customers for higher tips, even if (of course) it’s not a matter of the average waitress readily allowing herself to be groped. (I never made such a claim; again, you are reading into my words what you want to see in them, not what I actually meant). > [@mordecaiB](#): > > One tip is not 80% percent of a servers pay. I’m beginning to wonder if you or **themapleleaf** have ever eaten in a restaurant, much less met a server. You seem to have little real world knowledge of how any of it works. Friend of a friend stories or anecdotes are not knowledge. They are always rare or they wouldn’t be brought up. And where exactly do you get all _your_ supposed real-world knowledge about how restaurants work? Your comments about how supposedly all but a rare few unlucky American waiters here and there receive the full federal minimum wage when tips don’t make it up and how the exploitative practices for tipped employees don’t really exist pretty much all amount to bald statements for which you haven’t provided any real statistics or other proof to back it up. You’ve heard the one about the pot calling the kettle black, right? A lot of the “friend of a friend” stories we are thinking of are described on these forums and many others have been mentioned in various sources. The claims of exploitation are common. There are studies that have shown that people’s tipping habits are influenced more by discriminatory factors like how sexy the waitress is than by a standard system of etiquette that mandates how much someone is to be rewarded for good service. See [this](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/05/breasts_tips_waitresses.html) this brief article about breast size, for example. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/174 "2021-03-20T06:03:36Z")
Okay, this will be my last comment on this. That you are so overly invested in this subject that if tipping was banned by law, you would be happy. No matter if it means a pay cut to millions of servers, you, for some reason, feel this is a moral issue that is an unfair burden on you. You also seem to agree with the other poster that servers have so little respect for themselves that they are willing to be groped by, according to you guys, pretty much every male customer just so they can get a tip. I’ve said this all before so please read it this time because it’s the last. Tipping has absolutely nothing to do with morals. Zero. If you never tipped in your life I’m sure your choice of god will still let you into heaven. Tipping is a social custom. You do not have to tip if you don’t want to, I’m sure there are a million people in the US that never tip, they just don’t go on message boards crying about the terrible burden on them that must be overthrown to ease their moral conscience. The fact that you seem to think everyone on the street can look at you, somehow know you don’t tip, and then secretly despise you, speaks volumes about you. You don’t care about the people that you don’t want to tip, you only care about how you feel about yourself. Since you said upthread that you would be happy to pay a service fee because figuring out a tip was too socially difficult for you, why not just take my advice upthread? Carry a $5 with you when you go out to eat, tell your moral conscience that it is not a tip but a service charge(because it’s the same every time, no math for you) and your problem is solved! Best of luck to you on your righteous crusade. My anticipation is still growing for some links to all the books and articles you wrote that were of more importance than your tipping dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/175 "2021-03-20T18:26:57Z")
That’s okay, no problem. That said, I think you are under the odd misapprehension that people who think tipping should be done away with do not tip. That is, of course, completely wrong, and falls in line with the very common misunderstanding that people’s behaviour individually is the same as their behaviour collectively. I have seen no one in this thread suggest they don’t top now. I certainly tip; actually, I know no one who doesn’t. The point isn’t “I wish tipping wasn’t the custom because I don’t tip now and then everyone would be like me.” If you really think all the people in this thread suggesting tipping can be done away with don’t tip now I can certainly understand your hostility, but you’re wildly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/176 "2021-03-20T22:51:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That said, I think you are under the odd misapprehension that people who think tipping should be done away with do not tip. No, I understand that they do tip, but for some of them, including the OP, do it because of the repercussions of not doing so has an effect on them personally. He says somewhere in this thread that if not for the shame and ridicule of his friends, he would not tip. Not because it’s the way society has decided it to work, and it seems to work fine for the majority. The vast majority never even have a second thought about tipping. Again, I’m just repeating myself, so I will just let this thread go. Thanks for accepting my apology. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963/177 "2021-03-21T22:46:19Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > No, I understand that they do tip, but for some of them, including the OP, do it because of the repercussions of not doing so has an effect on them personally. He says somewhere in this thread that if not for the shame and ridicule of his friends, he would not tip. Not because it’s the way society has decided it to work, and it seems to work fine for the majority. The vast majority never even have a second thought about tipping. You are correct that one reason why I tip is because of the social stigma of not tipping - I don’t want my server to secretly resent me and people I eat with to be shocked. But I also wrote that another reason why I tip is that I am taking into account that in many places, people rely on tips because without them, them may not earn full minimum wage. Just for the record, I have followed your “advice” in one case - there are two restaurants in which I ate a number of times where I didn’t leave tips because they didn’t have a liquor license, meaning that according to Ontario law, the waiters were entitled to the full minimum wage rate, and I did so despite imagining that the waiters might be resentful, out of principle. I also didn’t eat there very much. You are also correct that I am not factoring “the way society has decided to work and it seems to work fine for the majority” into my anti-tipping stance. Why should I care how society decided things should work? Just because we do something some way doesn’t mean that it is fair or right; a lot of things we do or don’t do today are different from what the social contract expected in the past. Also, the rights, opinions and wishes of the minority should be taken into account as well, otherwise you just have mob rule. I couldn’t care less if most people are OK with the current system; I have every right to question it. I never wrote: “Let’s just all stop tipping and damn the consequences”. My question was “what will have to change for not tipping to become socially acceptable?” Again, if people want to continue to reward (or subsidize) waiters with tips, I am not against that. As long as 1) lower tipped minimum wages are abolished (as well as things like manadatory tip sharing or taxes being withheld based on what the employer thinks you earned in tips - basically, I want laws that will force employers of tipped employees to give them the same pre-tip take-home pay as non-tipped employees) AND 2) society is re-conditioned to see tips as a privilege for the server and as entirely optional for the customer, who would no longer be seen as cheating the waiter if he or she just pays the amount stated on the bill. No more, no less. Your comment that “The vast majority never even have a second thought about tipping” is a sweeping statement which I strongly suspect is just a speculation on your part. You make quite a few claims in your posts that you don’t support with hard evidence, while accusing others of only going off “friend of a friend” stories. The fact that no one sought to criticize tipping to your face doesn’t mean everyone is cool with the practice and that few people never give it a second thought. As you can see from this and other tipping-related discussions on this site (and elsewhere), people do have different opinions about the practice; some like it, others don’t, though people have various degrees of approval or disapproval. And if you care to look it up, there is a large body of articles and studies finding flaws with tipping, at least with the way it’s done in North America. It’s not just a random complaint that I happen to have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-for-not-tipping-to-become-socially-acceptable-in-north-america/937963.md?page=8)