# What would it take to cause the collapse of the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751 "2012-05-22T20:06:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/41 "2012-05-26T14:54:50Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Government communications would continue to function just fine after a single high altitude nuke by using military channels which are hardened against EMP; see [Electromagnetic shielding](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding) and [Faraday cage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage). Faraday cages only isolate against electrostatic charges, such as discharge from a capacitor. High altitude EMP (HEMP) devices produce three distinct regimes of pulse, referred to as E1, E2, and E3. Microelectronics are most sensitive to E1, which is due to interaction of x-ray and gamma ray radiation with the rarified upper atmosphere and the geomagnetic field resulting an a nearly coherent, widely distributed pulse, sort of like a very large free electron maser. The E1 electromagnetic pulses that electronics are sensitive to consist of rapidly varying electromagnetic waves that are not stopped by a conductive cage. Military electronic hardware, save for acceptable commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) components, area built to specific interface standards like MIL-STD-464 (Electromagnetic Effects Requirements for Systems), MIL-STD-461 (Requirements for the Control of Electromagnetic Interference Characteristics of Subsystems and Equipment), and MIL-STD-2169 (Classified) (High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse Environment). However, the ugly truth about high altitude EMP is that no amount of shielding, save being buried deep under hundreds of feet of rock or dirt, is really adequate to protect sensitive microelectronics. By their nature, the electronics are delicate and sensitive to small levels of excess voltage, and it is nearly impossible to make a practicable sensor, communication system, or avionics control that has to interface with the outside world and yet is adequately isolated against large pulses. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/42 "2012-05-26T15:28:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > We would survive the initial shock just fine. During the Northeast blackout of 2003 I was in NYC. It’s not like as soon as the lights go off, people picked up trash cans and toss them through store windows. Mostly people just walked home and hung out in their neighborhood bar as they sold off all their perishables. It lasted like that for several days. I was there, too. But there were still things like radios. And gravity-fed water from the reservoirs. Lots of other locations rely on electric pumps. Imagine when all of the control circuitry for all of that stuff is fried. Also, I don’t recall too many reports of deaths due to the blackout. This would be different-- all the planes taking off and landing at JFK, LGA, etc. would power down and crash. Probably 95% of the cars, trucks, and buses would be shut down ( and without power steering/brakes and brake lights, I think there would be tremendous casualties from car crashes at the instant of the blast). No ambulances. No backup generators kicking in at hospitals–they would be fried, too. > [@](#): > > The problem is when it becomes a sustained condition. After several weeks of people not being able to get to work or even do their work since 90% of us work with computers or other electricity powered equipment. Food and medicine not being able to get to where it needs to go. Lack of communications. So on and so forth. > > The thing is, while an EMP pulse, while disasterous, would not create a permenant state of living in the dark ages. Not all electronics would be affected the same. Many could be repaired. I imagine rudimentary services could be restored in a couple of weeks. > > A lot of it depends on the circumstances surrounding such a disaster and the consequences after. But I don’t think a few months of living in darkness would disolve the US. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/43 "2012-05-26T15:57:03Z")
Electronics unplugged, or still in boxes–would they be effected? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/44 "2012-05-26T16:10:19Z")
It would have to be several things, such as: Nuclear attack, which weakens America considerably (perhaps several nukes at once) A majority of survivors are unhappy with the government - perhaps they feel it is the government’s fault, perhaps the government has already enshrined too much on civil liberties on the domestic front, whatever America breaks up into smaller city-states Or there’s a virus that wipes out half the population. Or the government does something terrible and there’s an uprising. Or there’s a huge ‘race war’. It’s not impossible - just highly unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/45 "2012-05-26T16:44:50Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Electronics unplugged, or still in boxes–would they be effected? EMP (E1) works by essentially oversaturating electronic components. Unplugging or isolationg systems from the power grid will protect against spikes caused by the E2 component, but the only thing that can protect against E1 is mass that will attentuate the electromagnetic pulse, or making the components sufficiently robust that they don’t undergo breakdown, which is contrary to the high efficiency, low energy components used in modern commercial systems. See [Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack"](http://EMPCommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf) for a summary of EMP effects and mitigation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![figure9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@figure9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/figure9)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/46 "2012-05-26T19:15:21Z")
A series of drought years that covered most of the farm belt could do it. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/47 "2012-05-26T20:02:15Z")
> [@figure9](#): > > A series of drought years that covered most of the farm belt could do it. That would also hurt the rest of the world more than us, probably. Drought does seem to be responsible for a good portion of pre-modern collapses. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/48 "2012-05-27T21:15:51Z")
At the rsik of whatever might happen by disagreeing with the posters here… [Lex Luthor]WROOOOOOOOOOOONG![/Lex Luthor] You’re all looking at the physical, what will happen to destroy the land on which Americans live, or somehow kills America by ending Facebook. That cannot destroy America. What can destroy America is if Americans simply stop believing in it. America is an idea, and ideas can’t be stabbed or shot or bombed. A people can survive the utter destruction of their government, technology, and society as long as the idea remains. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/49 "2012-05-27T22:13:49Z")
**smiling bandit** : you would seem to be excluding the middle step: a severe social, economic, or military event that leads to the collapse of our way of life – including the loss of faith in the idea and ideals of America. But you are right in adding the idea of simple and perhaps gradual change, a kind of social evolution, that could lead away from what we now hold to be American ideals. For instance, a new religion might spring up and become hugely popular, leading to catastrophic divisiveness. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/50 "2012-06-04T00:48:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Nations don’t “collapse”. They go through upheavals, and maybe undergo periods of chaos and uncertainty, but collapse? When was the last time that happened? The USA is not a nation, it’s a political structure. It could be destroyed, or disintegrate. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/51 "2012-06-04T01:07:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > **smiling bandit** : you would seem to be excluding the middle step: a severe social, economic, or military event that leads to the collapse of our way of life – including the loss of faith in the idea and ideals of America. Apologies for missing this. I don’t think any social, economic, or military event could do so, short of nearly-obliterating all Americans. A catastrophe would never destroy America without being so bad as to wipe out a good chunk of the globe. It would take something far slower and deeper. In that sense, I agree with **foolsguinea** , but only on that aspect.m America isn’t a nation, but while it doesn’t have the same kind of identity that Germany does, it is an identity. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/52 "2012-06-04T01:09:10Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The USA is not a nation, it’s a political structure. It could be destroyed, or disintegrate. Besides the Native nations located within the USA, it is. Heck, when asked, most people of [The South](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg) don’t self-identify as anything other than American or African-American. What nation could they possibly belong to, other than the USA? As for the rest of the map, all those blue counties, they belong to the German-American nation? I think not. In times of crisis, we have no more or no less coherence than other nations. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/53 "2012-06-04T01:29:04Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] The USA is not a nation, it’s a political structure. [/QUOTE] Only insofar as EVERY conglomerate of people is ‘not a nation’ but only a ‘political structure’. But, unless you are saying that there are no nations and only political structures, the US is indeed a nation AND a political structure. > [@](#): > > It could be destroyed, or disintegrate. Certainly…any nation can be destroyed and disintegrate. It would, IMHO, take something fairly epic to cause the US to collapse right now, but with enough shocks to our system? Yeah, I can see a lot of ways it could happen. And once the central idea holding the nation together as a whole goes, then disintegration is pretty much inevitable. -XT ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/54 "2012-06-04T03:09:33Z")
Well, even a proper nation could be exterminated, exiled and enslaved, or diverge into new different nations. Pointing out that the USA is not a nation is beside the point. But really, the USA just isn’t a nation. It’s ridiculous to call it one. Its dominant culture is racially, linguistically, culturally, ethnically part of the Anglophone continuum, part of the same supernation, bound by language and heritage, as Anglophone Canada, Jamaica, great chunks of the Lesser Antilles, and Great Britain. The USA is properly a _state._ ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751/55 "2012-06-04T03:56:08Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The historical state of Palestine was dissolved in 1948 with the Partition, and no real successor state that was generally recognized emerged for four decades, although there is some degree of social continuity in the Palestinian people and leadership. When you say the historical state of Palestine in 1948, do you mean the 31 year old British Mandate? The Ottoman Empire, of which Palestine was a province, had already ceased to exist between 1918 and 1922. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-cause-the-collapse-of-the-us/622751.md?page=2)