What would it take to change a theist's mind?

I’m no expert, but does atheism in fact rule out existence after death, if (a theory of such) doesn’t involve God?

Certainly the Abrahamic traditions (Judeasim, Christianity, and Islam) posit life after death as central to their teachings, but that in itself doesn’t mean that all life after death concepts must perforce be religious/theist.

I could imagine an atheist believing in no God, but still thinking his pattern of consciuousness would have echoes in the collective mind as a function of electrical patterns or whatnot (just to make up a doctrine for pusposes of example).

Similarly, I’m not sure all faiths in “gods” include an after-existence. I’m on shaky ground here, but (to me) the Zen Buddhists’ hope to achieve Nirvana seems substantively different from existence as my current self after death. I can imagine hypothetical beliefs in god(s) who would rule the temporal universe but not promise any life after death.

So I think non-existence after death isn’t a very clear proof of atheism. It’s evidence of no afterlife, but it doesn’t rule out some possible conceptions of god(s).

Not that I’ll be able to report back with a cite, either way, in the event. :wink:

Sailboat

Well, here’s what killed my faith dead:

My dad died.

This was a pointless, nonsensical waste that accomplished nothing good and extinguished one of the lights in my life. Even my pastor had the common decency to admit that it simply wasn’t fair and not try to sell some bullshit about “mysterious ways” or “he’s being called Home”.

Basically, I had two options
A: Be mad that an omnipotent tyrant that not only let my dad die, but actively murdered him and countless millions more when he invented cancer.
B: Be disappointed that there was no God, no intelligent force, that could have saved my father.

I’d rather be disappointed than enraged, so there you have it.

Also, a study of biology that showed me that not only is God unnecessary for life as we know it, if He is responsible for life, He put all of us together in a shockingly inelegant and sloppy manner.

Yes this is so, that’s why I stated it would be a start. I don’t think there is anything of this world that can convince me that a spiritual world does not exist. And anything of the spiritual world would only reaffirm to me that a God exists. So sort of a catch 22.

And to be fair, I was a theist and changed my mind. So therefore, I have answered the OPs request not as a hypothetical “what would it take” but with the actual “what it did take.”

I was a very pious child, I went to church because I wanted to. I would not sing songs that were about being baptized until I had been baptized. I made the choice to be baptized. I went to christian schools and summer camps and Vacation Bible Schools by choice. I begged Jesus to forgive me of my sins over and over, terrified that he didn’t think I meant it. I prayed and I prayed.

Bit of a hijack, but this very thought occurs to me every time i watch one of those silly demonic posession/deal with the Devil movies. Inevitably the Evil One or his minion makes some frustrated remark about God’s overwhelming power, and the protagonist, who usually firmly believed in God with no evidence, suddnely falters in faith when confronted by a living demon that’s expressly stated there is a God and said demon clearly feels inferior. It’s, uh, just stupid.

Sailboat

Despite the numerous tragedies and misfortunes in my life (I posted about a lot of them under my old name erie774) I still believe there was an original intelligence behind the creation of the universe. I don’t believe in a deity who is actively involved. I think that something got the ball rolling and just let it be. I can ask why things go wrong but I won’t get an answer, as much as I would like one.

If someone came to me with definitive proof of what caused the Big Bang and showed that there was no being behind it, I would have to ask, “Yeah, but where did that singularity come from? And how did it get here?” The more intricate and amazingly formulated I find our universe to be, the more it gives me the impression of being (please forgive me) designed. :d&r: Man, I hate those yahoos pushing ID.

I don’t hold with the people who see angels in every Good Samaritan or who think that saying the rosary twice a day or praying to Mecca five times a day will get God to pay attention to you and heal Aunt Gertrude’s bunions.

But I also don’t see how something as finely balanced as our universe can happen by chance. How can the constants that govern the nuclear forces or gravity be so accurate that without them life couldn’t exist? (Yeah, I know, there could be universes where the laws of physics are different and life cannot exist, but we don’t live in that universe, even if it does exist, so I prefer to deal with what is happening in my neighborhood).

I honestly cannot think of a way to prove to me that G(g)od does not exist. But don’t stop trying, folks!

Yeah, but where did that God come from? And how did He get here?

But as I understand from a post of yours a couple of days ago, your position now is that unless someone can explain to the seven-year-old child you were why she had to suffer abuse, faith in God is meaningless? (Just to clarify. I am as unpleasant and snarky as all get-out, but this isn’t a subject I’d snark on.)

The answer would be something along the lines that the nature of God is such that He cannot be meaningfully said to have an origin or a cause; whereas science is adamant that not only does the Universe have an origin, but we can date the event fairly accurately (to an order of magnitude of years, anyway). An answer to your question would only provoke a follow-up “So where did Daddy God come from, then? Grandad God? Great-grandad God?” and it would be turtles all the way down.

Was it the chicken or the egg? I don’t know and don’t presume to know. I’m not smart nor wise enough to have the answers. If I did, I’d be making major bucks solving global warming, ending poverty, cleaning up the environment, stopping war and finding out how to get more women to willingly give BJs. Instead I work in middle management and am drowning in debt. And the last time I got a BJ was around the time that Monica Lewinsky gave hers.

All I can do is keep asking questions. If someday I do discover there is a god and I can ask him where he came from, I hope he’ll have an answer. If not, I’ll keep asking. I refuse to take no for an answer.

It’s nice having been on both sides of the fence, and on the fence itself. I can see both sides. The other thread was what it would take for me to switch back to theism, this is what it takes to leave theism.

I tend to find these sort of discussions tedious because I believe that one’s religion should be private AND that if I was to believe in God, that the mere concept of trying to explain that belief would leave me in constant, utter awe. In my family, it was not even discussed who you voted for. Voting booths are private for a reason. So are prayers. Mostly I’m baffled by theists who think they have it right. Out of all the religions in the world, my luck would NOT have me find the One True Path. I find that level of certainty disarming.

God would have to come down and prove to me that he doesn’t exist. ;p

To be fair, FriarTed’s response was real, and well explained.

However, the next time we have a shouting match about how wrong it is for atheists to call belief irrational, I hope someone will link to this thread. FriarTed’s reason for not giving up belief is, I think, irrational, though that does not say he is irrational or even wrong. What is rational in believing the universe is one way because you are deeply uncomfortable with it being another way? This doesn’t work only for theists - saying you believe there is no god because your dog got run over or something is just as irrational.

For me, I stopped believing when I started to explore the historical record, and actually reading the Bible all the way through while looking at it logically pretty much completed the job - so my answer is much like that of Auntbeast’s.

I’ve come very close to considering myself an atheist.

It’s hard to pin down definitively, the best I can do is descriptively.

There’s a way of conceptualizing reality that you can get to via many different paths including Skinnerian behaviorism, philosophical existentialism, that stuff that infected academia in the 90s called poststructuralism, or via any of a number of forms of causal empiricism and/or radical materialism. What they all have in common is that any intentionality and any meaning that anything might ever have — not just the conscious intentions of Some Specific Entity or the Ultimate Meaning of the Universe — all wash out as artifacts of some other meaningless and arbitrary process.

That would include you, for example. The poststructuralist would say “you” are a construct of your location in culture and history, with all meaning for you and to you and of you, including every aspect of your so-called “consciousness”, are artifacts of the collision of large impersonal discourses between historically poised abstractions. Using different language, the Skinnerian would agree: you don’t possess a will and act of intention, you’re a matrix of responses reacting to stimuli, and you neither “choose” nor “cause” anything, you merely passively react. Mainstream sociology, with its insistence on the totality by which all of the contents of your mind is socially determined, would nod in agreement. The folks who perceive the entire universe as a large collection of energetic subatomic particles with mass and momentum interacting according to the mechanical laws of physics, with everything else only an illusion, would not contradict them except to question notions such as “history”, “culture”, “society”, etc; they’d agree completely on the total lack of conscious actors to be found anywhere in any setting.

And having dispensed with a conscious focal point from which questions of meaning can be considered, they also dispose of meaning. It’s not merely that if you had been born to the parents of Adolf Hitler and raised in the environment in which he was raised you would have done no different from what he did in his life — that’s true enough, but more to the point, the only reason that you, reading this, harbor any belief or attitude towards the life and deeds of Adolf Hitler that would be critical of them are attributable to your social cultural and historical location, and by definition there’s no neutral point from which to find in your favor and against the opinions of some neo-nazi who is inclined to revere the sonofabitch.

OK, for shits & giggles we can toss in a biological determinist, who would disagree with the thesis of the prior paragraph… but who would say it’s your genes, your chromosomes, and if you’d had Adolf’s you would have been him. Different determinism, same lack of a you except as the passive expression of something that does not itself possess thought or will.

These folks collectively would more often than not identify themselves as atheist. They could not, in any kind of consistent good conscience, say that they came to that conclusion as conscious thinking people, as a mental act of commitment to rationality, or anything of the sort, though: nope, they are atheists for the same reason they are everything else that they happen to be, which all has to do with exterior mindless forces eliciting behaviors, imprinting its messages as their “thoughts”, and so forth.

So… to answer your question, what would it take to change my mind such that I would embrace an atheistic explanation of reality self and universe? Mostly only this: create a discourse within which we can all assume intentionality, consciousness, meaning, and purpose really do exist, even if we aren’t disposed to agree on a great portion of what they are and/or should be.

Mostly you have that in the casual-discussion zone, so we can chat about politics or express our shared disgust at how people have treated people in this or that context or debate whether this or that would be a better societal rule or norm. But because discussion does go into the abstract land of ultimate meaning and knowledge often enough, it is necessary that you really do assert that these things are essentially real, and by essential I mean not reducible or explained away as artifacts of mindless, arbitrary, meaningless mechanical processes. And whether you can pinpoint exactly how it works or not, you also have to declare for our capacity to sense it (know it, be aware of it) aside from processes that themselves can be explained away in such fashion.

Doesn’t need to be a Jehovah-Almighty, gave-you-a-Bible kind of thing at all, though.

I once read something along these lines:

If you see a puddle of water, you don’t marvel that the puddle fits exactly into the depression that holds it.

In other words, things exist the way they do because that is their nature. If their nature were different, perhaps other things would exist, and someone would marvel at the precise balance that resulted in those things.

I don’t express myself well, but do you follow?

FWIW - in the case of a man of God coming against a demon it is not the belief that there is a God that the demon will typically attack, but the faith that one is actually fighting in God’s power and strength. Ideally the demon would love you to to fall back to operating in your own strength as the flesh is not able to stand against the strength of a demonic attack.

If the victim of the attack is not solid in their faith the demon could challenge their faith of if there is a God at all IMHO.

I am again impressed with the extent to which, when asked this type of question, Friar Ted and I make similar arguments. (Except he’s not as longwinded and pretentious as I am ;)). It’s odd & interesting because we aren’t exactly on the same channel in terms of our religious beliefs at all.

I see what you mean. Within our universe, though, the nature of matter is configured in a particular manner that life is possible. I don’t care about what happens in the rest of the multiverse (if it exists) because 1) life cannot exist there and 2) I don’t live there. Hell I won’t even visit there if they offered me a free buffet and frequent flier miles.

However, I do marvel at the fact that water has surface tension. Or the fact that when it becomes a solid it is less dense than its liquid form, which is the opposite of almost all other substances. This is what insulates a lake floor from freezing and, more importantly, makes the ice cubes float on the top of my Seven and Seven. I understand the particular physical characteristics involved but am amazed that if water behaved the way other substances did then we could not exist.

I think you expressed it very well.

Here is one for you. A quote from my first anthropology professor: “If I was God, I’d have thought of evolution.”

Can you please explain why you thought I was mocking?

You objected earlier that the standard of proof atheists required to believe in God was absurdly high.

But when we’re talking about the concept of God, how can a standard of proof be “absurdly high”?

The example I gave of the stars rearranging themselves completely violates the known laws of physics. THAT’S THE POINT! What would be the point of having a standard of proof easily fooled by a conjuring trick or hallucination?

Seconded. If you want to prove to me that I’m dealing with an entity of vast, unbelievable power, you don’t prove it by pointing at little fiddly bits and minor inconclusive events. If you claim your god can move mountains with a thought, what’s unreasonable about me waiting for a demonstration of that caliber before believing it?