# What would it take to make pro-lifers become OK with abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520 "2021-09-28T15:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/1 "2021-09-28T15:20:48Z")
Preemptive plea in advance: Let’s not have this turn into yet another generic abortion thread A variety of arguments have been used against pro-lifers over the decades: “If you don’t like abortion, then don’t get one” (this doesn’t work because pro-lifers hear it as, “If you don’t like baby murder, then let others kill but don’t kill your own”), “Life does not begin at conception” (this doesn’t work because they believe it does,) “If you ban abortion, then it will continue anyway, but be more dangerous” (this doesn’t work because they’re okay with that,) etc. So…what argument would it take for pro-lifers to indeed become okay with abortion? Bill Clinton famously said that abortion should be “safe, legal and rare” but how rare would it have to be for pro-lifers to accept it? And are pro-choicers still ascribing to the “rare” part? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/2 "2021-09-28T15:25:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So…what argument would it take for pro-lifers to indeed become okay with abortion? - Their high school age princess is pregnant and needs one unlike those other sinful sluts. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/3 "2021-09-28T15:25:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A variety of arguments have been used against pro-lifers over the decades: “If you don’t like abortion, then don’t get one” (this doesn’t work because pro-lifers hear it as, “If you don’t like baby murder, then let others kill but don’t kill your own”), “Life does not begin at conception” (this doesn’t work because they believe it does,) “If you ban abortion, then it will continue anyway, but be more dangerous” (this doesn’t work because they’re okay with that,) etc. > > So…what argument would it take for pro-lifers to indeed become okay with abortion? IIRC, there was a study a while back that raised a number of eyebrows by noting that the number of babies born with Down syndrome had dropped by a striking amount among pro-choicers given testing in the womb; and that, among pro-lifers, roughly the same drop was seen. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/4 "2021-09-28T15:30:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Their high school age princess is pregnant and needs one unlike those other sinful sluts. Especially if the putative father was some low-life waster. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/5 "2021-09-28T15:30:38Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Their high school age princess is pregnant and needs one unlike those other sinful sluts. [The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/15/1857976/--The-Only-Moral-Abortion-is-My-Abortion-an-article-by-Joyce-Arthur) That’s been going around for over twenty years but remains eye-opening. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/6 "2021-09-28T15:39:16Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Their high school age princess is pregnant and needs one unlike those other sinful sluts. For clarification, I don’t mean pro-lifers becoming “ok” with abortion in their own private personal sense - after all, hypocritical abortions have been around forever - but rather, OK in the **national political sense** - okay with legalizing it nationwide, having it accessible to all women - in other words, stop seeing it as a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/7 "2021-09-28T15:44:08Z")
I’m confused. If there were any such answer, wouldn’t it already have been discovered and furiously promulgated? The pressure and urgency to do so couldn’t be greater. How is this different from turning lead into gold? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/8 "2021-09-28T15:49:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > For clarification, I don’t mean pro-lifers becoming “ok” with abortion in their own private personal sense - after all, hypocritical abortions have been around forever - but rather, OK in the **national political sense** - okay with legalizing it nationwide, having it accessible to all women - in other words, stop seeing it as a bad thing. - If they could trade abortion for more political power/influence in all other areas, they’d do it in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/9 "2021-09-28T15:52:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So…what argument would it take for pro-lifers to indeed become okay with abortion? It depends on the pro-lifer, and why they are “pro-life.” ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/10 "2021-09-28T15:55:24Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > If they could trade abortion for more political power/influence in all other areas, they’d do it in a heartbeat. I tend to believe the opposite – that a lot of the power-at-all-costs behavior we’ve seen the last 30 years is fueled by opposition to abortion. If “they” (some percentage of right-wingers) could get all abortions banned, they’d gladly punt on the other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/11 "2021-09-28T15:58:01Z")
As there is a group of anti-abortionist who honestly believe abortion is murder, I don’t think you are going to change their minds. If the conservative religious structure that teaches them this changed, then anti-abortionists would slowly disappear. No campaign based on science or reason has a chance IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/12 "2021-09-28T15:58:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > For clarification, I don’t mean pro-lifers becoming “ok” with abortion in their own private personal sense - after all, hypocritical abortions have been around forever - but rather, OK in the **national political sense** - okay with legalizing it nationwide, having it accessible to all women - in other words, stop seeing it as a bad thing. The only thing I can think of would be if a literal voice in the sky said “I am Jesus, your Lord and Savior. Abortion is not against my commandments.” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/13 "2021-09-28T16:00:46Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > The only thing I can think of would be if a literal voice in the sky said “I am Jesus, your Lord and Savior. Abortion is not against my commandments.” - Since so many routinely ignore the Scriptures they claim to believe in so devoutly, I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/14 "2021-09-28T16:03:08Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > If “they” (some percentage of right-wingers) could get all abortions banned, they’d gladly punt on the other stuff. But that would just change the narrative. Instead of “we need to ban abortion,” it would become “we need to _keep_ abortion banned.” The fight itself would never go away. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/15 "2021-09-28T16:05:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But that would just change the narrative. Instead of “we need to ban abortion,” it would become “we need to _keep_ abortion banned.” That’s probably true, but my point was that it’s their top priority either way, not something they’d give up for more power or some other priority. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/16 "2021-09-28T16:07:23Z")
_What would it take to make pro-lifers become OK with abortion?_ Convince them that the vast majority of abortion candidates are a different race/religion/political affiliation than they are, and if not aborted, will grow up to take their jobs, spend their taxes, marry their offspring and diss Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/17 "2021-09-28T16:21:20Z")
I don’t actually believe most anti-abortion folks genuinely believe that abortion is murder, first because I so often see them embracing exceptions that they would not similarly embrace for murdering a newborn, and second because so many also oppose birth control. I believe most of them, whether they admit it or not, want to control sexual activity by controlling women. I believe they might come around on abortion if the women who got them could be punished and publicly humiliated in some other, worse way. Scarlet letters and scaffolds? ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/18 "2021-09-28T16:38:10Z")
Maybe if the Pope came out and stated the mother’s life is above all concerned, and the mother’s choice is what matters most. And while he’s at it, stated that birth control in general is God’s way of improving the lot of his children in this world, such that they may serve the Church better. Of course, the Pope DID say the COVID-19 vaccine was permitted because it is best for the community and humanity, but there are still hold-outs among the faithful, so I am not sure how good his word would be in convincing pro-lifers to change their mind. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/19 "2021-09-28T16:38:41Z")
I’d say that if the progressives managed to pass a comprehensive social safety net, providing guaranteed housing, education, medical care and a UBI, then they would have to balance their desire for preventing their tax dollars going to those who they believe are undeserving against their desire to control the sex lives of women. I don’t know if it would tip the scales, but it would change the balance for some, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520/20 "2021-09-28T16:39:57Z")
I don’t think the Pope would be enough, a lot of the Anti-Abortion movement is Protestant based. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-pro-lifers-become-ok-with-abortion/951520.md?page=2)