# What would it take to make this dashcam traffic ticket scheme legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 25, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898 "2015-08-25T23:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/21 "2015-08-26T13:59:36Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I’ve never heard of a speeding ticket being issued to the owner of the car, without proof of who was actually driving. Huh? That’s SOP here in the UK (well, they go to the registered keeper which is usually the same thing), and it’s up to them to identify the driver. Failure to identify the driver is itself an offence. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/22 "2015-08-26T14:04:33Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Huh? That’s SOP here in the UK (well, they go to the registered keeper which is usually the same thing), and it’s up to them to identify the driver. Failure to identify the driver is itself an offence. Speed cameras are much less common in the US (AFAIK) and the tickets they generate are often not treated the same as regular tickets. (When my town had them, they were just “civil fines” that didn’t go on your record. They were like parking tickets but for speeding or running a red light. You could name someone else as the driver, but if they refused to pay, that was that and you had to pay and collect it from them yourself.) ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/23 "2015-08-26T14:11:41Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > That’s a good point, but in these cases a whole lot more data is collected and there’s a statement from an actual live witness. In fact, I could record contemporaneous verbal remarks such as the plate number if I could pick it up. Are you willing to testify in person? Constitutional right to confront your accuser and all. If not, then this is no different than a non-calibrated non-reliable speed camera with all its constitutional liabilities and none of its advantages (i.e., legally reliable provenance and calibration). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/24 "2015-08-26T15:12:10Z")
I have a better idea. What really matters in the dashcam device is that it has GPS coordinates, a clock, and a recorder. All the rest is details. So let’s sell a version that instead of tattling on other drivers, tattles on the car it’s installed in. Use the camera to get a good pic of the driver to boot so we prevent that pesky _my car but I wasn’t driving it_ defense. And data-link it all right up to Skynet in real time. That seems like a much smarter invention. To be sure installation will need to be mandatory and tampering subject to massive fines or perhaps even execution. But even at its most Big Brotherish it’s a hell of a lot less socially corrosive then the OP’s harebrained idea. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/25 "2015-08-26T16:14:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > How well could you accurately measure the speed of someone going by you just with your dashcam? I was curious, [and found a page on how speed cameras work](http://www.autoevolution.com/news/how-speed-cameras-work-18060.html). Speed cameras on the side of the road work by using detectors built into the road and measuring how fast a car goes between them and taking a picture of the plate. Obviously that’s not relevant for a dashcam. Mobile cameras on police vehicles have radars that send light beams towards vehicles to check the speed, and I don’t believe most standard consumer dashcams have radars included for this. > > I’m not quite sure how you’d measure the speed of a car that speeds past you with just a dashcam. Even assuming that your speedometer is absolutely correct, all you have is a few second video of the car going past you. To get his speed, you’d need some way to measure the distance he traveled, and I don’t see how you would do that accurately. You could do some fair estimations, based on your location, and maybe based on landmarks the speeder is passing, but without military grade GPS and a super precise clock, the numbers still could be off, and then be easily be thrown out. And this is assuming that both of you are traveling at steady speeds; if either of you is accelerating or decelerating that makes things even more difficult. > > Maybe I’m missing something and your car does have radar, in which case ignore my post. But if it doesn’t, I don’t see how this would work. I wouldn’t know how much faster the car was going than me. But if I were driving at the limit, it would still be evident that the car passing me was over the limit. That’s actually a break for the speeders, as they could only be charged for the lowest tier of ticket. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/26 "2015-08-26T16:35:51Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > I’m not quite sure how you’d measure the speed of a car that speeds past you with just a dashcam. Even assuming that your speedometer is absolutely correct, all you have is a few second video of the car going past you. To get his speed, you’d need some way to measure the distance he traveled, and I don’t see how you would do that accurately. You could do some fair estimations, based on your location, and maybe based on landmarks the speeder is passing, but without military grade GPS and a super precise clock, the numbers still could be off, and then be easily be thrown out. And this is assuming that both of you are traveling at steady speeds; if either of you is accelerating or decelerating that makes things even more difficult. I doubt it. I’m sure there’s uncertainty in the measurement you’d make, but, presumably, as long as the low-end of the uncertainty is higher than the speed limit, that’s enough. If someone’s going 50 in a 35, it doesn’t take a very advanced or precise camera system to prove they were going “36 or more”. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/27 "2015-08-26T18:09:40Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I wouldn’t know how much faster the car was going than me. But if I were driving at the limit, it would still be evident that the car passing me was over the limit. That’s actually a break for the speeders, as they could only be charged for the lowest tier of ticket. I guess I was overthinking it. But that still is assuming that you are traveling at the speed limit exactly. I know on my commute to and from work I’m traveling anywhere from 20 under to maybe 5 over depending on traffic. Someone might speed past me and seem to be going to fast to me compared to the rest of the traffic but they still might be within the technical limit. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I doubt it. I’m sure there’s uncertainty in the measurement you’d make, but, presumably, as long as the low-end of the uncertainty is higher than the speed limit, that’s enough. If someone’s going 50 in a 35, it doesn’t take a very advanced or precise camera system to prove they were going “36 or more”. It’s true that if you are going exactly 35, and someone speeds past you at 50, then it would be easy to tell that they are going faster than the speed limit. But without precise measuring, it could be anywhere from 45 to 55. It might be better if speed laws were better enforced, but it seems that now that in many places you won’t get a ticket for 10 mph above the speed limit. And even in this scenario it’s assumed that you are going exactly 35 mph and that your speedometer is pretty accurate, and I don’t know how likely either of those are. If someone flies by you going 70 mph, then clearly they are breaking the law and deserve a ticket, but they’ll be flying by you at 51 ft/sec, and barely be on your camera for any time at all. Would the dash cam pick up a good picture of a license plate going by so quickly? I’m genuinely asking, I don’t have any experience with dash cams. It is an interesting idea. But thinking it over more, I’d be more interested in using dash cams to report people who are talking on their phones or are otherwise distracted, but I don’t know how easy it is to set that up. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/28 "2015-08-26T18:49:19Z")
It is precise speed measuring, via GPS, which people tell me is likely more accurate than my own speedometer. And my exact speed is recorded on the video file and displays at all times in the playback window. The only way to prove anything is to stay at the road’s speed limit, and catch the cars passing me at some significant higher rate. Someone creeping by at a rate very close to my own speed – I wouldn’t even bother with. A dashcam (mine, at least) is not good enough to see through the windows and either ID the drivers or see what they’re doing. Oh, and I have cruise control. On the flat it keeps me at a very constant speed, on moderate hills I might speed up or slow down by 1 or 2 mph. And in those cases the video will confirm my moment to moment speed anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/29 "2015-08-26T18:56:05Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > It is precise speed measuring, via GPS, which people tell me is likely more accurate than my own speedometer. Who tells you? Are they available to testify in court? Can we be assured that your GPS unit hasn’t been tampered with in any way or is functioning correctly? Are you qualified to give evidence based on GPS data? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/30 "2015-08-26T19:01:32Z")
We REALLY don’t want to go any farther down the path to automated law enforcement. A society where computers are legally infallible and unimpeachable would be worse than 1984. A despotic wet dream and a hacker’s paradise. Hardly a society any American, left- or right-leaning, would recognize or tolerate. Be VERY careful what you wish for. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/31 "2015-08-26T19:45:35Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Who tells you? Are they available to testify in court? Can we be assured that your GPS unit hasn’t been tampered with in any way or is functioning correctly? Are you qualified to give evidence based on GPS data? How better to validate the data than to map it over google maps, so as you watch the video you can also watch the track on the map, with every twist and turn and street sign and mile markers on the video and map corresponding exactly? I am at a loss to figure out how it could be faked without being immediately obvious to anyone watching it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/32 "2015-08-26T19:47:07Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Who tells you? Are they available to testify in court? Can we be assured that your GPS unit hasn’t been tampered with in any way or is functioning correctly? Are you qualified to give evidence based on GPS data? [It does sound like GPS speedometers are more accurate than car speedometers](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/whats-more-accurate-the-cars-speedo-or-the-gps/article4348596/): > [@](#): > > “As long as you’re getting good GPS coverage - which you have to realize can be affected by signals bouncing off downtown city buildings or mountains - the accuracy is within about 0.2 of a kilometre per hour.” > > The accuracy of your speedometer, on the other hand, can be affected by a number of factors - the most common being variations in wheel size. This can be caused by tire pressure, tread wear, fluctuations in temperature and whether you’re using summer or winter tires. However, this article also discusses GPS readings in court. It’s discussing using GPS readings to get tickets thrown out, not using them to prove that someone else was speeding, but I think it’s still relevant: > [@](#): > > When cruising down the highway, GPS will probably provide the most accurate measure of your speed - but the conditions must be right to rely on this technology. As one B.C. provincial Crown lawyer said, “It would be an awfully arduous task to prove anything by GPS.” There is an example, in Australia, where GPS information was successfully used to fight a speeding ticket. Several Canadian lawyers I contacted, though, say they wouldn’t want to stand behind a GPS reading in court. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/33 "2015-08-26T19:50:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > It’s true that if you are going exactly 35, and someone speeds past you at 50, then it would be easy to tell that they are going faster than the speed limit. But without precise measuring, it could be anywhere from 45 to 55. It might be better if speed laws were better enforced, but it seems that now that in many places you won’t get a ticket for 10 mph above the speed limit. And even in this scenario it’s assumed that you are going exactly 35 mph and that your speedometer is pretty accurate, and I don’t know how likely either of those are. Agreed. And the distinction actually does matter, since in my state, doing 10 over won’t earn you a ticket by any automated system, but doing 20 _can_ earn you a reckless, depending. Heck, even doing the speed limit in poor conditions can technically earn a citation. > [@](#): > > If someone flies by you going 70 mph, then clearly they are breaking the law and deserve a ticket, but they’ll be flying by you at 51 ft/sec, and barely be on your camera for any time at all. Would the dash cam pick up a good picture of a license plate going by so quickly? I’m genuinely asking, I don’t have any experience with dash cams. It depends on a number of factors, especially with so many different devices available. Lighting (or any glare), to chosen recording quality, frame rate, recording angle, distance from vehicle (are they two lanes over?), etc. Mine can generally catch someone doing maybe ~15-20 over, if all other conditions (including no road vibrations) are ideal, but around here, the majority of traffic drives 15 over, all the time. Now if someone were doing 90-100 in a 55, which is more obviously excessive, I’m not confident I’d be able to get a clear capture. The best video will come from cars directly in front, on smooth ground, with clear, good lighting. You can go on YouTube and watch tons of dashcam footage to get an idea. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/34 "2015-08-26T19:58:47Z")
Even if a car goes by too fast to catch the plates in motion, odds are you can still save a frame and blow it up to read the plate. At least that’s my experience so far. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/35 "2015-08-27T06:19:09Z")
> [@TwoCarrotSnowman](#): > > Essentially, we could turn all vehicles which had the system fitted (and if we’ve gone this far, we might as well it mandatory) into a mobile, automatic speed camera. And the whole thing would be funded by the massive leap in fine revenues. They’d LOVE this in St. Louis County! ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/36 "2015-08-28T18:17:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > It’s true that if you are going exactly 35, and someone speeds past you at 50, then it would be easy to tell that they are going faster than the speed limit. But without precise measuring, it could be anywhere from 45 to 55. It might be better if speed laws were better enforced, but it seems that now that in many places you won’t get a ticket for 10 mph above the speed limit. And even in this scenario it’s assumed that you are going exactly 35 mph and that your speedometer is pretty accurate, and I don’t know how likely either of those are. That’s a totally different issue, though. The camera system can easily prove that someone is going faster than the speed limit, which is all I claimed. If the enforcing body doesn’t want to give a ticket out except for really egregious violations, well, then they can of course choose not use the totally valid evidence they have. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/37 "2015-08-28T23:36:51Z")
You’re not supposed to junior mod, but you’re also not supposed to junior cop. If you really think the road you “patrol” is a problem, report it to the police or city/county/state government (depending on who has jurisdiction of the road in question) and let them deal with it. If you really want to enforce the speed limit yourself, you should apply to join the police. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/38 "2015-08-29T00:49:49Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What? You’ve never heard of camera tickets? There are a whole lot of them. Despite what’s said above about lawsuits, such tickets continue to be issued every day. Even in California, land of “if we can make a law against it, we will”, a red light camera that does not get a clear image of the driver is not enforceable. Depending on jurisdiction, you may also get a [very sketchy letter which insinuates that you need to rat out the driver](http://www.dailybreeze.com/general-news/20130723/ask-the-lawyer-whats-a-snitch-ticket-anyway) when that is not really the case. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Even if a car goes by too fast to catch the plates in motion, odds are you can still save a frame and blow it up to read the plate. At least that’s my experience so far. [ENHANCE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiqkclCJsZs)! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/39 "2015-08-30T05:33:50Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > And then another thought, what if EVERYONE with a dashcam that met certain data gathering criteria, could send clips to law enforcement and collect a reward (let’s ballpark it at 25% of the ticket)? This would be a major roadblock in your plan. Here in Minnesota (and in most states) the revenue from tickets is divided up to the 1/10th of a percent to various groups, and they all very strenuously guard their percentage of it. Some of the factors that enter into where the ticket money goes: - Is the ticket issuer a city police officer, a county deputy sheriff, or a state highway patrol officer? - did the offense happen on a city street, a county road, or a state highway? - was the equipment used to record the offense (radar gun, etc.) purchased entirely with local money, or partly funded by state money or a federal grant to the state? - is the offense being charged in a local traffic court, or in a county criminal court? - is the prosecution being done by a City Attorney, or the County Attorney? - is any possible incarceration from the offense in a county jail or a state prison? - when the offender was arrested, were any drugs or alcohol found in the vehicle? (Each of those has special programs that get a cut of the money.) No doubt there are more that I can’t remember. I once served on a Legislative Commission on rewriting State Statutes & Sentencing Guidelines, and we were carefully warned not to not to touch the traffic ticket revenue stream, if we wanted to get anything passed. Also, posters mentioned a “massive leap in fine revenues”. Already, there is a sizable percentage of fines that go unpaid, and are effectively uncollectable (offender has no money, or it would cost more to collect it than is owed). I think that any big increase in tickets from this proposal would include an even bigger percentage of unpaid/uncollectable fines. And there’s certainly greater overhead in processing this dashcam video, identifying the location, mailing out the ticket, keeping track of the accuser, etc. than in processing a standard ticket written by an officer & handed to the driver. And all that overhead is spent beforehand, regardless of whether the government can ever collect on the fine or not. So I don’t see this as workable (or desirable). ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-this-dashcam-traffic-ticket-scheme-legal/728898/40 "2015-08-30T15:25:32Z")
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