# What would it take to make you leave the U.S.A. \*and\* renounce your citizenship? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748 "2016-03-02T18:53:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/41 "2016-03-03T18:13:22Z")
If I knew the President had ordered me killed with a drone strike. OTOH, I might move into the center of Manhattan and hope that the collateral damage would discourage the strike. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/42 "2016-03-03T19:30:08Z")
I have seriously considered it. The tax thing is really annoying once a year, but no big deal (have to file, but don’t have to pay since Canadian taxes are higher anyway). In the end, the advantages of being an American outweigh the disadvantages. The only way I could see renouncing my citizenship is after I retire, after my parents and aunts and uncles have passed on. If the worst-case scenarios for the US play out, I can see renouncing in maybe 2030, but it’s like family: you may not be able to live with it, but you don’t abandon it just because it bugs the shit out of you. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/43 "2016-03-03T19:53:39Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Who ever uses the word “renounce”? > > Unless you’re in some Victorian novel you let it go, give it up - something less dramatic or pejorative. Plenty of people use the term “renounce” in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/44 "2016-03-03T20:21:24Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Who ever uses the word “renounce”? > > Unless you’re in some Victorian novel you let it go, give it up - something less dramatic or pejorative. I think renounce covers the situation better than giving it up. Giving something up implies you’ve just stopped doing something - it’s an action you’re no longer taking. Renouncing something is the opposite - it describes something that takes no effort to continue but you have to take an action to end it. So you can give up voting simply by not registering or you can give up driving by not renewing your license. These are things you can stop by inaction. Citizenship, on the other hand, is like being on a mailing list - it will continue forever if you do nothing. To stop something like this, you have to take an action and tell somebody to stop whatever it is. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/45 "2016-03-03T22:02:52Z")
To renounce your US citizenship requires a lot of formalities, paying fees, and making a statement at a US embassy or consulate abroad. And generally the consular or embassy staff will not accept the renunciation without proof of holding other citizenship. But there is the possibility for [intentionally losing one’s US citizenship](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html) by committing certain acts with the intent of losing citizenship. This is separate from renunciation, and can apparently avoid a lot of the fees. > [@US State Dept website](#): > > **Potentially Expatriating Acts** > Section 349 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. nationals are subject to loss of nationality if they perform certain _specified_ acts _voluntarily_ and _with the intention to relinquish_ U.S. nationality. Briefly stated, these acts include: > [ol] > [li]obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon one’s own application after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);[/li][li]taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or its political subdivisions after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);[/li][li]entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the United States or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);[/li][li]accepting employment with a foreign government after the age of 18 if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. our y349 (a) (4) INA);[/li][li]formally renouncing U.S. nationality before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);[/li]…[/ol] So… go get a job with a foreign government that makes you swear an oath to the government. If you do so voluntarily and with the intention to lose your US citizenship, you can inform the US diplomatic staff of that and ask that they acknowledge the loss of your US citizenship. It might take many tries, but it has been done. FWIW I work for a foreign government. Put that right on my tax forms each year. But I didn’t take an oat of allegiance to the government and I have had no intention of losing my US citizenship, so I’m still 'murican. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/46 "2016-03-03T23:14:05Z")
Waitaminnit…if I truly hate America and want nothing to do with the place, I have to PAY AMERICA to formally break up with her? What if I don’t have the money or don’t want to pay? Do I have to then wear my citizenship like an anchor? Can’t I just trade citizenships with some other body who wants to relocate TO the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/47 "2016-03-03T23:45:24Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > To renounce your US citizenship requires a lot of formalities, paying fees, and making a statement at a US embassy or consulate abroad. And generally the consular or embassy staff will not accept the renunciation without proof of holding other citizenship. > > But there is the possibility for [intentionally losing one’s US citizenship](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html) by committing certain acts with the intent of losing citizenship. This is separate from renunciation, and can apparently avoid a lot of the fees. > > So… go get a job with a foreign government that makes you swear an oath to the government. If you do so voluntarily and with the intention to lose your US citizenship, you can inform the US diplomatic staff of that and ask that they acknowledge the loss of your US citizenship. It might take many tries, but it has been done. > > FWIW I work for a foreign government. Put that right on my tax forms each year. But I didn’t take an oat of allegiance to the government and I have had no intention of losing my US citizenship, so I’m still 'murican. Much of your quoted information is moot after several SCOTUS and other court decisions. Generally speaking, a native born American citizen has to take deliberate steps to lose their citizenship. You cannot lose it accidentally or automatically. The State Department continues to play games and needlessly scare people. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/48 "2016-03-04T00:34:10Z")
If a civil war broke out. Even then, I think I’d rather move to one of the good parts (probably seattle, I doubt the civil war would strike there). Honestly, I can’t think of any situations that would screw the US up so badly that I wanted to leave, but the rest of the world was any better. If the US descends into chaos, then I’m sure France and Japan will too. The only thing that does make me want to leave with any seriousness is health care. The ACA helped a little bit, but the idea of losing my life’s savings due to getting cancer is very unsettling and has made me calculate how many points I can get to immigrate to Canada or Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/49 "2016-03-04T01:44:36Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Much of your quoted information is moot after several SCOTUS and other court decisions. Generally speaking, a native born American citizen has to take deliberate steps to lose their citizenship. You cannot lose it accidentally or automatically. The State Department continues to play games and needlessly scare people. The quoted information is current, as of today, straight from the US State Department’s website. Note… you cannot accidentally lose citizenship by doing one of those things. You must do so _with the intention of losing your citizenship_ in order to lose US Nationality. It is precisely for that reason that I can freely write on my tax forms that my employer is a foreign government. No big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/50 "2016-03-04T11:58:15Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > The quoted information is current, as of today, straight from the US State Department’s website. > > Note… you cannot accidentally lose citizenship by doing one of those things. You must do so _with the intention of losing your citizenship_ in order to lose US Nationality. > > It is precisely for that reason that I can freely write on my tax forms that my employer is a foreign government. No big deal. You can accidently retain your citizenship even if your intention was to loose it by one of those methods. One false step, and it’s “Aha! – you never really intended to loose your American citizenship” Anyway, 1. My son isn’t eligible for American citizenship. You want to hold onto me as a citizen, but won’t take my son? FT. 2. There is some stuff I can’t do while retaining foreign citizenship. Lots of security stuff of course, but some other stuff as well. Not important to me. 3. As long as I have foreign citizenship, I can be arbitrarly deported, regardless of my local citizenship. My son, of course, would have to stay here, because (see point 1). ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/51 "2016-03-04T15:25:08Z")
What it would take? More money than 10x the total assets combined of every single person who’d ever read this post, tax free, and safe in accounts in banks on Grand Cayman. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/52 "2016-03-04T17:13:23Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > What it would take? > > More money than 10x the total assets combined of every single person who’d ever read this post, tax free, and safe in accounts in banks on Grand Cayman. Alas our banks here in Cayman will still make you fill out all sorts of forms related to US taxes, if only to establish that they are not required to make disclosures related to FATCA and FBAR filings. The long arm of the IRS reaches even into the financial dealings of non citizens residing in foreign countries. A bit scary. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/53 "2016-03-04T19:43:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Terry Gilliam renounced his American citizenship. He wasn’t stateless because he already had British citizenship. He lives in the United Kingdom and Italy. > > The practical result of this is Gilliam now has limitations on how long he can reside in the United States. He cannot be in the United States for more than twenty-nine days a year. A British citizen who is not a former American citizen can reside in the United States for up to ninety days and can generally have more than one ninety-day period in a year. This is one of the reasons I’m having a long and hard think about renouncing mine (Terry Gilliam and other former citizens’ subsequent relationship with the US), as other posters have noted in this thread ahead of me ( **Iamnotivan** especially). I’m a UK citizen now, but still have to file US income taxes every year – I don’t have to pay, but it’s a pain in the arse, as it costs a fortune due to all of the paperwork. The IRS wants to know everything about my UK wages and bank accounts (thanks to FATCA), and I have to have a special form that says I have the equivalent of Obamacare (I have a NIN and pay taxes in to the NHS, etc). I can’t do any joint banking with Mr Boods or have my name on a mortgage with him – partly because the IRS would want all of those details, but also because they’d want his financial details, even though he’s a British born citizen. It hasn’t happened in the UK yet, but a number of banks througout the world will no longer have American ex pats as their customers (even if they’ve become naturalised in their new country) because of the intrusive financial demands of the US on the banks where ex-pats have accounts. I have to travel to the US on my US passport as the British one would be rejected, and ever since I’ve had resident status in the UK, US immigration people at the airports when I fly in treat me like absolute shit – last flight into San Francisco in January, matey queried the home address on my landing card, and then started asking me how long I was going to be in the US, where was I staying, what would I be doing, could I demonstrate that I had a return ticket back out. If I didn’t still have an annual US conference and vestiges of family bullshit to sort in America, I’d be behind **kferr** in the queue. No emotional attachment, &c, to the US. Feh. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/54 "2016-03-05T11:04:22Z")
Boods - wtf? Normally\* its only non citizens of thw destination that fill in a landing card - or has it changed recently? \*(im Also a dual citizen, but havent visited usa in a long time) ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/55 "2016-03-05T13:44:13Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > Boods - wtf? Normally\* its only non citizens of thw destination that fill in a landing card - or has it changed recently? > \*(im Also a dual citizen, but havent visited usa in a long time) As an American living abroad I have to fill in a Customs declaration and use the handy kiosks to attempt to clear immigration. EVERY SINGLE TIME the kiosk kicks me to speak in person with an agent. And I get the same sorts of questions as Ms Boods. It’s not a lnading card as such, but smae effect. Last time I asked if I could kindly just skip the damn kiosk and go straight to the agent. No dice. I have a trip next month and and contemplating getting a bit snarky. I am an American citizen. What business is it of their where I am going to stay or how long I intend to remain in the States!? Alas Mrs Iggy is Colombian, so that is the only other nationality I might pick up easily. Really not much help as far as international travel goes, other than visa free entry to Brazil. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/56 "2016-03-05T13:56:57Z")
It wasnt like that 15 years ago. When did it change ? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/57 "2016-03-05T16:11:02Z")
> [@Ms\_Boods](#): > > I can’t do any joint banking with Mr Boods or have my name on a mortgage with him – partly because the IRS would want all of those details, but also because they’d want his financial details, even though he’s a British born citizen. This is a major issue for us. We have a mortgage together, but that was okay because the US didn’t recognize gay marriage. Now they do, and all of a sudden I’ll be in heaps of trouble if I don’t report **Mr. Mallard** ’s financial everything. But he refuses, because he’s (1) not an America, and (2) not in America, and (3) doesn’t earn money from America. And I agree with him: I can’t see how the IRS has an jurisdiction over him, and I can’t see how they can force me to be their agent without paying me for my work. He wouldn’t have married me if that particular condition had applied, or else I would have given up citizenship beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/58 "2016-03-05T16:20:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I had to consider that as my 18th birthday approached, and decided I’d go to Nam or to jail before abandoning my country. A lot has happened since then, but I still don’t see it happening. Not to deflate your balloon or anything, but I seem to recall you and I are the same age, and the draft was over by the time I approached 18, and we were getting out of Vietnam (I was 16 in 1972, which I would consider "approaching 18)). Are you thinking of when you were, maybe, 14? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/59 "2016-03-05T18:21:30Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > It wasnt like that 15 years ago. When did it change ? The dreaded kiosk system, formally [Automated Passport Control](http://www.cbp.gov/travel/us-citizens/automated-passport-control-apc)\*, was instituted to work along with [Mobile Passport Control](http://www.cbp.gov/travel/us-citizens/mobile-passport-control) (an app) to expedite Immigration and Customs clearance. MPC launched August 2014. APC launched in July 2013. Roll out of both programs is continuing and may not be available at all airports. At least for me these systems do not work. Makes the process longer and more difficult. Not sure if it targets all American expats. - Despite the name, Automated Passport Control is for Customs, not Immigration clearance. You enter your details at the kiosk before reaching Immigration. If the system flags you, you must speak to an Immigration officer, which I have had to do every time since this system was implemented. I’ve actually be waived through by the Customs people when this happens. ---
**Author:** ![kferr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@kferr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kferr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748/60 "2016-03-06T13:40:23Z")
There are enough people looking into renunciation that the US embassy in London has a [page on their website](https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/citizenship/loss-of-u-s-citizenship/) explaining all the details. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-make-you-leave-the-u-s-a-and-renounce-your-citizenship/747748.md?page=2)