# What Would It Take to Prove God's Existence to You? Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005 "2000-08-20T00:47:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/1 "2000-08-20T00:47:24Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] [What Would It Take to Prove God’s Existence to You?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=33749&pagenumber=lastpage) is not showing new posts, so I’m starting this thread and locking the old one. I’d advise checking out the old thread since there’s been some posts since the last one that shows in the topic listing, but please continue the debate in this thread. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/2 "2000-08-20T04:21:21Z")
I am honored! A post that I started is moving on to Part II. Some of you have complained that the Marathon Posts are too hard to follow, and I have to agree upon looking back over them. I will try to put mini-headings as I go so you will see more clearly who I’m responding to, and from which page it’s coming from. **My Response to Ben (Top of Page 4)** You said: > [@](#): > > But what kind of screwy entity do you worship, if it lets friendless people die because they have no one to pray for them? Don’t take this harshly Ben, but _boy_ do you read a lot into things! You’re making dramatic, sweeping assumptions in this statement. Essentially, you are asking the broader question, “Why does a good God allow evil?” In this specific case, how can a good God allow the evil of someone dying who has no one to pray for them? This deserves an entire thread of it’s own, and once this one dies down I actually would like to start a thread on this very subject. But to give you something to chew on in the meantime: the key to grasping this issue is grasping the value God places on giving us freedom to choose. In giving us freedom to choose what we want in life, God limits Himself to not intervening in human life unless He is asked (ie, prayer). He is a gentleman. The hard part is that it applies across the board. This is merely the tip of the iceburg … as I said it deserves a whole topic. Next, I said God will one day take away the curse of sin and you said: > [@](#): > > Your deity must dread that day- once sin is gone, free will is gone, and so the love which it so desires will be impossible, because humans will all be obedient little sinless puppets. While I don’t _fully_ grasp what will happen to us after we go to be with God in heaven, to say that it’s not a choice of free will is incorrect. By _my_ free will, right now, I would _LOVE_ to be changed into someone who _always_ obeys Jesus and lives for Him at all times. That’s not possible on earth but will be in heaven. Therefore, it’s my choice. > [@](#): > > You make it sound like once people are sent to ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL they’re conveniently swept under the rug, so you can forget about them. Tell me, FoG- how much will you enjoy heaven if you spend eternity watching people being tortured? Well I didn’t mean for it to sound that way, but I will say this … I don’t plan on spending my days in heaven watching people being tortured (I don’t even know if that’s possible from heaven anyway)! I plan on enjoying God’s presence and the fellowship of His people for all eternity. > [@](#): > > Was it a mistake for Eve to eat the apple? If it was a mistake, then how can you call her perfect? Perfect beings _by definition_ don’t make mistakes. In one sense they were perfect because they weren’t tainted by sin. They were not created with a tendency toward sin. They were created with a free will, and when they _used_ that free will to make a wrong choice, they _became_ imperfect. Look at it this way – if I create a perfectly sculpted puppet and a cat scratches it, it has _become_ imperfect. > [@](#): > > I asked for that grace, and got a deafening silence. Very frequently during that time I prayed, “Thy will be done, and not mine.” So what happened? I got no answer at all. I can’t promise an answer, but I’d for sure need more info to even make a shot at it. Was this a time in your life when you had given your heart and soul to Jesus Christ? What were you expecting God to do in response? Finally, I had talked about the “No Compromise” book and how Keith Green had researched religions and came to the conclusion that Christianity was the only way. You said: > [@](#): > > Are you serious? Of all the thousands of religions in the world, past and present, this man spent enough time on _all_ of them to properly evaluate them? I never said _all_. He did personally experience and research many of them however. I think his life is well worth studying. Well … I was moving on down page 4 and I came to another post by Ben directed at me, which said in part: > [@](#): > > FoG, how about this: you tell me what book I read while I ate supper today, and I will give serious consideration to whether Jesus was really resurrected. Nope. I sincerely doubt that if I asked that God would respond, and I would never ask anyway. God isn’t into giving magic shows. Not to mention, I’ve _never_ seen Him give a prophetic word through someone that wasn’t somehow _meaningful_ to the person’s personal life. **My Response to Ura-Maru (Page 4)** You said in the midst of the whole attempted-prophesy thing: > [@](#): > > You’ve complemented people for having a certain skepticism in regards to mircles in this thread. So why do you respond with so much hostility when someone actually does so? It was the tone in which it was done that bugged me. I have no problem with people being skeptical but this struck me as being an attack and not a polite disagreement or bit of skepticism. There were a lot of assumptions about motives and so forth which were unnecessary in my opinion. **My Response to jb\_farley (Page 4)** I just saw the link you posted! I didn’t realize that thread was addressed to me. Thanks for posting the link. I am going to send you an email in response right now. Be looking for it. That’s it for now, I’m going to send an email to jb and then try to come back here and continue if possible. ---
**Author:** ![noraw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@noraw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noraw)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/3 "2000-08-20T04:34:58Z")
[Belief in God is Blind Faith–either you get it or you don’t----you obviously don’t. QUOTE]\*Originally posted by Gaudere \* \*\*[Moderator Hat ON] [What Would It Take to Prove God’s Existence to You?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=33749&pagenumber=lastpage) is not showing new posts, so I’m starting this thread and locking the old one. I’d advise checking out the old thread since there’s been some posts since the last one that shows in the topic listing, but please continue the debate in this thread. [Moderator Hat OFF] \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/4 "2000-08-20T05:13:43Z")
FoG’s solution to marathon posts is to make them longer by adding unnecessary headers to every paragraph?!? Let me try this again, using one-syllable words: _Your posts are too long._ ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/5 "2000-08-20T05:33:22Z")
**My Response to Matt (Page 4}** > [@](#): > > FoG - I’m very impressed with your dedication - you’re putting a lot of time and effort into this! Thanks! 🙂 > [@](#): > > My point was that there is no way to demonstrate the healing power of prayer Well, I actually would say it can be demonstrated on a case by case basis, unless your standard is that “everyone who gets prayed for must be healed”. In every healing service I’ve ever been in or heard about, some get healed and some don’t, and at this stage in history, no one is quite sure _why_ this is. But isn’t the fact that _anyone_ gets healed, even _one_ person, miraculous? > [@](#): > > As to our sins “cursing the Earth as a whole” - this is an important point for me. You want to learn how atheists think - well THIS atheist finds such a concept unacceptable. It is a very human trait to punish the innocent along with the guilty - that’s why e.g. the terrorist groups in Northern Ireland avenge one atrocity against innocents with another. But it is utterly unworthy of the supreme being in the universe to behave in this way. Here is something to consider. I don’t believe this has anything to do with God “punishing” anyone. I think it’s just a case of cause and effect. We sin and the earth is cursed as a result. > [@](#): > > I COULD believe that the universe has a guiding intelligence and creator - it’s no worse or better than believing the universe has no guiding intelligence or creator. But the Christian God as described in the Bible just doesn’t fit the bill. He’s too small. Interesting. Would you elaborate? Why do you say the Christian God is “too small”? > [@](#): > > The word of encouragement, however, is appreciated! Well, since I got a _little_ burned by my last attempt at prophesy, I’ll just say a simple prayer of encouragement for you, how’s that? 🙂 I’ll just type as I pray: “Lord I pray for matt, that you will guide him in his theses and other writings he has to do. Help him gather his thoughts and let the research he’s doing come together for him easily. Give him enjoyment in the project through your grace. In Jesus name, amen” Amen 🙂 **My Response to Falcon (midway through page 4)** > [@](#): > > My understanding of hell was that it was separation from GOD, not from others. Well, it might be both for all we know! There are many theories but for sure it isn’t a pleasant place. I would not be surprised if it did involve total separation from every living thing. Ouch, that bites! > [@](#): > > Not that it matters, really…I don’t believe in hell anyway. I know. Out of sincere curiosity, have you ever considered the rather huge consequences if you happen to be wrong? > [@](#): > > And thanks for the invite, but spending eternity in a place where I’d be hated for being the pro-choice, tolerant, funloving Witch that I am doesn’t sound like much of a party. Oh, please don’t believe that’s how God sees you. He loves you completely and totally just the way you are right now! Falcon, God has given me a soft spot in my heart for you. I think He wants to comfort you and encourage you in ways that I can’t begin to know about. I pray that you will be open to him. On another note: thanks for your website with the pics! I finally got to see what Guadere, DavidB, Satan, you, and many of the others look like! It was very well laid out! **My Response to stuffinb(Middle Page 4)** > [@](#): > > FoG, I don’t want you to think this is a decision I made lightly. We’re talking about a significant change for me. I’d been raised in the church. My grandfather and his father is/were ministers. I sought (I think I’ve already mentioned that I graduated form Golden Gate Seminary in Marin County) answers and received none. Faith did not work for me, and if not for me, how do I tell others it should be enough for them? That was my quandary. It was a responsibility that I could not take. Interesting. I confess I would like to hear more. Why do you feel that faith didn’t “work” for you? **My Response to further (Middle Page 4)** > [@](#): > > You can try and convince me that the DH rule is really good for baseball, or that God exists, but in my life it’s not a big enough deal for me to really care. It doesn’t affect me one way or the other. Just one tidbit as food for thought: how do you know it doesn’t affect you one way or the other if you’ve never experienced it? **My Response to Scupper (Middle Page 4)** > [@](#): > > My question would be, didn’t God also create Satan? Why? Was Satan’s fall caused by his own free will? If so, doesn’t that imply that Satan wasn’t perfect (because he made the wrong choice without any mitigating factors)? So he wasn’t perfect? And therefore God created an imperfect creature? Same answer as I gave earlier to someone else: God created Lucifer perfect. In fact he was apparently the _worship_ leader in heaven! But he chose to sin and _became_ imperfect. Believe me, _MANY_ Christians (myself included) have asked God in prayer, “Um, HELLO! Why on earth did you create Satan?” We ask because he’s a major pest to Christians. I don’t fully know the answer but hopefully what I just said was food for thought. **My Response to bradysg** > [@](#): > > Friend of God, you’ve said that the fact that there are millions of people who have become born-again is proof that there is a God, because they must have experienced him/her in their life. How can you say that when there are also millions of people who have decided that there isn’t a God. Okay, maybe that wasn’t the best point to make. One thing I might try to _salvage_ from this point, however, is the fact that if so many _do_ say they believe in God it’s worth seeing _why_. And it’s worth seeing why others say they _don’t_ believe in God. Check out all the evidence in other words. > [@](#): > > I tend to follow the conceit that 1.Man is fallable, 2. The Church is run by Men, 3. The church is fallable Actually I AGREE totally! But this doesn’t mean God is not real. God, for whatever reason, chooses to use imperfect people to execute His will in the earth. > [@](#): > > I think that if you believe in God, that’s good for you, but when you try to get people to convert when they are unwilling, aren’t you subverting their free will? By trying to prove God to a group of athiests, aren’t you negating the thing that you claim is so very precious to your religion? No I’m not subverting anyone’s free will. No one has to read this post, for example. I’m simply making the gospel _available_ and hopefully clear to as many people as are willing to listen. If someone’s unwilling to believe in God and doesn’t want to listen to what I have to say, that’s fine! I’m primarily here for those who are open and willing to consider the possibilities. **My Response to mangeorge(Halfway thru page 4)** > [@](#): > > you haven’t even come close to offering any proof at all … Remember, you offered proof. Nope. I just asked what it would take to prove God to you, later amended to ask what it would take to bring you to a place where you believe God existed. I never did, and won’t now, say I can “prove” God. I am merely trying to encourage everyone to look at the possibility of His existence. **My (Partial) Response to Dr. Lao(Mid Page 4)** Like someone else recently said, I really enjoy your posts. You really seem to think things out. Since I like to really respond in-depth to the points you make, and since I’m zoning out, I’m going to stop here for now, but you’ll be first on my list when I continue this (hopefully tomorrow). G’night friends’n’neighbors! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Falcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/49beb7/32.png) [@Falcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falcon)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/6 "2000-08-20T07:28:20Z")
FoG - > [@](#): > > I know. Out of sincere curiosity, have you ever considered the rather huge consequences if you happen to be wrong? For me, there are no consequences if I am wrong on hell. My belief system does not include it. When I die…that’s pretty much it. Finis. And I’m not a big fan of Pascal’s Wager, which seems to be what you’re getting at with that comment. Seeing as it’s 3am and I’m still a bit buzzed, I’ll let someone else debunk that for me. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Oh, please don’t believe that’s how God sees you. He loves you completely and totally just the way you are right now! Falcon, God has given me a soft spot in my heart for you. I think He wants to comfort you and encourage you in ways that I can’t begin to know about. I pray that you will be open to him. Perhaps I misphrased. My Goddess, who I see as another aspect of your God (I take the idea that ALL Gods are facets of one higher power) does not feel that way. However, His FOLLOWERS are another story. And yes, they DO feel that way. And have told me to my FACE. And y’all are SO sure you’ll end up in heaven, so I’d be stuck with that. Although sometimes the thought of the looks on their faces is almost worth it. But I don’t believe in heaven either, so it’s kinda a moot point. As for the other…I will take whatever comfort is offered. As many here know from going over to MPSIMS, my life is…well…difficult at the moment. I will accept sympathy. I will not accept conversion attempts. I was Catholic for 23 years. I feel better as a Pagan than I ever have in my life. And sad to say - your God was not open to me when I sliced my arms open. I see no reason to return a favor not given. And finally…thank you. It’s not much of a web page, but I enjoy messing around with it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/7 "2000-08-20T09:09:45Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## God go always with you. > > Sometimes your short enigmatic statements can be frustrating. Other times, like this, they can be quite enlightening. Some may think this statement is a typo. You used the plural “go” instead of the singular “goes” when describing what God will do. I think, however, you are trying to say God is within us and around us, so the plural designation is appropriate. Am I right? Actually, I was using an imperative, in the manner of “peace be with you”. But you are right that God is within us. “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.” — Jesus ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/8 "2000-08-20T10:31:08Z")
Hello again, FoG! Re the healing power of prayer: You asked **"But isn’t the fact that _anyone_ gets healed, even _one_ person, miraculous?"** It is in your worldview, it isn’t in mine. I would need evidence that more people are healed through prayer than are healed by merely believing that they are being prayed for. (Hence that “placebo prayer” thing we talked about earlier. But you can’t do a “clean” experiment.) Re “our sins cursing the Earth as a whole”: You said **"Here is something to consider. I don’t believe this has anything to do with God “punishing” anyone. I think it’s just a case of cause and effect. We sin and the earth is cursed as a result."** If God is the Creator of everything, he is totally responsible for all aspects of the universe in which we live in _including_ any “cause and effect” rules. If one of the consequences of us sinning is birth defects, it’s because he made it so. And this is punishing the innocent along with the guilty. Re the possibility of a guiding intelligence and/or Creator in the universe, and the Christian God being “too small”. The universe is undoubtedly here. It is vast beyond comprehension, yet so complex you could spend a lifetime exporing a single drop of pond water. Either there is design and purpose behind its existence, or else there isn’t. Some people believe that something so wonderful and complex cannot exist without a creator, BUT those people _also_ believe something as wonderful and complex as a creator CAN exist without a creator. The situations are equally mysterious and incomprehensible. So as far the question of design and purpose is concerned, I guess I’m an agnostic! The religions of the world, particularly the Judao-Christian religions, claim that we are central to the purpose of the universe. That the Being who made the whole incredible thing, from the smallest subatomic particle through every living thing, sunsets, Saturn’s rings and supernovae, did it so He could be _worshipped_ and _obeyed_ by us. I find this concept just plain PITIFUL. Very human, very petty, very self-centred. (Or human-centred! Whatever.) That’s what I mean about the Christian God being “too small.” For me, the God of the christian religion is very obviously an invention of Man, with all of Man’s less-than-wonderful attributes. So as far as religions are concerned, I’m an atheist. You have your own personal relationship with your God. You have a worldview where God is involved in earthly events - you believe in prayer and prophesy, miracles, life after death and Heaven and Hell. My worldview is utterly different and not remotely compatible with yours! I do respect yours though, and so I thank you for your prayer. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/9 "2000-08-20T12:53:11Z")
Now that we’re starting anew, and I have a couple minutes, **Polycarp** , did you see my response to the situation you provided that you had wanted me to analyze? I didn’t notice any reply from you, but I kind of got lost in that thread. I just wanted to make sure you weren’t still waiting on something else from me. ---
**Author:** ![dixiechiq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@dixiechiq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dixiechiq)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/10 "2000-08-20T15:51:04Z")
what would it take to prove god’s existence to me?? the whole story of [christian] god is so obviously a superstitious fairy tale that i can’t fathom believing in it. it is full of contradictions. it is a study in anti-rigorous thinking. it requires one to suspend reason. if, somehow, i were to see god i’d have to conclude i was hallucinating. there is no presentation of god that i’ve come into contact with that could possibly be real. there is no way god’s existence can be proven to me. no god i have ever heard of is even remotely possible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/11 "2000-08-20T17:03:15Z")
Direct question to FoG: What justification can be made for an infinitely long and infinitely painful punishment? I can think of no “sin” that could justify it. It could not possibly be for the purpose of rehabilitation, so there is no release. It cannot be for learning a lesson, since any lesson learned cannot possibly be applied. It cannot be for teaching others not to sin, since the only ones with direct evidence _are already there_. It cannot be said that we “choose” to go to hell, since this is the same as my holding a gun to your head and asking you to either “choose” to give me your wallet, or die. Your god created Hell. Your god set the terms for punishment. Your god is giving us the false choice of believing(without clear evidence of what to believe, I might add) or being punished forever. Can you make any sense of this? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/12 "2000-08-20T17:47:22Z")
To **David B** : Yes, I did, and the analysis was useful, if not quite what I had anticipated getting (i.e., you flagged an assumption that I had inadvertently slipped in, which confuted the logical sequence all by itself without recourse to error in logic on my part. I apologize for not responding; work was busy and there are “so many threads; so little time” – a sentiment I’m sure you have had occasion to utter as well!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/13 "2000-08-20T18:05:34Z")
Slythe, I realize that I’m jumping into the middle of a question betweeen you and FoG, but may I redirect the point you address to the dialogue Gaudere and I had on this, and get your reactions _as a hypothesis_ to the “divine justice” system I suggested to her. Obviously I am not expecting you to buy it as what actually happens (-- yet;)) but to see if it adequately addresses the problem you have identified with FoG’s comments on God’s justice and mercy. First, note that Jesus distinguishes “the sin (or blasphemy) against the Holy Spirit” from all other sins, the first being unforgivable and the others forgivable. Now, historically, most theologians have taken the sin against the Holy Spirit to mean, not saying something blasphemous against the HS as the KJV translation would suggest (Saying “The Holy Spirit felches comatose aardvarks,” while obnoxious, is not such a sin.), but rather the intentional and continual rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit in fostering a relationship with God and the consequent regeneration of the individual spirit within the human being so choosing. And my point to Gaudere was that to forgive this, to count it as of no matter, is for God to strip away the ultimate in free will – “You can choose freely to go or not to go, but whatever you say, you’re going.” He **has** to leave the door open for you to walk out, even if He has the power to force you to stay, and will welcome you back anytime you decide to turn around and come back in. Otherwise He is failing His own criteria for giving free will, justice, and mercy. _Any_ other sin can be forgiven, and FoG and I are agreed that He is a loving god who never stops trying to get you into a relationship where you will ask for and receive forgiveness. (We differ on whether some things may be considered sins, so let’s not jump up and down about some issue that some halfassed Baptist decided you were sinning about – generically, if you do sin in some way, he’s anxious that you end up seeing that situation as ultimately harmful (and therefore sinful) and want out of it, and will gladly give you a hand out of it. Okay, given this, and the idea that you only end up in Hell (=separation from God) when you have chosen, with full awareness, to go there, and that God will never stop trying to get you to love him, does this seem sufficiently just to meet your objections? (Remember that in the universe of discourse for this argument, you’re accepting the Christian God and His world structure as basic hypotheses; although we’re supposed to be discussing what would prove His existence, this is specifically geared at the question, “Even assuming He exists, how can you say He’s just?”) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/14 "2000-08-20T20:14:02Z")
> [@](#): > > [If], somehow, [[sup][/sup]I] were to see [God] [I’d] have to conclude [I[sup][/sup]] was hallucinating. It seems that atheists are painted by as broad a brush as theists. [… those not interested, stop reading here …] I believe it was Ben who was incredulous when I suggested that some atheists might react to a vision of God the way DixieChiq says he or she would. I was a _very_ hard atheist, very anti-Christian. I, too, believed that Christianity was unreasonable. That got me to thinking, how on earth did I ever come to believe as I do? I’ve told the story before of seeing, “Before Abraham was, I am,” and having a sudden rush that just flew all over me. But as I think of it now, I suppose it was at that time that I first truly comprehended the eternal nature of Love. The funny thing is that it was just in an instant that I saw everything in a whole new way. Bang. It’s like, one moment I have X mindest, and the next, Y. Whereas before, I thought much like DixieChiq, suddenly I thought like Libertarian. Whereas before, God’s nonexistence was patently obvious to me, now His existence is so obvious that it is like we are sitting together in a meadow, and I say, “Wow! Feel that wonderful breeze!” and you go, “What breeze?” I would like to hear from the hard atheists and soft atheists alike. What, in your opinion, happened to me? Was there a brain burp? Some sort of epileptic seizure? A delusional moment that sort of stuck? Or what? Do I seem to you to have suspended reason, as DixieChiq asserts is required for me to believe as I do? ---
**Author:** ![dixiechiq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@dixiechiq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dixiechiq)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/15 "2000-08-20T21:05:14Z")
call me a “hard atheist” if you wish… 🙂 as for religious experience, i think i’ve had them. sudden intense moments of tranquility, oneness with the world, inner peace, etc etc. but they have not lead me to suddenly believe that something had to have created it all. what i think this was for me, and presumably for you, i’ve heard called a “peak moment”. this is the only experience i’ve had that seems to compare to others’ religious experiences. with appologies libertarian, you [and any reasoning theists] appear to have suspended reason to me in regards to the existence of a god[s]. ps: she ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/16 "2000-08-20T21:43:24Z")
Before I continue responding to posts, let me respond to slythe’s complaint. What would be easier to read, one post per response, or lengthy responses with headings? Or do you have another idea? Okay, I’m now continuing where I left off. \*Middle of Page 4 of the Original Post[/i\>] **Mr Response to Dr. Lao** Regarding my attempt at prophesy you said: > [@](#): > > For prophesy to appear accurate, some credulity is required on the part of the one be prophesied about. This will likely be found in a higher precentage among believers. That is a very good point. Truthfully, I was inspired by hearing stories over the years of people with great faith who were able to accurately prophesy to nonbelievers and cause them to give Christianity a second look. I guess I have some more growin’ in the faith to do ;). Regarding prophesy you said: > [@](#): > > would like to know how this is supposed to work. It _is_ an interesting topic but I don’t want to hijack my own thread! Maybe I’ll post a topic on it at some point. In the meantime, if you want to study it a little, check out 1st Corinthians chapter 14. It’s a good place to start. > [@](#): > > I mean before you came to Christ you had been ‘out of prayer’ for a long, long time. If this affects how well you hear the lord, how can you be sure you heard his intial call-up correctly? I didn’t hear the Lord’s voice before coming to Him. Someone explained the gospel to me and I received it, and _then_ I began hearing His voice over time. I think that seems to be the pattern with most people. Jesus said that “_My_ sheep hear my voice”, not everyone. There are exceptions though (most notably the apostle Paul). Regarding possibilities when I think I’m hearing God, you said: > [@](#): > > I don’t want to offend you, but I would say that 1(a) is the most likely explanation everytime you ‘hear God’. But that is just an atheist’s perspective. You didn’t offend me! I figured that’s the atheist perspective. For those who forgot, 1(a) was that it was created in my mind and I sincerely thought I’d heard God. I _used_ to believe that anytime I missed God, that I had just _thought_ I’d heard God and missed it. That is still very possible of course, but I’ve now come to believe that God is _always_ wanting to speak to me, and that many times if I’m not in tune with the Holy Spirit I will not hear what He is saying clearly. Regarding my prophesy story you said: > [@](#): > > The old friend of a friend routine. Sorry if I sound skeptical, but this story real doesn’t offer much in the way of evidence. There are millions of ways prophesies of this sort can be faked. Well, I mainly told the story to show how prophesy can occasionally be missed, not really to convince everyone of it’s accuracy. But see my next point … I talked about accurate prophets and you said: > [@](#): > > If this is really a supportable claim, FoG, I suggest you check out [http://www.randi.org](http://www.randi.org) . Your prophetic minister friends could be in for a million dollars plus a lot of esteem and aclaim from other BA xtians across the world. One line from this website I’d like to highlight: > [@](#): > > Applicants, some of whom have been scientists and healthcare practitioners, have included psychics, dowsers, perpetual motion machine inventors and many more Notice, no born again Christians (at least none listed). I doubt there ever will be any that go to him. I sure wouldn’t. Why? Because in my humble opinion this cheapens the whole point. It’s not about “proving God” or putting on a “magic show” from heaven. It’s about God showing you the needs of people and Him meeting those needs through you. Regarding the Psychic Friends Network you said: > [@](#): > > Please, FoG, you can’t seriously believe this, can you?Those commercials are dramatizations of supposedly actual calls. Oh I don’t believe the commericals at all, and I honestly don’t know _specifically_ about the PFN. I’d guess you’re probably right about them, that it’s all just fake. _But_ I would say this: just because there are phonies out there doesn’t mean there aren’t real ones as well. There is a real occult. The dark side of supernatural power is just as real as the light side. **My response to Satan** I said that “an imaginary person would not have an actual impact on my life the way God has had on mine” and you responded: > [@](#): > > Maybe one did! There are people who are quite delusional about other people, entities and what have you, and they can have quite a profound effect on the people who are delusional. Is the effect _positive_? Is the effect that ungodly attitudes and actions are transformed over the course of several years into Godly attitudes and actions? > [@](#): > > I also asked what the difference is between the person who is religious and swears God talks to them, the person who says that God told them to kill, the person who has friends that nobody else can see but ho are able to function in society, and the person who is always talking to various entities that are unable to be proven that they exist? All righty then, I love a good challenge! I’ll take you literally. Let’s go over each one: 1. The person who is religious and swears God talks to them: has a personal relationship with an actual, living, breathing entity called God. 2. The person who says God told them to kill: more than likely has opened themselves up to demonic influence of some sort or another. One of satan’s favorite games is to plant evil thoughts in these people and then have them blame God for those thoughts. 3. The person who has friends that nobody else can see but who are able to function in society: could either be an overactive imagination, but more likely, again, some form of occult involvement. As one example, the New Age movement teaches something about everyone needing to have a spirit guide. I believe many people do indeed have real entities that _they_ call spirit guides. I would call them demons who are good at deception. 4. The person who is always talking to various entities that are unable to be proven that they exist: see 2 and 3. Satan I’d like to ask you to do something in response. Rather than the usual atheist response to this kinda stuff that mocks the notion of satan and demons, how about seriously considering what I said? If satan is real and you were satan, why wouldn’t you try to screw with people’s heads like this? **My response to Lucky** > [@](#): > > I worked for 8 years with persons suffering from various severe mental illnesses. Imaginary beings most definately do impact people’s lives–in most profound ways. I will pose the same question I asked Satan … are they _positive_ changes that cause their life to be better than it was before? > [@](#): > > Secondly, FoG, what do you think people of other religions are doing? Do you think that they see no impact of their god in their lives, yet chose to follow he/she/it anyway just for the fun of it? Is Satan tricking these people, leading them to be kinder, more loving and all around better people so that in the end he can say “ha ha I fooled you!” (I can’t tell you how concerned I am that you’re going to say you agree with that). Well, I’m afraid your concern is _somewhat_ well founded (;)), but I wouldn’t say it exactly as you did. I would say Satan is tricking these people into believing that, on their own, they can be ‘good people’, or ‘godlike’, or ‘god’, or some variation thereof. Again I ask … if you were satan, wouldn’t you try to give people as many varieties of deceptions as you possibly could? **Seattime** , I will get to your post on my next attempt at catching up. I’m actually closer to catching up than it appears, since much of page 5 was discussion not directed at me. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/17 "2000-08-20T21:44:48Z")
First, I should have said “strong atheist”, not “hard atheist”. Sorry about that. I learned about strong and weak atheists here on this board, from a reference to [An Introduction to Atheism](http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html) Second, I don’t think I’ve suspended reason any more than you’ve suspended grammar. Reason is the _application_ of logic, and applications can produce various results. I love reason. I’ve taught classic deductive logic to computer programmers, and I hold it in very high regard as an epistemology, as the old-timers here can tell you. You and I begin with different axioms, based on our own subjective experience. For each of us, our consciousness is a closed set, and therefore we can posit only what we have come to know. You cannot experience mine, nor I yours. What I am saying is that, based on my experience, were I to assert that there is no God, I would be unreasonable. You understand, of course, that different axioms will lead to different conclusions. If you posit that parallel lines do not intersect, then you will be led to a flat plane. But if you posit the opposite, that parallel lines _do_ intersect, then you will be led to a curved plane. My axioms lead me to God. Yours lead you to something else. That does not make me unreasonable. There is a difference between the change in heart that I experienced and the sort of “religious experience” you mention. I did not experience a “peak”. I still see things as I did that first day of my new life. **My _comprehension_ changed**. My old comprehension is like a foggy dream. I am so far removed from it that I had to ask the atheists here to explain their mindset to me. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/18 "2000-08-20T21:48:04Z")
**DixieChiq** The above post is in response to yours. I didn’t know that Phaedrus was posting at the same time I was. ---
**Author:** ![dixiechiq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@dixiechiq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dixiechiq)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/19 "2000-08-20T22:11:57Z")
when something other than reason is used to attain knowledge, then one has suspended reason. if you can use reason to show the existence of god, then i would be happy to hear about. [though admittedly rather suprised and red-faced.] your axioms may lead you to believe in god, but if you carry reasoning through based on those very axioms, i expect you would be lead to a contradiction, thereby disproving one or more of your assumptions. i can’t cite, since i don’t know what your axioms are. are you willing to admit that your belief in god is not based on reason?? i thought belief in god was based upon faith, which is by definition a suspension of reason. ---
**Author:** ![lambda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5f9b8f/32.png) [@lambda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lambda)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/20 "2000-08-20T22:23:33Z")
Libertarian, I know you wanted opinions from atheists, but I hope I qualify, since I was one myself. I was as strong an atheist as they make them. And what happened to you, happened to me too, in the exact same way that you described. All it took was one second. I just realized it was true. At the time, I was pursuing with all my mind, heart, and soul, something that was in direct contradiction with God. I clearly remember how I was sitting on the bench waiting for the subway, realizing that I couldn’t have it both ways. _It was not convenient_. I don’t define what I experienced then as a “religious” experience. Actually, the closest thing I could compare it to is the kind of illumination I had felt many times before, and I still get these days, whenever I understand a mathematical result. \* Now I see. It makes sense. \* For me, it never involves a suspension of reason. Quite the contrary. Because ever since that one second, Christianity has had an incredible predictive and explicative power with regard to the one thing I know best in this world: myself. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005.md?page=2)