# What Would It Take to Prove God's Existence to You? Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005 "2000-08-20T00:47:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/121 "2000-08-25T16:41:57Z")
Nice posts, all!! First, an open message to Satan. Yes, I knew very well you weren’t referring to me. I guess I was anticipating Freyr’s comment to lift up one’s voice – I think it needed to be said that a vibrant Christianity (immodest, but yeah, it’s a key point of my life) does not have to lead to the fogged-in mindset (no pun intended) that seems to exude from the outspoken conservative-Christian group. (Note that Spoke- would have us understand that it is not monolithic, and has a lot of internal disagreement as well. But the general set of assumptions seems to be very much held in common.) And more than a few of this group walk the walk as well as talking the talk. Just this morning I got a message from a mutual online friend at the Pizza place, knowing that I knew you “well” and urging me to be your friend and pray for you. She wasn’t asking for witnessing, just for standing by you and asking God to work for your wellbeing. Just because she cares about you as a person. She didn’t have to ask. But, yeah, the people who would put Falcon down (and I’ve lurked in a couple of threads where she’s gotten some really bad vibes from people) outnumber the good ones. And that’s sad. The funny thing is, when someone speaks out for social justice, they get called heretics and worse. There are few things clearer to me than the sort of life and mindset that Jesus of Nazareth asked of his followers. And I think that the atheists here would agree with that – it doesn’t take some supernatural intervention to read the words he spoke and have them make sense. But it seems to be beyond the skills of a lot of conservative Christians. I wish Zion had some time to post here. More than anyone else, he’s “been there, done that” and found his mind opened to new perspectives. I think he’d add a lot to this discussion. Hey, if a President proposes a balanced budget and new initiatives that benefit some industry, alleviate unemployment, improve some aspect of our national life, and better the environment all at the same time, it gets coverage on page 16 (Republican or Democrat). If he gets caught having nookie with his assistant or saying something off the top of his head that turns out to be not accurate, that’s **news** , brother. Same thing: if somebody says Jesus said to feed the poor and not judge people, it might make the religion page on a poor news day. But Fred Phelps or Pat Robertson is **always** good copy. Things like this board, where one’s true views can be expressed untrammelled by their “newsworthiness” or controversy, are useful ways to “raise one’s voice.” The brief letter to the editor is another – it requires pithiness and concision in expression, but can be done, even for somebody as longwinded as me. Are there media that would enable mass circulation of this viewpoint more effectively? Suggestions are welcomed… -=-=-=-=- Ura Maru, welcome back. Your thoughts are welcomed. But remember that “the Tao that is is not the Tao that can be spoken…” 🙂 My Pinyin “are seldom” so I cannot speak with any certainty, but in Wade-Giles they are Lao-Tse and Sun Tsu, with IIRC an umlaut on the U in Tsu. Two distinct morphemes. I wonder if Tao Jones (an above-average industrious poster) could be any help. It’s strange you’d bring up Clarke’s Third Law, because I feel that the typical “miracle story” is quite often something that relates to that. If advanced science finds that substances derived from the clay minerals and from human saliva react to produce a benign remover of cataracts, I will not be surprised. And I’ll simply point out that the technique was used by one practitioner two millennia ago. And, IMHO, _it makes it no less a miracle._ One point that seems to have escaped everybody is that for the Gospel writers and Jesus as they picture him, “miracle” is a “why” word, not a “how” word. The question of “was it a ‘true’ miracle or something explainable by science?” is akin in my mind to “is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” – both miss the point of _God intervening through man to heal the ills of man._ And, like John Newton and the guy in the parable I’ve alluded to, I don’t much care whether it happened on the Sabbath, I don’t much care whether Jesus used magic or an eye surgeon, what matters is that I was blind and now I see. I should add that I’m not putting down finding out _how_; a technique that works should be repeated, of course, all other things being equal. And understanding how it works leads to other related techniques. However, the question of proof/disproof of a supposed miracle is by the boards. Identifying what happened is useful, and the province of the scientific researcher; why it happened in a metaphysical sense is the province of the religious scholar. It sounds like another non-overlapping magisteria item. I think a comparative religion thread or threads (it might need a more focused question to get it going, and spin off related threads as it went) would be excellent. I suggested as much to Dal Timgar, who was more inclined to find any religion laughable – quite possibly the only time online when pagans and fundamentalists were insulted in the same paragraph! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/122 "2000-08-25T16:44:32Z")
[quiet, abashed voice] Okay, Tris. You did it again. [/quiet, abashed voice] ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/123 "2000-08-26T02:13:39Z")
Hello once again. I’ve got some time tonite and I’m going to dive right in with slythe’s post and continue from there: One-Fourth of the way down Page 1 **My response to Slythe** You said: > [@](#): > > Direct question to FoG: What justification can be made for an infinitely long and infinitely painful punishment? I can think of no “sin” that could justify it. It could not possibly be for the purpose of rehabilitation, so there is no release. It cannot be for learning a lesson, since any lesson learned cannot possibly be applied. It cannot be for teaching others not to sin, since the only ones with direct evidence are already there. It cannot be said that we “choose” to go to hell, since this is the same as my holding a gun to your head and asking you to either “choose” to give me your wallet, or die. > > Your god created Hell. > Your god set the terms for punishment. > Your god is giving us the false choice of believing(without clear evidence of what to believe, I might add) or being punished forever. > > Can you make any sense of this? There is one major thing being misunderstood here, and that’s the nature of the “choice” issue. Let’s tackle that first. God lays before each person a choice: choose to love and serve Me and live with Me forever … or choose not to. Let’s suppose I choose to serve and love God. The natural _result_ of this choice is a more fulfilling life on earth and eternal bliss with God. That’s the _natural_ _result_ of a life spent with God. Let’s suppose I choose to not serve and love God. The natural _result_ of this choice is a more miserable life on earth and eternal misery without God. That’s the _natural_ _result_ of a life spent without God. So God is not dangling this awful punishment in front of your face and saying “Serve me or die”. Hell is merely a natural end result / extension of one of the choices you can make. So if that’s the choice you want to make, He’s not going to stop you. To call it a “false choice” once again blames God for our problems. It’s a very real and true choice. And to be honest, you can argue day in and day out about why God doesn’t give you a choice past your death and so forth and so on … but those are totally moot points because _you_ are alive right now and reading this and _you_ have a choice here and now that you can make. In fact, everyone does. Everyone on earth throughout history has had _ample_ opportunity to find out about God. As we discussed earlier, sure there are people for whom it might be more _difficult_ than others, but it can still be done. Anyone who is willing to give their whole heart to finding God and **not give up** til’ He is found, I truly believe will find God. Let me illustrate the true “choice” issue: it is _not_ “holding a gun to your head and asking you to either _choose_ to give me your wallet, or die” like you said. It is more akin to rafting down a river and being warned that if you go one way you’ll end up in a river full of rocks, waterfalls, and miserable pitfalls; and being told that going the other way leads to clear waters with no obsticles. Not a perfect illustration but it makes the point. If you _choose_ to go the wrong way, it’s your choice! And you have to live with the consequences. In the holdup illustration you’re being forced. In real life, as in the rafting illustration, you have a choice. As for some of your other points: no it’s not for rehab or anything else … it’s just the natural end result of what happens to you if you continue in a perpetual state of not knowing God personally. As for why it’s eternal, here’s an interesting theory. We are always clamoring for God to “end all the hatred, wars, evil, etc etc in the world today”. Well … that’s exactly what He’s going to do one day. But how can God create an effective eternity of perfection and joy if there are still evil and sinful people around to screw it up? Eternity in hell for those who chose to reject God also preserves the purity of the new heaven and new earth. Also … it is the ultimate crime. You choose to turn your back on your Creator, the one who loved you enough to die for you, you spat on His sacrifice and turned your back on Him … truthfully it’s incredible mercy that God gives us 60 - 80 years on earth to decide. We don’t even deserve _that_! No, God is more than just enough. As usual, we like to blame Him for everything but it’s _our_ mess. So slythe, I realize that’s probably not what you wanted to hear but it is an honest answer. I hope it gave you something to ponder. By the way, as an aside, I thought **Polycarp’s** analysis of your question was brilliant and made some additional points that I didn’t want to duplicate. I hope you go back and re-read it as well. **My response to dixiechiq** I realize this was directed at someone else, but I’d like to chime in: > [@](#): > > are you willing to admit that your belief in god is not based on reason?? i thought belief in god was based upon faith, which is by definition a suspension of reason. That’s a popular misconception about faith. Faith and reason are actually inherently linked. The _root_ of my faith, for example, is that it just makes good sense that the God who created me and this whole universe can manage and run my life better than I can, therefore I submit myself to Him. It further makes sense that _He_ knows what He’s talking about in other matters too. The challenge of faith is in _really_ believing and trusting that God is in fact right in different areas. You may not always see the logic of what God is saying initially, but if you do the sensible thing and trust Him anyway and obey Him, over time the logic of it becomes more and more obvious. **My response to Dr. J** Regarding the Randi challenge: > [@](#): > > I disagree totally. It would absolutely be in the best interests of these people to take the RC. For one thing, there’s the money–a million bucks could go a long way toward good Christian charity. > > There’s also the legitimacy it would lend. If one of these guys passed the RC, it would be very difficult for all those heathen skeptics to doubt, wouldn’t it? I know that you didn’t at all intend this, and it’s not directed at you personally, but the very notion of receiving money in exchange for God demonstrating His supernatural power is inherently repulsive to me. I can’t even fully explain why, but I think part of it is that God can’t be “bought”. “Here God, I’ll give you lots of _money_ if you’ll do _this_”. No. That sounds suspiciously like Satan’s temptation of Jesus in the desert, to which He said “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test”. And part of it also is … God doesn’t need to prove Himself. He’s not desperate. If someone wants to see God demonstrate His power, they don’t need the media or Randi or anyone to see it. Again, if someone seeks God long enough and **doesn’t give up** , I believe they will find God. The more I think about it, I truly believe God hides these things from the general public on purpose. This is _love_ we’re talking about here folks and God is not going to be _easy_. Ie, He’s not going to stand out in the street and say “Here I am! Please believe in Me! Please, oh please!” Can you imagine, guys, if a woman was pursuing you and was slobbering over you constantly all day long, putting herself in your path? Or women, imagine a creepy guy constantly popping up throughout your day begging you to love him. We would be turned off and would not _value_ the person. God requires some initiation on our part. I honestly think this is why Jesus said: > [@](#): > > At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.” (Mt 11:25-26) Before you get hung up on God hiding things, notice that He is also _revealing_ things! Who does He reveal them to? Those who have met His requirement, that we must come to Him like a child. To be continued, more to come … ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/124 "2000-08-26T02:53:03Z")
Over halfway down page 1 **My response to Lucky** > [@](#): > > You asked if mentally ill people who see/hear imaginagy beings are influenced by them in a posiyive or negative way. I really can’t answer that as becasue I had no opportunity to see these people before they became ill. My point is … _regardless_ of what their life was like before, did this mental illness _improve_ their life? My point is, the changes _God_ makes in your life are positive. > [@](#): > > I find your answer to be VERY arrogant. First, who said anything about these peole believing that they have become better ‘on their own’? These people are as convinced as you are that their GOD is changing their life. Ah, that’s what comes from answering too many posts too quickly. I could have worded my response better, I’m sure. Let me just summarize this way: the notion that is very popular that “there are many roads that lead to God, and whether you find God through Buddha, Jesus, or Krishna doesn’t matter” is false. There is _only_ _one_ road to God, and that is through the person of Jesus Christ. I realize that you don’t believe this, but consider something for a moment. How do other religions reconcile God’s goodness, mercy, and holiness with His justice? I don’t personally know of a religion that doesn’t believe God doesn’t have these traits (if someone does, I would genuinely like to know). I asked this to a roomful of Muslims in the summer of 1994 and they had no answer, because their religion can’t answer it. The _only_ religion I know of that explains how a sinful man can know a holy, perfect God is Christianity. I _realize_ it sounds arrogant, and I don’t mean for it to, but think about this too: if what I’m saying is _correct_, wouldn’t it be wrong to state it as anything less than a fact, even if that offends people? I don’t expect people to believe it because I say it, but I don’t want to lie either. As for what other religions believe … I know one man who has researched many world religions who concluded that there are essentially two religions in the earth today: Christianity and “everything else”. The “everything else” religion assumes or aims people toward the notion that man is basically good or can become good or Godlike, or some variation on that theme. Just something to consider. **My response to micilin** Hi! Welcome to the boards. You said: > [@](#): > > What it would take to prove God’s (the Christian God’s) existence to me? It would be take Christianity (the Bible, for the sake of argument) to have predictive and explicative power with regard to everything in this world, and not just me. For me, it has neither. Interesting post! I read your elaboration on your point but didn’t want to quote it all here due to space, but I didn’t totally follow your main point. It _seems_ to me (correct me if I’m wrong) that you are saying that if God were real, no one would have ever come to think of certain Bible stories as metaphorical, Science would have to back up the Bible, anyone who read the Bible would have better understanding of the universe, and there wouldn’t be a gap between science and religion. Well here’s two things to consider (assuming I’m following what you’re saying): first, why would _everyone_ have to respond the same way to prove God to you? What other people besides God do is their choice. Second, have you considered the possibility of a great deceiver in the universe as well that tries to lead people astray? **My response to GLWasteful** > [@](#): > > As far as atheists being upset when the Bible gets quoted (And which Bible would that be, BTW?), I’ve only seen fits thrown when it’s used as a justification to believe in the Bible. Circular reasoning, and all like that. Well I’ve seen people on this board go into huge fits just when I quote the Bible to make a point of any kind. **My response to further** Regarding God I said: > [@](#): > > how do you know it doesn’t affect you one way or the other if you’ve never experienced it? You responded: > [@](#): > > If something is affecting me and I am unaware of it and there are no consequences I can observe, exactly how is it affecting me? Just because you can’t observe the consequences doesn’t mean there aren’t any. As for your rather scary prayer … I would refer you to my most recent post above this one and what I said about the Randi challenge. In particular, the quote from Jesus. **My response to stuffinb** Regarding why faith didn’t “work” for you: > [@](#): > > I’ve been trying unsuccesfully to come up with a way to explain this to you other than the way I did. The best I can come up with is the house of cards analogy. Basically my faith was believing what everyone else said was correct. My family and friends, the bible, my pastor. It didn’t stand up to my personal scrutiny, and like a house of cards was easily blown down. > > Well not easily but you get the idea. I was in a crisis, everything that I believed instead of becoming stronger through study, got weaker. Prayer became talking to myself. Ministries I performed as part of my realtionship woth G-d seemed more for personal satisfaction than the edification of G-d. Faith didn’t work because it no longer had grounds. First of all, please accept my apologies if you’ve explained before. In this myriad of posts I’m sure I’ve asked and you responded once before and I just forgot. Hard to keep up with all this stuff ya know! I see one of two possibilities here. One is that you might have gone through a spiritual “dry spell”, but took it to mean that God had turned off communication forever. Just as something to think about: I’ve never met a strong born-again Christian who did _not_ go through a dry spell like this at one point or another during their walks with Christ. It’s a time when you have no spiritual _feelings_ and you have to go on raw faith. It’s a major test and can be hard. The other possibility, and perhaps a more likely one, is that the person/people who led you to Christ didn’t lay a proper spiritual foundation with you. The house of cards thing you said is almost identical to Jesus’ “house built on the rock and the sand” illustration. If the foundations are weak, when the storms come, it will come crashing down. So my food for thought question is this … even though you had this rather awful experience, does that mean the truth is not out there somewhere? Is it not possible that you had an “almost-correct-but-not-quite-there” counterfeit version of Christianity and not the real deal? This brings up an interesting point. To me the most dangerous cult in all the world is “almost-Christianity”. The most dangerous lie is the one that has the most amount of truth mixed into it. Well, I’ve reached near the end of page 1 and another brilliant response from Dr. Lao. I’ll have to stop here and try to continue later this weekend. Later all :). PS … just decided that I absolutely don’t want to wait to respond to Falcon’s recent post, so I’ll post my response to it next. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/125 "2000-08-26T03:04:28Z")
I’m breaking my usual “go in order” routine to respond to this because I just thought it was very important: Falcon said, regarding Christians who verbally abused her: > [@](#): > > Now this interests me. And I’ll be brutally honest and tell you why. The people who attacked me are Christians. They believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Hence, they’re Christians. They may not ACT like it, but they are. My amusement/interest comes from this: it seems to me based on the posts I’ve seen from you that you would be this type. Are you saying that even if I converted back to being Christian, and didn’t give up my beliefs on social issues such as abortion, I’d still make it to heaven? If that’s what you’re saying, then I misjudged you. And I’m pleasantly surprised to see it. Falcon, you don’t have to change one single solitary thing about yourself or your beliefs to come to Christ. The only thing you have to do, which is admittedly scary if you’ve been abused by people in your life, is to step off the cliff of trust and place your life in God’s hands, trusting Him to guide you throughout your life. You submit your life to Him, but that’s it. You don’t have to suddenly become pro-life, etc etc to come to Christ or even after you come to Christ. I wish you lived in my area so I could invite you to a Bible Study and you could experience the love of Godly, accepting Christians. I would like to personally apologize on behalf of Christianity and Christians everywhere for the way you were treated by Christians. That is _not_ how Jesus would treat you, nor truly Godly believers in Christ. Believers in Christ will love and accept you as you are regardless of your beliefs or lifestyle. > [@](#): > > I basically cut my arms enough to scar, but not enough to be a serious attempt. In pysch terms, it’s called self-injury, or SI. And if God wanted to comfort me, he did a DAMN poor job of it. I sat in my room BEGGING him to help me. To show me something. ANYTHING. It’s like Satan (the poster) said, I just wanted him to turn on the light. And there was nothing. For 5 years of my life, when I was dying inside, and begging your God for help, there was nothing. And THAT is why I say he was not open to me. Wow. My heart literally just melts for you the more I read about your situation. I can’t explain why you didn’t feel God, but all I can tell you, regardless of “feelings”, is that God deeply, deeply loves and accepts you Falcon. He _soo_ much wants to have a relationship with you to help you through what you’re going through. You wouldn’t have to go through a single moment of it alone ever again. God would always be right by your side. I hope you will still be open to Him. G’night again all. ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/126 "2000-08-26T20:22:33Z")
FriendOfGod: > [@](#): > > on the flip side, a nonbeliever may start off with a bang. They can do whatever they want to do! ~~sigh~~ Again, unbelievers are not necessarily amoral. In many cases, nonbelievers are _more_ moral than believers, because we know there is no one to forgive us of our crimes. > [@](#): > > (regarding voids) Some don’t fully realize it’s there until the very end of their life, when they realize all the successes they’ve piled up, all the money they’ve made, all the people they’ve helped … it was all for nothing. Even if you’re right, I fail to see how helping people could ever be “all for nothing”. I don’t help people because I expect a reward. I don’t see how a god could favor me if I believed in him merely because I sought a reward or wished to avoid a punishment. > [@](#): > > I basically explained why Christianity makes sense. > Here’s the quick’n’easy summary version: > > 1. We are all profoundly sinful. > 2. God is profoundly loving but also profoundly just. He doesn’t want to punish us for our sins, but He has to because He’s just and we are guilty. > 3. God’s solution is to send His Son to live a perfect life and be a perfect substitutionary sacrifice for us. Jesus took the punishment we so richly deserved so that anyone who received Him could have fellowship with God restored again. This does not in any way explain why Christianity makes sense. This is your opinion, with nothing concrete to back it up. This is my opinion: 1. We are human beings. Since humans are physically weak, we must rely on other humans to survive. Thus, we form communities, or tribes. 2. To strenghten our tribal bonds and ensure the survival of our children, we have evolved emotions such as love, lust (how could the species continue without lust?), jealousy, and altruism. A shared set of beliefs and rituals- religion- is merely a part of our tribal bond. 3. To protect our tribe from competing tribes, we’ve evolved such emotions as greed, hatred, and bigotry. 4. Humans must adapt to a huge variety of environments; our cultures are adaptations to specific circumstances. Adaptability, the ability to learn and mold ourselves to be compatible with our circumstances, is the only trait that allows us to thrive. Humans are not “bad”, nor are we “good”, though each culture has a shared concept of what is acceptable and what is not, depending on circumstances. We adapt, we work together, we have conflicts with each other, we form bonds with each other, and we die. If you can’t tolerate the concept of death, then you must adopt a religion to promise you there’s something else after this painful, pathetic existence. If you need to feel loved, you may feel the need to believe in a higher power that personally cares about you. If you can’t stand injustice, you may need to believe in a god that will even the score when all this is through; he’ll make sure everyone gets what they deserve in the end. I knew a girl in high school who couldn’t bear the thought that unicorns didn’t exist somewhere, somehow. Her need to believe was so strong that she was absolutely certain unicorns existed. (No, her name was not Gaudere.) _Wishing doesn’t make it so._ ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/127 "2000-08-26T23:51:35Z")
Well I have a little more time to catch up so let’s see how far I can get … Bottom of Page 1 **My response to Dr. Lao** > [@](#): > > why doesn’t everybody get a chance to become pure on their own time? Why do we have a finite time on this Earth in which to decide? Presumably, people who are now bound for heaven were once bound for hell. These people changed, and since God shouldn’t play favorites, everybody has the ability to change. So why doesn’t he give us the time to change if we want to. God shouldn’t care, he is infinite and waiting for millions of years shouldn’t bother him. So why does he make life so short? He should make it so people live as long as they want until they become pure within God’s eyes by turning to Jesus Christ. First of all, in saying “a chance to become pure on their own time”, I assume you are talking about what you said in your last sentence: “…until they become pure **within God’s eyes** by turning to Jesus Christ.” To answer your question: first, it seems you are assuming that everyone, or at least _more_ people than do, would turn to Christ in your scenario. I don’t believe this is correct. God gives everyone _ample_ opportunity to come to him during their lifetime. If they choose not to, what difference will a few more hundred or thousand years make? To me, God is _INCREDIBLY_ patient and merciful. Decades of time is plenty and He gives ample opportunities to all. For Him to put up with constant rebellion and even hatred and _still_ reach out to people is amazing. Yes, I think people can choose to turn from God and then turn back to Him later in life, or even vice versa. But I think there is a “point of no return” that everyone gets to eventually in which they are so set in stone that they will not be moved. Frightening, I know (and by the way, anyone reading this who’s _concerned_ that they are “too far gone” probably _aren’t_. Those who are too far gone wouldn’t care at all). Only God knows when that is. But the point is, why should He prolong life and delay the inevitable judgment or reward? There is another reason God might shorten life: _MERCY_. To those who _do_ submit to Him, there is an ache to get away from this world and get on to heaven to be with Him. Just another interesting possibility. > [@](#): > > Well…if God weren’t pure then you wouldn’t have much of a choice in the matter. If you believed in him you would have to serve him, impure and imperfect he may be. I think you were trying to say that an impure God doesn’t make sense since he makes the rules for purity. An impure God would imply that there was a higher standard of purity we could judge God by. To be honest, I don’t believe I would serve God if He were not a good God. I don’t picture God sitting down and making a list of rules that constitute purity, either. Remember, we are created in His image. Thoughts we think that are pure are rooted in thoughts that God thinks that are pure. If we want to be treated nicely and fairly by people, it’s probable that at some point in time God said, “You know, it makes sense that people should treat each other nicely and fairly.” God is the essence of common sense and logic. I don’t believe He arbitrarily decided “Hmmmm… porno movies, bad … ice cream sundaes, good …” etc. He just does what makes good sense. **Re: Mankind’s Sinfulness** Let’s play dueling quotes. First I said: > [@](#): > > God _didn’t_ create inherently sinful creatures. Stop and think about it … _why_ would God do that? You resonded: > [@](#): > > I agree! It doesn’t make sense. That’s why I wanted you explain mankind’s apparently sinful nature. I also said: > [@](#): > > We sin dozens of times every day and don’t even realize it half the time. and you responded: > [@](#): > > The point of this quote is the definition of “we”. I think it appropriate to say that “we” can include everyone in the history of the world. > > It is all well and good to claim that there is an option to be sin free, but if no one has taken it, that seems like it wasn’t there in the first place. Yes, “we” includes everyone. And the _option_ to be sin free _IS_ very much available. The curse of the sin of Adam and Eve simply means that no one can be _successful_ at obtaining that perfection. In other words, you have free will to _try_, but you won’t succeed. But again, this isn’t _God’s_ fault, nor was it God’s plan. He never wanted it to be this way! What He did was jump into the picture to _fix_ this mess! This may sound silly, but your next paragraph got me so excited I was hyperventilating! You said: > [@](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong (but I don’t think I am, I’ve learned a lot about Christen philosophy the past few days) we let God down with our sinning so he sacrificed Jesus so that we could be made pure again by believing in him. However, if we truely are sinnful in nature, then we never let God down because we never had the choice of being sin free. So there was no free will. And if the mistake of Adam and Eve fundimentally change people to make us sinful, why doesn’t God change us back and give us the chance to make the original choice again. I think the world would be a lot better place if God removed original sin. If he has the power to remove sin, he should do it. I think that would be a better choice than creating the whole Jesus situation. Dr. Lao! I was literally shouting joyfully at my monitor as I read this! I was saying, “Yes!! Exactly! You’ve got it!!” But yet, you don’t realize you’ve got it! Let me explain. You said, “Why doesn’t God change us back and give us the chance to make the original choice again?” HE DID! You said, “I think the world would be a lot better place if God removed original sin.” HE HAS! “If he has the power to remove sin, he should do it.” HE DID! Here’s the kicker: “I think that would be a better choice than creating the whole Jesus situation.” Dr. Lao, the whole “Jesus situation” is what makes the things you just described _AVAILABLE_!! Like I said I was laughing with joy! You described a great solution to the problem, and it’s _EXACTLY_ the same solution God proposed and accomplished! And I hope you aren’t offended, but I had to laugh (not derisively, but at the irony) as you said it would be better than the whole Jesus thing when _He_ is the very route to the things you want! One of the best description of salvation that I’ve ever heard is “It’s the Garden of Eden **in reverse**!” The curse of sin causes our hearts to be bent towards sin. The salvation of Christ causes our hearts to be _reborn_ – this is where the famous phrase “born again” comes from. We are literally transformed on the inside and God changes our direction! _NOW_ we _want_ to aim toward Godliness again, just like in the Garden of Eden! To clarify, it doesn’t mean we suddenly never sin again, it means the _direction_ of our heart has changed. It means we have new _power_ to walk in Godliness available to us! We still have to _choose_ to access it, but at least it’s available! There _is_ one other point in your paragraph above I need to comment on. You said “we let God down with our sinning so he sacrificed Jesus so that we could be made pure again by believing in him”. Very _close_, but it’s not really that we “let God down”. It’s that we are imperfect and sinful and therefore cannot enter into God’s presence. The blood of Jesus solves this problem by allowing us into His presence with the filter of Jesus blood to protect us. So the point is, yeah we’re in a mess because of original sin, but that’s why God was merciful enough to provide a _solution_ to the mess! On to the healing topic, you clarified what you meant by “repeatable”: > [@](#): > > We must be able to take this person and give him a healing to preform. The need for the healing must be legitamite (he says he can heal a broken leg, the leg must be confirmed to be before broken). The heal must be conclusive (the leg must be confirmed to be healed afterward). Then he must be able to do it again with another group of researchers who are attempting to duplicate the effect observed in the first experiment. Wow, well I hate to say this but I don’t know anyone that would do all that for one reason: God’s healing power can’t be analyzed like a science experiment type of thing! In other words, say I’m a faith healer, I can’t say to you, “At 4 PM today I’ll heal a guy with a broken leg, then at 6 PM I’ll do it again. Bring your analysts.” Why? Because you never know when and how God will move! How can you know in advance if God is going to want to heal someone with a broken leg at 4 PM and 6 PM today? Having said that, something _similar_ to what you want to see is possible and reasonable, however. Again, the best way to see this is to hang out with Christians over a period of months so you can get to know them. Over time you’ll meet people with ailments and sicknesses, and you’ll be able to judge their credibility on a case by case basis. If they ever get healed in a meeting, you can ask them for the type of evidence you want (ie, show me your before and after healing charts). Regarding the fundraising stuff, you said: > [@](#): > > Yes, but not all of them had the last minute trouble then last minute help you described. You also said that they weren’t skilled in fundraising. I think commitment and motivation are the most important things in successful fundraising. People believing they are doing the work of God, whether or not he exists, excel in both those areas. Fair point up to a point. Sure there are personal skills and motivations involved, but God I truly believe God is mixed into it all as well. It’s a _partnership_. You do your part (ie, all you know to do) and God does the rest. > [@](#): > > I think you should take it upon yourself to document some of these cases. You suggested I go to church, I think maybe you should do some scienctific research. Look at something that appears unlikely to happen, but does happen everytime (or nearly so) when people trust in God and rarely happens when people don’t trust in him. Post your methodology and results and we can help you improve them to see if you have evidence of a real effect. I don’t expect a perfectly designed study right off the bat, but I’m sure the scienetists on this board could help you refine it. Ahhh! If only I’d known I’d be at this website during the past 20 years I would’ve kept better notes :(. I doubt anything I said would be considered even remotely scientific anyway. You can’t put God’s works in a laboratory. He just does what He does when people of faith are involved in the situation. Actually, having said that, I do have a few examples coming to mind off the top of my head … but of course, there’s no way I can prove any of this or give you specific stats. But here’s something to chew on at any rate: 1. In the early 80s a friend at my church did extensive research in our church on Christian families that were struggling financially. He found a 100% consistent pattern: those couples who did not tithe were the ones who _stayed_ in financial trouble year after year. Those who _did_ tithe would have troubles occasionally, but would receive counsel and get out of the trouble. This gives clear evidence of the financial curse you fall under when you don’t tithe, talked about in Malachi chapter 3. As an addendum to that, I almost forgot I have a personal testimony on this one, that just occurred this year! Ever since I was a child I have always tithed, simply because I was taught to do it and saw it in the Bible. It made sense, so I always did it. No big deal. I have also followed other financial principles from the Bible: for example, I’ve never been in debt (I do use a credit card but I pay it off monthly and never pay interest). I believe as a direct result of my obedience to God in these areas, I’ve always been very relaxed about money. I’ve always had enough, but never too much, and it’s just been something I’ve never had to think much about. God even dropped a wad of cash in my lap 1 1/2 years ago, and mere weeks later I had to buy a new car! I was able to pay for it in cash and stay out of debt. I believe God was honoring me for obeying Him. I know some of you will be skeptical, but that’s just how I see it. This seems off subject but it all ties together: earlier this year I began searching for a new church (brief aside: it was an amicable exit from my previous church and I felt God was calling me to switch to a new church – long story but that’s all you need to know for now). During the time I was searching, I decided I would keep tithing at my old church until I committed to going to a new one. Well, I kept intending to stop by my old church to drop my tithe check off, but one week, then two, then three, went by, and I kept forgetting or getting too busy. Then, all of a sudden, in mid-April, I was filling out my taxes and I realized I was in a _HUGE_ financial bind for the first time in my life. I had a tax bill that was twice as large as expected. My Visa bill was twice as large as expected. My savings was at it’s lowest point in a long time. And … it suddenly hit me … I was seven weeks behind on tithing. I remember when it hit me … call me crazy if you want … I actually _smiled_! Then I laughed!! It was entertaining to me even though I was in a serious situation! I was _watching_ the principles of God operate before my very eyes! For the _first_ time in my life I hadn’t tithed for an extended period of time … and for the _first_ time in my life, I was experiencing a financial crisis! Needless to say, as soon as I realized the root of the problem, I sent my tithe check off _first_ before doing anything else! It took me two months to dig out of the hole I got myself into, but I learned a valuable lesson. Don’t forget God’s principles! Needless to say, I’ve not missed a tithe since and don’t intend to again! That was longer than intended, but let’s move on to another example of God working consistantly. 1. The _MORE_ I think about it, the missions thing I already mentioned sticks out even more. It occurs to me that I’ve seen God help people raise money in _many_ different ministries at many different times. Back in the 80s, in a church where they _don’t_ believe God works miracles today, God was working miracles anyway! One story stands out in my mind. A female friend of mine was supposed to be going on a missions trip and needed a rather enormous sum of money. She raised a certain amount but still needed a specific large amount and was nowhere close to it. A man gave her a check for the exact amount she needed. Now, most people would think that this was God answering her prayer, but she felt uncomfortable receiving this money from this guy for some reason (I can’t recall why). So, believe it or not, she gave it _back_ to him, thanked him, and said she couldn’t take it. Within days, she obtained the _exact_ sum of money she needed a _SECOND_ time from a totally different source she felt comfortable with! That is one of my favorite stories of all time because it shows Godly character and God backing you up as well. 3. Countless _little_ things: praying for a job, money to fix a car, etc etc. I can point to dozens of cases where God came through for people. And please don’t misunderstand … God required these people to do their part. God _DOESNT_ respond if you sit back and expect Him to do everything. If you’re looking for a job, you have to create a resume and go look for one! But God “fills in the gaps” as it were, many, many times. Okay, this post is already too long but I hope I’ve given you some new things to chew on Dr. Lao. Have a good night! ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/128 "2000-08-27T00:43:46Z")
… well, I decided to keep going and do some “marathon” type posts to try to catch up! I’m going to zip through everyone’s posts and try to just give a sentence or two in response (at least I’ll _try_ to keep it to a sentence or two!) Here we go … Partly down page 2 **My response to Dr. Lao (again!)** > [@](#): > > I wanted to see if I could verify some of the stories FoG was talking about: examples of miraclous healing and prophecy. FoG is convinced these are everyday occurrences at Godly churches. Just to clarify … I’ve never been in a church where spectacular miracles happen every Sunday (although I’ll bet there are some overseas churches like that). However, I _have_ been in churches where they happen several times each year, either just in a regular service or during a guest speaker service. **My response to DoctorJ** I know this wasn’t directly directed at me, but I just had to comment on this quote: > [@](#): > > John 3:16 implies that those who do not believe in Jesus will not have everlasting life at all, which would make it hard to spend an eternity in Hell. The key word here is “LIFE”. Those who don’t give their hearts to Christ will suffer an eternal death. **My response to lambda** > [@](#): > > I don’t believe, as FriendofGod seems to believe, that it’s possible to drag people through a step-by-step tutorial on how to discover God. Just to clarify: I don’t intend it to sound like a step by step tutorial. I simply want to give people something to consider and think about. If someone _wants_ to give their heart to Christ, I can step them through a simple process. As you implied, in some cases God just “does” it with no one there to lead the person. Those are the testimonies I love the most. Halfway down page 2 **My response to Spider Woman** I said: > [@](#): > > . . . all the successes they’ve piled up, all the money they’ve made, all the people they’ve helped … it was all for nothing. You responded: > [@](#): > > Does what you are saying here mean that good works and kindnesses are worthless because they do not garner you the reward of getting into heaven? I’ll confess I didn’t word that very well. I shouldn’t have said “all for nothing” without explaining. I didn’t mean that helping people, etc has no benefits at all. They certainly do have benefits. What I should have said more accurately is that at the end of your life, you realize that you still have a gnawing emptiness inside of you that hasn’t gone away. In fact, it’s grown stronger. And it’s there no matter what you’ve done. I also was getting at this: many think mistakenly that if their good outweights their bad, God will bring them into heaven. Another point I was trying to make is that those who live by this philosophy and never turn to Christ will find out at the end of their life that no amount of good they do can ever pay for the sins they’ve committed. Only Christ can do that. So anyway, I apologize for stating my point so poorly. > [@](#): > > And if I am wrong, and there is a god, and that god demands worship and faith and values those things above kindness and good works, maybe I am better off not being one of the select. God doesn’t value worship and faith above good works. Are you ready for this? Right after the famous verse in the Bible that says we can’t be saved by works, it says this: > [@](#): > > For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:10) So, don’t mistake the Christian message. It doesn’t say good works aren’t valuable … they just aren’t what gets you to heaven. **My response to slythe** > [@](#): > > FoG, you have a major blind spot. You argue as if the choices are believing or not believing. > > I ask you, what if you are wrong in not believing in Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, The Invisible Pink Unicorn, or any of thousands of possibilities available? Well! Maybe I _am_ wrong slythe! Tell you what. Show me evidence that the God of the universe wants me to have a relationship of some sort with one or more of these characters. Show me in God’s Word where it implies or says they exist, or even some other holy book that has supernatural qualities (ie, written over thousands of years by dozens of different authors with different backgrounds, with a consistant and logical theme, and that God speaks to me through on a regular basis). So show me this, and I’ll consider it! _Gosh_, I’m glad you pointed out this blind spot! I hope Zeus isn’t too mad. **My response to Dr. Lao (3rd time!)** You explained Pascal’s Wager. So if I understand, he is arguing against the whole notion of “If I’m right and you’re wrong, look at what you’re losing – take a chance.” The crux of his diagreement with this logic seems to be similar to slythe’s: that it’s not “believe in God or don’t believe in God”, but “don’t believe in God, or believe in God #1, or believe in God #2, …” etc. But what are the consequences of not believing in _other_ gods? Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I understand … consequences in other religions aren’t as serious as hell. I mean, perhaps in your second life you come back as a frog instead of a butterfly. Yeah that’d be a bummer but it’s a whole world of difference from hell! I say Pascal missed the point, unless other religions have severe punishments for not believing what they teach. Thank you for explaining the “wager” to me Dr. Lao. **My response to Zabes** > [@](#): > > I have a feeling that if you try to imagine the world without God, you see everything as cold and empty. When I imagine the world without God, I see everything exactly as it is today. If you really want to understand my viewpoint, you need to understand that statement. I do indeed, and I’m afraid I don’t fully understand. Are you saying you see your life as you would expect it to be if there were no God? If I’m not “getting” it, please feel free to clarify. > [@](#): > > You also asked what I mean by “I tried to believe.” I will post an answer in the Agnostic/Atheist Epiphanies thread, as I think it is a more appropriate place. Your link took me to the thread but I couldn’t find a post by you in it. I don’t know if you just havent had time or if the bulletin board monster ate it. At any rate, I’d still like to see it if you get a chance to post it. **My response to GLWasteful** > [@](#): > > I have a hard time accepting stories of miracles that are exclusively reported in Christian publications … I maintain that some other, more secular, outlet would have picked up on it Well you have to realize the _vast_ majority of the press today are filled with people who think just like you! They don’t _believe_ in this stuff and don’t give it the time of day. I almost am sympathetic and understanding up to a point. They think Christians are religious wackos who make stuff up in their head and perform parlor tricks. Not to mention, network news has (until recently) been fairly nervous about covering anything religion-based. Things are _slowly_ changing thankfully. Who knows? Maybe in years to come you _will_ see the mass media start to cover this stuff (as well as _daily_ persecution of Christians in China, another woefully ignored subject by the media at large). There are changes. ABC has hired a born again Christian as a “religion reporter”. They are the only network _with_ a religion reporter! It’ll be a few years before things really balance out. > [@](#): > > I found numerous reprints of the same article in English, and more than a few in Spanish. Unfortunately, I cannot translate from work, but the Spanish articles I looked at all seemed to be reprints of something. Two guesses as to what I imagine they were reprinting. I’m not following. You’re saying the Charisma article was reprinted in Spanish and in other English outlets. And your point is … ? Not trying to be cutesy, I just don’t follow what you’re trying to say. > [@](#): > > You are attempting to turn the discussion away from the alleged miracles that you have claimed are happening everywhere, and toward the bias of publications. That’s the sort of thing I would expect me to do. Not one who is an upright Christian such as yourself. Oh good grief. Laughable! I’m desperately trying to shift the discussion, _right_. But thanks for calling me an upright Christian in the midst of that :). As I said in my list several pages back, it’s various sources over the course of many years – many of them are simply first hand accounts from people who were there. I wish I had more printed stuff to tell you about right off the bat. But I kinda think anything I give you will be a waste of time: you’ve already said you think Christian mags have a high bias rate, and that’s pretty much where my printed sources are from (Charisma, Forerunner news, etc). Oh, I am too too close to finished! I may just keep going in a bit … ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/129 "2000-08-27T01:42:37Z")
Near the bottom of page 2 **My response to nick** > [@](#): > > I have an aunt, who has raised her kids to be extremely devoted to god. One is 18, one is 16, or something around that. Both are very, very religious. They’ve made a vow not to date, because it would ‘interfere’ with their worship of god. Does anyone else find this disturbing? > > The moral of this particular story was; Don’t socialize with non-christians. Disturbing. If I believed in a God, I would think that he would NOT approve of this. Well, the first one, “vowing not to date”, is pretty extreme, although I’d like to know more specifics. Is it a commitment to not date _ever_, or just until they reach a certain age or level of maturity? Before I jump all over your aunt, I’d want to know more. But at first blush it sounds extreme. As for the “moral of the story” … to say God would not approve is an understatement. This “moral” directly contradicts the Bible! Not to mention the whole _life_ of Jesus, who spent lots of his time hanging out with sinners! > [@](#): > > Christians are, in my opinion, in a state of extreme denial. Try to reason logically with them, and they quote from the Bible, like it’s concrete evidence! Ask them what proof they have that God exists, almost invariably they will say “How was the Universe created?”. Obviously that is a question no one can answer. Faith is not proof!! > > Please, a christian please answer this question: how do you know your religion is the ‘right’ one? But you are making a huge assumption here. Do you realize the Bible contains inherent logic all throughout? It’s God’s book, and He’s the most logical being in the universe! So it’s not so bad to quote a book full of logic to explain a logical point. Having said that, there’s another reason Christians quote from the Bible. God lives in us, and God _inspired_ the Bible and _He_ knows it’s real, and it just naturally seeps into _us_ and we end up believing it’s real too! As for the creation of the universe being something no one can answer … I disagree. To me it is the essence of pure, simple, basic, common sense to look at the intricate complexity of the world, the complexity of human beings and everything else and say … “obviously, this didn’t just ‘happen’”. As for Christianity being the ‘right’ religion … look further back in this topic for my comments on that. Aside to **Polycarp** : just wanted you to know I’m reading your posts even though they are mostly not directed at me. I agreed with the four points you listed. **My response to stuffinb** Regarding my “it’s all for nothing” comment: > [@](#): > > I don’t know about everyone else but I’m getting real tired of this assupmtion. That my (or anyones) good deeds are worthless, if they’re not based in God. See my response to Spider Woman earlier for a clarification. **My response to matt** > [@](#): > > People report improvements in condition, reduced pain and alleviation of other symptoms when given “medication”, even if the “medication” is a sugar tablet. Belief is a powerful thing, there are interactions between our mental states and our immune systems which are not fully understood. Interesting. But how about the _big_ ones … ie, blind eyes suddenly opened, lame people able to walk, etc. > [@](#): > > If we started with a perfect world, we didn’t and don’t have the power to mess it up with earthquakes and tornadoes and maleria mosquitoes and birth defects. Sure we screwed up, but God decided what the consequences would be. He made the changes to the perfect world, we didn’t have the power to. Fair question. It goes back to the root of free will. Follow this trail with me: 1. God creates earth. 2. God gives ownership of earth to Adam and Eve. 3. Adam and Eve sin, and as a result the earth comes under the ownership of Satan. 4. Earth under the ownership of Satan, naturally, comes under a general curse. It’s a free will thing. We foolishly chose to sin and the result was we handed earth over to Satan which places the earth under a curse. So no, God _didn’t_ “decide the consequences”. They _happened_ as a result of our free-will choice to sin, and Satan taking control of earth. You might ask … “So why doesn’t God _stop_ him?” Well … He _WILL_ stop him one day! The reason He doesn’t now is mercy … He’s giving _US_ as many opportunities to come to Him as possible before the final judgment. > [@](#): > > are you saying that our sinning messed up God’s universe somehow in a way which he couldn’t prevent or chose not to prevent? The _latter_ … “chose” not to prevent. Why, you ask? Again, it was _our_ _choice_ as mankind to go in this direction. It’s what we wanted and He gave it to us. (Ouch that bites!) God doesn’t intervene except in cases of answers to prayer. Ie, unless we _ASK_ Him to intervene (free will again)! This is why prayer is so important! > [@](#): > > I can only reiterate what I said - the universe is so enormous, and we occupy such a tiny fraction of it, that I find the idea that we are here to share it with the Creator laughable. Oh believe me it’s amazing every time I think of it. We don’t deserve it. But it _IS_ what God wants! The God of this enormous universe wants to know you personally and share it all with you! It’s like the Prez of the US wanting to know you on a personal basis! Top of page 3 **My response to further** You asked this rather intriguing question: > [@](#): > > A question for FoG and other believers: > > There has been a lot of talk about “free will” and how important it is for God to let humans make choices on their own. He will not force anyone to love him; people must be allowed to use choose their actions freely. > > But if God is active in people’s daily lives, isn’t this messing with “free will?” There are numerous examples from the Bible of God choosing people’s action and thoughts, from sending Nathan to David after the Bathsheba incident to God “hardening” the Pharoh’s heart. Didn’t God take away their free will and abilty to choose in these cases? As far as I know, God will _intervene_ in our lives in several ways: 1. _Nudging_ us in a direction. This would be along the lines of Nathan challenging David. God didn’t force David to respond but sure pressed the issue! But David could have chosen to not repent if he wanted to. 2. “Handing you over” to the direction you’re going in anyway. Romans 1 speaks of this, and that’s my best guess as to the famous “hardening of Pharoah’s heart”. It starts by saying _he_ hardened his heart, and God seemed to say, “Well if you really want to go there, let’s go there!” So in a sense it’s still free will … and God’s response is one of the consequences of your free will choice. 3. Answers to prayer. This totally ties in with free will. The whole point of prayer is that God won’t interfere unless you _ask_ Him to! _IF_ you ask Him to, lets say, get the attention of an unsaved relative, He won’t interfere with their free will but He might interfere with their _life_ for a while! He might shake things up! But they still have free will as far as their response. Interesting question. I’m sure there’s more than the three I listed. **My response to Ura Maru** Thank you for your research! I like seeing quotes from other religious books like this! I have some interesting thoughts on the lines you quoted, but first I’d like to know: is the “Tao” the closest equivalent to a “god” in this religion? What’s with the whole ‘tao’ thing? Regarding God showing me things: > [@](#): > > I can’t accept this as anything but you rembering past learning, or figuring things out for yourself, (I might buy, as I said, “God is helping me remember,” or something of the like) and you are unwilling to put it to a test that I would accept. I doubt it would convince you anyway. I will say the same to you I’ve said to others … if you want to check out authentic Christianity, go to a Godly Bible believing church for a few months and observe. > [@](#): > > If you were in a plane and the pilot had a heart attack, would God give you knowlage of how to fly it? I doubt it, but then again if I were in the situation I might ask just in case! 😉 Regarding the media reporting on miracles: > [@](#): > > Now, there’s always an equal amount of evidence that anything you care to name is covered up by a vast conspiricy that has blotted out all evidence. But if so, you’d expect miricle reports to pop up in fringe media, or at least in some non-christian publications/web pages. But I’ve never seen many OT miricle reports in a publication that wasn’t specifically devoted to that type of thing. (Like Charisma, for instance) See my response to GLWasteful earlier … > [@](#): > > Is is possible that many of these miricles are just misunderstood science? (Like a lens flare becoming “the gate to heaven”) And, obviously, at least some miricles are outright frauds, like the old balloon faith healer trick. Yeah there are fakes but there are real ones as well. No, there’s pretty much no chance of misunderstood science here. Blind eyes opening, lame walking, etc aren’t easy to fake if they’re legitimate healings. > [@](#): > > None of them mentioned any kind of miricles in their homeland, which is kind of odd if they were as common as you say. Again, all I have are sketchy details in my head from 20+ years of hearing and reading stories from various places. I don’t know specific locations and places unfortunately. > [@](#): > > Well, my point was having my friend having a much easier road kind of blows apart your earlier statement that anyone who truly seeks Christ will find him. If my friend has such an easier time of it than, say, Retsudo Yagyu, then what you mean is that “anyone who seeks Christ enough to find him, based on his situation and point of origin will find him.” Which, frankly, seems grossly unfair. How does this change anything? My whole point is that anyone who wants to find God can find Him. For someone born into a Christian home in the USA it might be a lot _easier_ than someone born in a nonbelieving home where missionaries have never visited … but both have a chance if they’re willing to seek after Him. Regarding my friend’s miracle: > [@](#): > > Well, I hate to be blunt, but you’d have a much stronger case if you knew one way or another. You know, you’re right! I think I’m going to call her and see if, per chance, she does have any kind of record of it. That would be pretty cool if she did! > [@](#): > > Well, five years of explaing “yes, that’s how it happened” could have blended memories and the story together. To clarify further: in 1986 a pastor-friend told the story in detail during a sermon which I got in the mail. I met the lady 5 yrs later and she told the same story. She just gave me even more details. > [@](#): > > Thing is, even if I was willing to accept this as perfectly accurate, which I’m not, all this would be proof of is that something supernatural happened. It could have been a demon, a ghost, a secret government nano project, or one of the prayer-givers was, unknowingly, a powerful anime style psychic, and healed your friend without knowing it. And this, to be honest, is why I hesitate to _really_ try hard to do “extra” stuff … because I think, what’s the point? It won’t convince anyone even if it’s the best evidence you can find. > [@](#): > > Are demonic powers a part of any standard christian doctorine? I ask because I _thought_ that they were not, that demons could influence peoples hearts, but not actually do stuff, at least in modern times. Or is this different from sect to sect? Yes, demons are very much a part of Christian doctrine. If you study the Bible you will see them popping up quite a bit. If you don’t know Christ and you open yourself to a demon, it can literally take control of you. This can’t happen to a Christian, but a Christian can be _harassed_ by demons relentlessly. They’re like buzzing bees. Regarding religions you said: > [@](#): > > In any case, you’ve said you arn’t an expert in any of them. How can you make this statement if you haven’t studied at least the “major players” to a certain degree? And then you went on to recommended reading. Actually, _MANY_ years ago I studied cults, but not world religions to the depth I wish I had. It _would_ be interesting to read up on it and I probably should over time. _Now_ is not a good time to give me more reading however, as I’m studying for a rather strenuous computer certification called MCSE that consists of several very big books. Maybe _after_ I’m done, k? 😉 **My response to Holly** Regarding nonbelievers doing what they want to: > [@](#): > > Again, unbelievers are not necessarily amoral. In many cases, nonbelievers are more moral than believers, because we know there is no one to forgive us of our crimes. I’m not talking about morality, I’m talking about doing what _you_ want to do. Running your own life. A Christian’s life is not his/her own. He/she has submitted it to Christ. > [@](#): > > Even if you’re right, I fail to see how helping people could ever be “all for nothing”. See my earlier response to Spider Woman to clarify this quote. I explained Christianity in a nutshell and you said: > [@](#): > > This does not in any way explain why Christianity makes sense. This is your opinion, with nothing concrete to back it up. It wasn’t as indepth as in “Christianity & Love”, but it was a summary. And I’m afraid it’s not just my opinion, but it’s what God declares in the Bible as the way to salvation. God is pretty concrete I’d say! Don’t worry, I realize you don’t see it that way. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/130 "2000-08-27T01:44:52Z")
I finally have solid, believable proof! Are you ready? I am finally, totally caught up on responding to posts. There! If _THAT_ doesn’t convince you, nothing will! … (couldn’t resist :D) … ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/131 "2000-08-27T06:35:18Z")
**FriendofGod** wrote last night: > [@](#): > > Let me illustrate the true “choice” issue: it is _not_ “holding a gun to your head and asking you to either _choose_ to give me your wallet, or die” like you said. It is more akin to rafting down a river and being warned that if you go one way you’ll end up in a river full of rocks, waterfalls, and miserable pitfalls; and being told that going the other way leads to clear waters with no obsticles. Not a perfect illustration but it makes the point. If you _choose_ to go the wrong way, it’s your choice! And you have to live with the consequences. But God created those consequences. To continue the analogy, God is saying “There are two ways to raft down this river. On the left fork, I have placed sharp rocks and dropoffs. On the right fork, I have placed beautiful ponds and ice cream stands. Obviously, the natural consequence of taking the left fork is being dashed to pieces on the rocks. The choice is up to you.” That still isn’t a choice. **FriendofGod** wrote tonight: > [@](#): > > But what are the consequences of not believing in _other_ gods? Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I understand … consequences in other religions aren’t as serious as hell. I mean, perhaps in your second life you come back as a frog instead of a butterfly. Yeah that’d be a bummer but it’s a whole world of difference from hell! > > I say Pascal missed the point, unless other religions have severe punishments for not believing what they teach. (Actually, Pascal proposed that the logical choice was to believe in God.) What if another religion offers even worse consequences for disbelief than Christianity does? Suppose that as the chief prophet of the Electric Church of kow, I contend that if you accept kow into your life, worship kow after every meal, and never eat vegetables, you will receive eternal happiness. If you fail to do this, or if you subscribe to the heretical beliefs of any other religions, you and everyone you love will receive an eternity of unimaginable pain, humiliation, and frustration. Is that a valid reason to give up your current beliefs and adopt mine? ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/132 "2000-08-27T15:24:55Z")
Actually, Polycarp, anglicising non-romance non-latin languages is something I’m pretty relaxed about, actually. I’m an anime fan and am (or at least was) an amature martial artist, so I’ve been involved in enough arguments about spellings and pronucniation to kill a lesser man. Well, if you could find a lesser man, that is . . . The “no relation” comment was a bit of a joke, actually. They’re not all winners, I guess. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Identifying what happened is useful, and the province of the scientific researcher; why it happened in a metaphysical sense is the province of the religious scholar. It sounds like another non-overlapping magisteria item. Sounds good to me. “If you look for guns, you will find guns. If you look for Allah, you will find Allah.” FoG said: > [@](#): > > And the _option_ to be sin free _IS_ very much available. The curse of the sin of Adam and Eve simply means that no one can be _successful_ at obtaining that perfection. In other words, you have free will to _try_, but you won’t succeed Then we _can’t_ do it, and claiming that it’s an option is not accurate. The “option” to fly under our own power is theoretically possible too, but that’s not the same as saying “the _option_ to fly is very much available.” And no fair using “fly” in the poetic sense here. Or claiming we can if we have a plane. And no “throwing yourself at the ground and missing” comments, please. 🙂 That’s like pushing someone off a cliff, and then claiming it’s not your responsiblity when they splat because they “didn’t” fly. > [@](#): > > God doesn’t value worship and faith above good works. Are you ready for this? Well, your discription of him kind of does. He rewards faith(well, one kind of faith) & good works with heaven, faith sans good works with heaven, good works sans faith with hell. That seems to indicate which he feels is more important, even if he approves of both. > [@](#): > > But you are making a huge assumption here. Do you realize the Bible contains inherent logic all throughout? It’s God’s book, and He’s the most logical being in the universe! So it’s not so bad to quote a book full of logic to explain a logical point. That’s what _Christianity and Love_ ended up being about. If we want to go through all that again, we can, but the general consensus seemed to be 1) Many people here disagreed that it was wholly logical, even other christians, and 2) there seemed to be other religions or philosophies that were at least as logical as Christaity. > [@](#): > > first I’d like to know: is the “Tao” the closest equivalent to a “god” in this religion? What’s with the whole ‘tao’ thing? The Tao isn’t a god. “Tao” means way. It’s sort of the Way of the Universe. In the same sence that the Christain God is a big glowing guy wiht a long beard sitting on a throne on top of a cloud. 🙂 It’s sort of like Star Wars’ “force,” but without the parlor tricks. Taoism is more of a philosophy on life than something you would worship. Remeber, I’m _not_ an expert on any of this. > [@](#): > > Blind eyes opening, lame walking, etc aren’t easy to fake if they’re legitimate healings. Actually, they’re very easy to fake, with a little effort and the help of the healee, who may or may not need healing in the first place. A magician says “I’m going to trick you.” and then does. A faith healer says “I’m going to perform a miricle!” then procedes to do so. I don’t _belive_ I just quoted a Spiderman comic in a religious debate. That’s a big goodbye to my credibity. 🙂 > [@](#): > > And this, to be honest, is why I hesitate to _really_ try hard to do “extra” stuff … because I think, what’s the point? It won’t convince anyone even if it’s the best evidence you can find. Well, we agree on that much, at least. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Yes, demons are very much a part of Christian doctrine. If you study the Bible you will see them popping up quite a bit. If you don’t know Christ and you open yourself to a demon, it can literally take control of you. This can’t happen to a Christian, but a Christian can be _harassed_ by demons relentlessly. They’re like buzzing bees. Well, I have read the bible, so I know there are demons in there, but I thought that, in current doctrine, they don’t “do” anything in the physical sense, just the spiritual/corrupting sense. I ment doctinraly. (Doctorinologicaly?) I know that a lot of christians do belive in them, though. You’re going for MSCE certification? Your already exposing yourself to demonic influence. 🙂 Oh, and one other thing. You might not want to use the word “cult,” at least not around here. A cult is something specific, it’s not just a religion that you don’t subscribe to. Most people, correctly, take offense if you label what they belive a “cult.” Many religions, though certainly not all, have some kind of hell, either for unbelivers, or for specific sins, a-la Dante. If I remeber correctly, the one variant of Buhdism has a hell for desicrating holy symbols that was to be nibbled by ducks forever. If I rember correctly, which isn’t very likly. – “Well, an associate angel of death.” ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/133 "2000-08-27T15:40:42Z")
Missed one. 🙂 Triskadecamus: > [@](#): > > Ok, Lib, Poly, it’s up to us! No more Mr. Nice guy! Let’s start a campaign of raised voices to drive the unfit from the Church. We’ll show these fundamentalists just who the real Christians are! Yeah. I don’t think slythe was suggesting a pogrom, though that idea is not without a certain amount of appeal. He ment making it clear via the media or whatever that people like Robinson don’t speak for you, or the majority of Christians. A lot of people (And these are people that I actually know, not hyperbole) hear the word “Christian” and think of the justification that was used to terrorize them when they were children, or the justification for keeping them an “outsider,” or the smug people who constly tell them how they’re going to hell. When you hear a Christain being interviewed about his charity work, for instance, you never hear him say “I just want to show/say that Christianity is about lovinging people, not condemning them.” or the like. And that kind of thing might really help your image. And a gentle protest towards the world according to Falwell might help, too. – “” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/134 "2000-08-27T15:50:00Z")
I don’t know about Tris or Poly, but precious little media are available to me. I use those I am capable to use, including this one. You and we could help each other. I have told many theists in my acquaintance what I have learned about atheists here, that there are those with meticulous ethics and character, and loving charitable hearts. You can tell your atheist friends, too, that you have met followers of Christ who genuinely love you and believe you to be our brothers and sisters. No strings. Just love. Tell them that we do not recognize those who call themselves Christians but whose hearts are cold. They are not our brothers and sisters. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/135 "2000-08-27T16:02:33Z")
Thank you for the clarification. You are right in that I was trying to make a “clean out the log in your own eye before you point out the mote in mine” reference. It’s not enough for Christians to say to themselves, “_We_ know who the “true” Christians are.” It’s not even enough to make a quiet declaration here on the SDMB. We are usually willing to discuss various viewpoints here, and I asume that we are, on an average, slightly above normal intelligence-wise. If you want to let the general public know what you think real Christianity is, you have to go out into the public and let them know what real Christianity is _not_. You will have to be willing to anger those who are now representing you out there: the Pat Robertsons, the Jerry Falwells, the Jerry Swaggarts, etc. If you do NOT tell the public that these are not the true leaders of Christianity, the public will have to believe that they are. Just a small suggestion from an atheist. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/136 "2000-08-27T16:26:08Z")
Well, I do speak out. I do it here. I do it other places, although not as often, since I speak at all more here than anywhere but work, and I don’t speak of the Lord at work much. (ethical reasons which are complex, and difficult to explain) But the thing you have to realize is that Falwell, Phelps, and the raving bible thumpers are among my Lord’s children too, just as are Saddam Hussein, and The Ayatollah Khomeni. In this very thread I actually rebuked someone. That’s really strong stuff. It is an assumption of authority. I generally don’t do that. But it was only directed at the specific things that the person did. God did not put me on the earth to save souls. The fact that I am forgiven does not make me a greater soul, it just makes me want to be one. There a many thousands of people out there living their lives in great faith, and with love for all their fellows. Some are even members of Christian Churches. You might be surprised to realize it, but for all his own veniality and self aggrandizement, every week Jerry Falwell stands in front of some very kind and decent people. His worth is not a measure of their faith. And I can never even know the measure of Jerry’s faith. (Although the store up guns and food for the coming of the Lord in Y2K thing was a real puzzler, faith wise.) Just as I will not set myself to judge you, and your beliefs, I cannot be the judge of Christians. I am but the judge of Triskadecamus. And in that office, I am, happily, subject to one final appellate review. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/137 "2000-08-27T18:36:06Z")
**Free will and sin** **FoG** said: > [@](#): > > Yes, “we” includes everyone. And the _option_ to be sin free _IS_ very much available. The curse of the sin of Adam and Eve simply means that no one can be _successful_ at obtaining that perfection. In other words, you have free will to _try_, but you won’t succeed. But again, this isn’t _God’s_ fault, nor was it God’s plan. He never wanted it to be this way! What He did was jump into the picture to _fix_ this mess! I agree with **Ura-Maru** on this point. If the choice existed, yet none of the 10 billion people who have ever lived have chosen it, it is a false choice. I mean, I could say any number of choices are open to you, but if one half of the choice is impossible then there is no choice. I don’t buy the “free will to try” explanation. If that were the case everyone who tried to be sin free would be good enough with or without Christ. The whole point of free will is that our decisions can affect where we go after we die. If no set of decisions will lead to a sin free life, and we need to be sin free to go to heaven, then there is no free will. If all we have to do now is believe in Christ to get into heaven, then I agree we have free will again. However, under the old rules humans did not have free will. Christ must have been necessary to restore free will. So God was not blameless. He allowed people to exist without free will for a long time. > [@](#): > > This may sound silly, but your next paragraph got me so excited I was hyperventilating! Don’t get too excited, I’m merely beginning to understand your beliefs, I still don’t subscribe to them. I am still unclear on one point. Based on what you say next I’m not sure the restored free will idea works either. > [@](#): > > To clarify, it doesn’t mean we suddenly never sin again, it means the _direction_ of our heart has changed. It means we have new _power_ to walk in Godliness available to us! We still have to _choose_ to access it, but at least it’s available! If God removed original sin from those BA Christians, why do they all still sin? I don’t think you are claiming that you haven’t sinned since you were born again. So what is the explanation? Shouldn’t BA Christians have there orginal choice of whether to sin or not to sin, just like Adam and Eve? They should be just like them without original sin. But they still sin, every one of them. Under Christ do people get the right to sin without afterlife consequences? I think you need to show me a bunch of BA Christians that have chosen to never sin again after the were born again for me to believe that Christ returns the choice of not to sin to these people. **Miracles witnessed by FoG** > [@](#): > > I know some of you will be skeptical, but that’s just how I see it. You are right, I am skeptical. And I know that is how you see it. You believe in God so strongly that when people tell you a story that seems to glorify God you immeadiatly believe it. However, when people on this board say that they prayed to God and got nothing in response, you question that because it doesn’t mesh with your beliefs. I don’t question your sincerity, **FoG** , just your method. What makes you so sure on the one hand and so skeptical on the other? I know you think if you ask them questions you will find out that they didn’t come to God with the right attitude. This is what some people find offensive about you and other Christians. How do you know how they came to God? You would rather assume that there is something wrong with the person than there is something wrong with God. This may be natural based on your assumptions, but it is far from objective. **The Wager** > [@](#): > > But what are the consequences of not believing in _other_ gods? Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I understand … consequences in other religions aren’t as serious as hell. I mean, perhaps in your second life you come back as a frog instead of a butterfly. Yeah that’d be a bummer but it’s a whole world of difference from hell! Just like [bUra-Maru\*\* I picked up on this. **FoG** the logical conclusion of Pascal’s wager is that you should believe in God, but it doesn’t speak as to which religion. If you said the Christian hell was the worst place you could go after death, I could make up a religion that had a worse punishment than hell. Pascal’s Wager is a philsophical dead end at this point. I find it interesting that you tried to use it to prove Christianity is the right religion. Even if Christianity is the one true religion, nonsense will not point to Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Falcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/49beb7/32.png) [@Falcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falcon)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/138 "2000-08-27T19:38:23Z")
Quick post, since I’m on vacation. FoG - I’m sorry, but I have no desire to find Christians who would pressure me to come back. I respect those Christians who respect me for what I am, such as Lib, Poly, and Tris. The rest…I know they’re not real Christians, and they will reap what they have sown. At this time in my life, however, my scars are such that I can’t go back. As for my personal issues…I’d rather not discuss them further here on the board. Especially not in GD. I will only say that since I converted to being a Pagan, I no longer walk alone. And that was something that wasn’t true the last few years I was a Christian. If you want to discuss THIS part of my post further, FoG, I invite you to email me. The address is at the bottom of the post. ---
**Author:** ![lambda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5f9b8f/32.png) [@lambda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lambda)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/139 "2000-08-27T20:49:31Z")
**FriendofGod:** I would really like to know what is the actual premise in your question that gave the title of this thread. Please consider the following questions carefully. One might say that they need a truly amazing miracle. Or, maybe, even a smaller one, you know, like turning off the light. Can you make miracles happen? Or, maybe it’s logical proof that they need. Are you implying you know of such a proof? If yes, when someone doesn’t agree with that proof, do you think it’s because nobody explained it to them properly? Or, perhaps, because their reasoning abilities are not up to the task? Finally, one might say that what it takes for them is an encounter with God Himself. Do you think you can deliver God? FriendofGod, do you really think you can lead someone to God by asking them this question, learning their response, and then fulfilling it? If not, why are you asking this question? If yes: have you considered the possibility that, by challenging people the way you did in this thread, and then failing to deliver, you might interfere with a person’s intimate spiritual path, and contribute to their drifting away from God **forever**? ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/140 "2000-08-28T06:58:26Z")
The issue of free will keeps cropping up, and so I thought I’d dedicate a post to it. Let me try to summarize what some of your objections to free will seem to be. First, some of you are saying that heaven versus hell is not a ‘real choice’ because God is saying ‘choose this really obviously awful place or choose this really obviously terrific place’. In other words, how can you call it a choice if **not** choosing the good place results in automatically choosing the bad place. Second, some of you have said that it is not fair to say we have a choice not to sin if ‘original sin’ means that we will all fail at the attempt. Let me try to answer both objections. Lets tackle the second objection first. Let me clarify what I mean when I say we have a choice not to sin. At each individual temptation that each one of us faces, we have a choice to give in to that temptation or to resist it. Let’s take one example: you are tempted to curse at someone who just cut in front of you in traffic. You can choose to do it or not to. The problem isn’t that we don’t have a choice. The problem is that we are born with a **tendency** to choose **wrong**. That tendency doesn’t **force** us to choose one way or the other. We still bear responsibility. I may **want** to curse the driver out, and I may feel a strong tug to do so, but I still can choose to say no to that tug. The fact that we are born with this tendency is not God’s fault, it’s our own. Not ours personally, but us as humanity. What I think you all are **really** complaining about is the fact that we don’t have a choice but to be born with this sinful tendency. **That’s** the choice that you are saying we don’t have. And I would agree, that bites! I don’t like it either. Heck, I’ll even agree that it ‘isn’t fair’. If you look at people with individual specific sin-habits as an illustration, the situation becomes clearer. Lets say we have an alcoholic. Many people who are alcoholics had the curse of alcoholism passed on to them by one or both of their parents. In other words, this person was born with a tendency toward alcoholism. Did that take away his freedom of choice? No. It simply made it **harder** for him to choose in this area. A good counselor wouldn’t allow this person to blame their parents, because they had a choice even thought it was a hard choice. The **fact** that it’s harder for him is the thing he **didn’t** have a choice in. Same with us. We can’t blame our ‘parents’ either (Adam and Eve). We can’t change the fact that it’s hard to choose the right way, but we can still choose it. So how should you respond to this situation? You can do one of two things. First, you can complain to God that it isn’t fair, that it isn’t a “real choice”, and be mad at Him for not fixing it. Or, you can realize that God **did** provide a solution to the problem and **receive** it. Granted, as some of you pointed out in these recent posts, salvation isn’t a **total** reversal of the Garden of Eden because Christians still sin. But the curse of the **tendency** toward sin is reversed at salvation, and that’s the main thing you guys are concerned about anyway! And besides that, the **end** result of salvation **is** a total reversal of the Garden of Eden. When we reach heaven, somehow our wills are reshaped so that we will always want to obey and love Him forever. And even **that** is a free will choice, because every true believer **wants** to walk in total obedience and love to Christ! Now, on to the first objection. In a way, you guys are absolutely right. It’s **not** much of a choice. In fact, that’s one of the best safeguards for a Christian who is tempted to backslide. I’ve had many discussions with fellow Christians about struggles they are facing. The discussion would go like this, “It’s such a tough area for me, I’m not sure what God wants me to do or how to handle it … but I’m obviously going to stick it out until I find out. I mean, after all, what **else** can I do? Go back to the world??” (laughs hysterically at the idea). It’s a huge blessing that worldliness and the end result (hell) is not much of a choice. It makes it easier to choose Christ when you can clearly **see** the contrast. The problem is few people see the contrast. But I digress. Despite what I just said, despite the fact that hell and worldliness is an incredibly, obviously foolish choice … it is still a choice. The objection seems to be that it’s almost a ‘forced’ choice – if you choose God you have tremendous blessings, if you choose hell you have tremendous torment. You seem to be saying ‘What kind of choice is that?’ The problem here is you are all taking a ‘glass is half empty’ approach, when in fact the glass is half full. The **first** reality that God had to face was the fact that we were all doomed to hell and there was no way out of it. Again, God did not create this circumstance, we did. **I** did. I chose to sin, and as a result, I deserved hell. You can try all day to turn it around somehow and make it God’s fault, but it’s not. Let’s camp on this point for a second. This proves that the whole ‘being stuck up at gunpoint’ illustration doesn’t work. In fact, my rafting illustration was weak too. A better illustration is being sentenced to death in the electric chair. We are sentenced to death and have **no** choice in the matter. No way out. No solution. No hope. And it’s our own fault! You can’t blame the judge who found us guilty because we **were** guilty! God responds to this situation by offering Jesus as a substitutionary sacrifice. In other words, we’ve gone from **no** choices at all to having an **alternative**! The illustrations you’ve all painted picture God as the bad guy, but in fact He’s the one stepping in and offering a way out! So yeah, in a sense it’s not much of a choice. But the **alternative** isn’t some “extra” choice: it’s to **literally** not have any choice at all! Which would you rather have? I hope this clarified some of the free will issues and gave you guys something to think about. I’d like to encourage you guys to seriously consider what I’ve said, and maybe even reread it a second time before responding. I know how easy it is to quickly react and object from the perspective of your worldview, but I hope you will slow down enough for a few seconds to read carefully what I’m saying and consider it. Thanks! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005.md?page=8)