# What Would It Take to Prove God's Existence to You? Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005 "2000-08-20T00:47:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![m3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@m3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/m3)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/141 "2000-08-28T07:28:48Z")
FoG, Not free will? Oh my god (no offense) A few questions: 1. is your god all-knowing? 2. is your god all- powerful? do you say yes to both? Then any kind of free will we have is a sham. God knew what “choices” adam and eve would make and all of the sinners after them too before he even made the universe. Hence HE chose to make sinners go to hell and people who sucked up to him go to heaven. The thought that a god would make me not just fallible but in your own portrayal prone to sin and then ask me not to sin, and make me face the possibility of eternal damnation if I didn’t think he was a cool cat for doing so, makes me sick. I couldn’t love that god and have any respect for myself. In fact I just plain couldn’t do it, it would be more like selfish ass-kissing “don’t send me to hell jesus, I think you’re great really” kind of thing. Eternity in Heaven worshiping that selfish oaf of a beast-creator would be akin to hell to me. Sorry if I’m reiterating points others have made in this incredibly long thread, but I’ve been wanting to vent that for a while and most Christians just don’t know how to handle it. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/142 "2000-08-28T08:01:49Z")
I’m now going to attempt to respond to some of the “non-free will” issues the rest of you brought up. **Mr2001** said: > [@](#): > > Pascal proposed that the logical choice was to believe in God Okay, I get it now. He said what I was saying – that if I’m right and you’re wrong, the consequences are huge, but not vice versa. Therefore, logically, choose God. And it’s atheists and others who object to this wager. Am I correct? > [@](#): > > What if another religion offers even worse consequences for disbelief than Christianity does? None that I know of do. And no, it wouldn’t instantly mean I should convert, but it would sure make sense to check out what they teach and look into it! **Ura-Maru** said: > [@](#): > > He rewards faith(well, one kind of faith) & good works with heaven, faith sans good works with heaven, good works sans faith with hell. That seems to indicate which he feels is more important, even if he approves of both. Well, you may be surprised that I wouldn’t say it exactly like that. “He rewards faith and good works with heaven” – no, it’s just faith alone that He rewards with heaven. The good works have nothing to do with anyone getting to heaven. As an example, I remember hearing about my mom’s eulogy for **her** mom back in 1987. She told everyone what they already knew, that this lady was well loved all her life and was sweet and kind and wonderful in many many ways. Then my mom said, “But … my mother did **not** go to heaven because she was a nice person. She did **not** go to heaven because she was well loved. She went to heaven for one reason … because she loved Jesus.” “He rewards faith sans good works with heaven” – are you ready for this? I don’t agree here either! Now I’m sure you’re going ‘huh??’ Good works don’t get us to heaven, but they **prove** that we truly have faith! Does that make sense? It’s a tough concept that Christians wrestle with a lot. But what I’m getting at is ‘faith sans good works’ is not really a possibility! (Well, I guess it is ‘technically’, ie deathbed conversions and all, but in general it’s not). “He rewards good works sans faith with hell” – but how long lasting are ‘good works’ if separated from Christ? You can help the poor and hungry in your neighborhood for decades on end, but if you can’t **also** offer them nourishment for their souls, have you really helped them in the long run? I know that sounds harsh, but it’s a harsh reality. Regarding the logic of Christianity you said: > [@](#): > > That’s what Christianity and Love ended up being about. If we want to go through all that again, we can, but the general consensus seemed to be 1) Many people here disagreed that it was wholly logical, even other christians, and 2) there seemed to be other religions or philosophies that were at least as logical as Christaity. Oh yeah, I remember that little ole thread called C&L. How can I forget?? In the context of the point I was making, I’m not even asking you to believe the Bible is God’s Word or is more logical than other religions. I’m just asking you to agree that it does contain logical points of truth in it, and that it’s not crazy to quote from a book like that to make a logical point about something. > [@](#): > > The Tao isn’t a god. “Tao” means way. It’s sort of the Way of the Universe . . . It’s sort of like Star Wars’ “force,” but without the parlor tricks. Taoism is more of a philosophy on life than something you would worship. “May the Tao be with you”, “Use the Tao, Luke” … nah, doesn’t work for me ;). Thanks for the explanation. Regarding healings, I said: > [@](#): > > Blind eyes opening, lame walking, etc aren’t easy to fake if they’re legitimate healings. You responded: > [@](#): > > Actually, they’re very easy to fake, with a little effort and the help of the healee, who may or may not need healing in the first place. I should have been more clear. I said “legitimate” healings. You asked if what we think of as “actual” healings are just “misunderstood science”. Now I realize I should’ve answered differently. What I’m saying is: it’s hard to misunderstand an **actual** (ie, not faked) case of blind eyes opening. More dueling quotes. I said: > [@](#): > > It won’t convince anyone even if it’s the best evidence you can find. You responded: > [@](#): > > Well, we agree on that much, at least. If that is really true, then I am probably spending a lot of time typing these responses for nothing. I don’t expect to convince everyone God exists, but I hope to at least get some people to look at things from a new perspective and consider other possibilities. I am seriously considering stopping this in the next few days, just because it doesn’t seem to be accomplishing much. Don’t take this rant personally :). I appreciate your honesty. > [@](#): > > Well, I have read the bible, so I know there are demons in there, but I thought that, in current doctrine, they don’t “do” anything in the physical sense, just the spiritual/corrupting sense. Well, they certainly primarily operate in the spirit realm. They rarely manifest physically (although this **does** sometimes happen, just like angels occasionally manifest physically). > [@](#): > > You’re going for MSCE certification? Your already exposing yourself to demonic influence. No kidding! The demon of alphabet soup. I go to bed thinking RAS, PPP, SLIP, TCP/IP, etc. Aarrrgghhh!! > [@](#): > > Oh, and one other thing. You might not want to use the word “cult,” at least not around here. A cult is something specific, it’s not just a religion that you don’t subscribe to. Most people, correctly, take offense if you label what they belive a “cult.” I don’t recall where I used the word “cult” but I’m sure I did somewhere along the way. I can’t really respond without more specifics but I do get what you’re saying. **Dr. Lao** , I hope I answered part of your free will questions in the last post. However, you did make these additional observations I want to address: > [@](#): > > If no set of decisions will lead to a sin free life, and we need to be sin free to go to heaven, then there is no free will. If all we have to do now is believe in Christ to get into heaven, then I agree we have free will again. However, under the old rules humans did not have free will. Christ must have been necessary to restore free will. So God was not blameless. He allowed people to exist without free will for a long time. Are you talking about Old Testament times? That’s what you seem to be saying from what I can tell. Please clarify if you meant something else. If this is what you mean, let me briefly comment. I will confess that I don’t fully grasp how it worked in O.T. times as well as I should. I can only tell you what I do understand: in O.T. times, believers looked **forward** to the coming Messiah in the same way we look **back** in history to Him. I believe there are some O.T. people who experienced the same thing Christians today do – a relationship with God that reverses the **tendency** toward sin. Christ’s sacrifice spans time: past, present, and future. But you know what? In reality, it’s a moot point. We’re here **today** , and the real issue is that **we** can choose to serve God **today**. Regarding free will after salvation, again, I addressed this in the earlier post but here’s one specific thing you said I wanted to respond to: > [@](#): > > Under Christ do people get the right to sin without afterlife consequences? No. It’s one of the most common misunderstandings though. In fact, there’s an **entire** chapter of the Bible dedicated to explaining this very point! Romans Chapter 6. No one has the ‘right’ to sin. A Christian is someone who is **changed** at salvation and no longer sees sin as something they **get** to do, but rather as something they want to get rid of in their lives! So no, Christianity isn’t the world’s greatest free license to sin as much as you want and “be forgiven”. Christians do sin and can be forgiven, but the direction of their life is to get **away** from sin and move toward Godliness. In Christianity, forgiveness is like this: you are aiming for a goal and you fall down and fail. God forgives you and says, “Now get back up, you can do it!” The false image some people have would be a person who **chooses** to fall down their whole life and doesn’t even aim for the goal, yet expects God to forgive them each time. Re: miracles and skepticism: > [@](#): > > You believe in God so strongly that when people tell you a story that seems to glorify God you immeadiatly believe it. Well, don’t assume that I immediately believe it each and every time. There are times that I have been skeptical of things I’ve heard and seen. Christians can exaggerate and I’ve seen it happen. I do observe carefully and don’t just take everything at face value. > [@](#): > > However, when people on this board say that they prayed to God and got nothing in response, you question that because it doesn’t mesh with your beliefs . . . I know you think if you ask them questions you will find out that they didn’t come to God with the right attitude. No, that’s not what I intend at all. It’s not necessarily that they had a wrong attitude at all (although that **is** one of the possibilities). Let me quote you again and I’ll respond some more: > [@](#): > > You would rather assume that there is something wrong with the person than there is something wrong with God. Well, I wouldn’t say “something wrong with the person”, but I would say “something’s being **missed** on this end.” In other words, as they say, if you and God are not close, guess who moved? It’s not God. The problem is on our end. And it could be a myriad of things. I’m not suggesting the person necessarily has a bad attitude at all. They could have a great attitude. But my point is, there is something not being understood on our end. God is never the guilty party because, well, you know, He’s **God**! Perfection and all that. For example, someone might seek God and have great motives and say they aren’t getting any feedback. It could simply be a misunderstanding on what they should expect. I ask questions like I do as a troubleshooter. I mentioned to someone earlier I’m studying for MCSE certification, and that involved a lot of troublehsooting! In some ways, you can apply the same general principles to spiritual things. Ask questions to find out what’s wrong, and fix the problem. Re: Pascal’s wager: > [@](#): > > I could make up a religion that had a worse punishment than hell. Pascal’s Wager is a philsophical dead end at this point. I find it interesting that you tried to use it to prove Christianity is the right religion. Well I didn’t really try to **prove** Christianity, just to point out that the consequences of **not** believing in it are huge if it turns out to be correct! And yes, you could invent a religion like that … but has anyone? Is there such a religion out there? Does it have millions of converts around the world? Not one that I know of. Again, correct me if I’m wrong. **Falcon** said: > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but I have no desire to find Christians who would pressure me to come back. It’s not about pressuring you to come back, it’s about **loving** you as a person, **period**. > [@](#): > > If you want to discuss THIS part of my post further, FoG, I invite you to email me. I will email you tomorrow night Falcon. 🙂 And finally, **lambda** said: > [@](#): > > I would really like to know what is the actual premise in your question that gave the title of this thread . . . Can you make miracles happen? . . . Are you implying you know of such a proof? . . . Do you think you can deliver God? . . . FriendofGod, do you really think you can lead someone to God by asking them this question, learning their response, and then fulfilling it? If not, why are you asking this question? I guess you’ve missed my earlier posts answering this question lambda. I’ve actually answered this several times in this course of this thread, but I’ll do it again. No, I’m not even attempting to convince people God exists on this thread. That is not my goal. I asked the question firstly to find out why atheists believe the way they do. Secondly, I want to give people something to think about. That’s it. That’s my big lofty goal. If I’ve given you guys something to think about then I’ve accomplished my goal. ---
**Author:** ![bj0rn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@bj0rn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bj0rn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/143 "2000-08-28T10:29:05Z")
ill start by quoting: > [@](#): > > God, for whatever reason, chooses to use imperfect people to execute His will in the earth. and > [@](#): > > They were created with a free will, and when they _used_ that free will to make a wrong choice, they _became_ imperfect this is in many ways the definition of human in a christian religious context. the christian religion and many other religious sects have the same basic philosophy; “you can do whatever you want if it does not hurt anyone else”. examples are: the commandments(not lie, not murder…) the justice system(you go to jail if you…) your conscience… lets talk about your conscience. your conscience is basically what is referred to as “free will”, that is if you are faced with a decision that is morally conflicting, you do what your conscience tells you. in all respects you are making the right decision if you do what your conscience tells you to do, if you act against it you are doing the wrong thing. the places heaven and hell exist because you have formed those places in your head, how you see them is how you belive in them. if you see heaven as a place where angels walk the clouds and god sitting in a throne viewing the earth, then that is your heaven. if you see hell as a place of fire where lava pours over the tormented souls of sin, that is your hell. but basically you have a free will about that too. i for example belive heaven to be a place i want to be in, it has all the facilities i consider fit my needs. hell on the other hand is a place where i dont want to be in. it is a place where everything i regret comes back to me and torments me. and because i dont want to be there i avoid doing anything that i might regret, if i unintentionally do i try to atone for what it have done to peace my conscience. you have to realize that as a human you are imperfect, as per the religious definition you life by, god chooses us imperfect humans to act and preach his will. the trouble is; WE DO IT OUR WAY! which basically means we created god in our image, we wrote the bible, we interpeted the commandments, we did it all… we may be wrong, and we may be right. it all depends on who is viewing the subject. there is no right or wrong about it, someone is always wrong about it and someone is always right about it. basically it does not matter, what matter is that we have the choice of having a clear conscience or not. if we do not, we know so and suffer for it(we being our own tormentors, suffering in our own hell as satan himself). if we have a clear conscience we enjoy the fruits of it in our heaven. i hope i have gotten my point across successfully… bj0rn - not a religious person… ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/144 "2000-08-28T16:32:45Z")
**FriendofGod** : > [@](#): > > I also was getting at this: many think mistakenly that if their good outweights their bad, God will bring them into heaven. Another point I was trying to make is that those who live by this philosophy and never turn to Christ will find out at the end of their life that no amount of good they do can ever pay for the sins they’ve committed. Only Christ can do that. Yeah, I know that it wasn’t directed toward me, but c’mon, **FoG** , what about the Jews? Y’know, “God’s chosen people”, and all like that? Did your God change his mind? Or will he be making concessions? And if he’ll be making concessions for the Jews, why not others? > [@](#): > > Well you have to realize the _vast_ majority of the press today are filled with people who think just like you! They don’t _believe_ in this stuff and don’t give it the time of day. I almost am sympathetic and understanding up to a point. They think Christians are religious wackos who make stuff up in their head and perform parlor tricks. Y’know, it probably would have been far easier, and taken up less space to refer me to your “Liberal, Godless Media” diatribe. I will say again: If these miracles that you have spoken of really happened, then it would have been at least mentioned by a major news outlet. They have not, so I am forced to think that they were the work of a very good PR person. Who, to get the word out, only sent press releases to media outlets that would print it verbatim, without bothering to look into the claims being made. Damnit, Sam, if you’ve got some real live honest-to-goodness proof, then submit it. Simple as that. > [@](#): > > (as well as _daily_ persecution of Christians in China, another woefully ignored subject by the media at large) I dunno, **I’ve** certainly read and heard about it. And you are aware, are you not, that China is also gleefully persecuting, Buddhists, Hindus, hell, pretty much everybody? > [@](#): > > I’m not following. You’re saying the Charisma article was reprinted in Spanish and in other English outlets. And your point is … ? Not trying to be cutesy, I just don’t follow what you’re trying to say. The very same article was reprinted in a number of Christian publications. However, it did not appear anywhere else. An article in Spanish, which, to my less-than-fluent eye, looked like the same article appeared in a number of publications. I would like to think that if these miracles that you’re on about were so prevalent, that more than one person would have noticed and reported on them, and that it would have been noticed by other media outlets. Also, Sparky, read what I said in my post. At no point in time did I say that you were “desperately trying to shift the discussion”. I simply pointed out your attempts to point the conversation toward the (alleged) bias of secular publications. Again, if these miracles are so widespread, then I guarantee you that they would have been reported somewhere besides _Charisma_. A magazine that was caught twisting the facts to fit their outlook by **Poly**. And I remember all too well that you said various sources had reported on said miracles. What are those sources? Yes, I may find the articles to be ridiculous, but why don’t you let me know what the publications are, so that I can check them out myself? Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/145 "2000-08-30T00:41:15Z")
That “good works” thing is a fun debate for Christians, but the bottom line is that we just use different names for the same concept, Friend. I think one of the most lucid explanations is the following long post, from a poster named Wolseley on a Christian board I visit: > [@](#): > > I think what we’re getting into here is the debate between salvation by grace (or faith through grace) vs. salvation by grace (or faith through grace) plus works. > > There is an old debate about “salvation through works”, usually issued with the attatched rider that no one can “earn” their way to heaven. That’s true, but it isn’t the whole story. > > First off, everybody performs works. Not just Catholics----Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, Muslims, atheists, everybody performs works. Works come in two different types. Good works are called good works. Bad works are called sins. Do you sin from time to time? Then you are performing works. > > That being said, let’s take a look at what grace does, and what it engenders. > > Grace is unmerited favor; it means that God gives you something, or does something for you, without your having in any way earned or deserved it. Certainly, Jesus dying on the cross for us was an act of grace. Now, in order to be saved, one must have faith in Christ. How does one acquire that faith? Through grace. God gives you the grace, free, to believe in Jesus Christ, and viola! you are saved----saved by your faith, which you got through grace. I think we’re pretty much on the same wavelength so far. > > Now, what about works? Well, as I said, everybody performs works. Even Satan performs works; (his happen to be bad works, but they are still works). If you are unsaved, your works are either bad (sins), or at the very least, neutral. How do you get to the point where you are performing good works? Or in other words, how do you get to the point where everything you do, you want to do for the glory of God, in praise of Him? > > The same way: through grace. God’s unmerited favor upon you—the same unmerited favor that allows you to be saved—also gives you the ability to perform works which are geared towards the glory of God, rather than sinful works which sadden Him and harm yourself. What this means is that before, you were spirtually dead, and your works were also dead, or bad. Once you have been saved, however, you are a new creation, and you have the gift of faith through grace; and through this same grace, you are now able to perform good works to God’s greater glory. Furthermore, through this same grace you now have the capability to want to perform good works to God’s greater glory, whereas before, you couldn’t have cared less. > > Going to Mass every week and going to confession every so often are works. But they are good works, rather than sinful ones; they are works you perform in order to please God, rather than displease Him. It was His grace that gave you the ability to want to go to Mass and confession in the first place; so, to answer your question at long last, no, going to Mass, church attendance, or confession does not eliminate the grace part. > > Grace is not a static condition----it is a force that provides you with the ability to do something, not just sit there and say, “I don’t have to go to church, and I don’t have to pray, or help my neighbor, or do anything else. I’ve been saved, so I can just sit here. I have grace, see?” But James says, “Show me your faith without works—and I will show you my faith by my works.” (James 2:18b.) He furthermore says that faith, without works, is dead. This brings to light an interesting concept: > > 1. Do you need faith to be saved? Yes. > 2. Is faith without works dead? Yes. > 3. Can you be saved with a dead faith? No. > 4. Must one, then, perform works in order to have a living faith, a faith which is necessary for salvation----and without those works, possess a dead faith which will not lead to salvation? What do you think? It would seem that the level of grace in an individual who does not perform good works is very low; such an individual is like one of the seeds scattered among the tares or by the side of the road----no roots. > > Finally, there are many scriptures that speak of the need for works; if no works are needed, why are these in the Bible? > James 2:24, “A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” > John 14:15, “If you love me, keep My commandments.” (What commandments? The whole Gospel: do good to others, love each other, pray, treat widows kindly, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, house the orphans----does anyone think these things do not constitute “works”?) > Matthew 19:16, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” > Matthew 28:20, “Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you.” > Matthew 8:21, “Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of My Father.” > Luke 6:46, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord’ but do not do what I command?” > > There are more, but these highlight the issue. Faith, activated by grace, in order to be alive, must have works. If you don’t perform good works, then your faith is dead, and ergo, you are in grave spiritual danger. Possessing grace and faith doesn’t mean you can just stand around and bask in the glow of God’s mercy----it means you gotta get out there and do something; something for God’s greater glory. Works do not cancel out grace; on the contrary, grace activates works. (I apologize for the length, but I wanted to post it verbatim, and not to link to it.) A couple of additional apposite quotes: “Faith without works is dead” and Jesus’s parable of the two sons (not the prodigal, the other one: “Which one did the will of his Father?” I find it very unproductive to discuss the question of sin here; a call to repentance of sin is not what will motivate the average Straight Dope poster. Bluntly, I feel you are digging a pit for yourself with your posts’ focus on sin. If I were called to discuss the doctrine of original sin, I’d say that, insofar as it means anything at all, whatever may have been the case in the past, we are born into a world of people who are largely focused with their own selves. There are obvious exceptions among non-Christians as well as the call to be focused on God that Christians are supposed to obey. (Far too many, IMHO, are most interested in their own salvation, and not on Him. But that’s an entire other debate.) Given that, each child, as he grows, comes to focus on his own needs and desires, and not on God. (A baby, helpless, is naturally solely concerned with his own welfare; this is not sinful any more than my inability to command mountains to move is.) In short, by your paradigm, he enters into a sinful world and becomes sinful. By my own, he is failing to put God at the focus of his life. Where I am going with this is that God’s grace takes you, just as you are (cue George Beverly Shea and backup choir here), and accepts you as his beloved child and his chosen instrument for what he wants you to do in your life. > [@](#): > > “He rewards good works sans faith with hell” – but how long lasting are ‘good works’ if separated from Christ? You can help the poor and hungry in your neighborhood for decades on end, but if you can’t also offer them nourishment for their souls, have you really helped them in the long run? I know that sounds harsh, but it’s a harsh reality. I do understand your point, and I believe most of the other people following this thread will grasp it: from the point of view that one’s soul is in the balance, other concerns become less than supreme. However, “Which of you, having a son, when he asks for bread, would give him a scorpion?” I would ask, “Which of you would give him a Bible and not bread?” Have you done anything for him if, when he was hungry, all you did was witness to him? True love feeds both body and soul. Regarding the Tao, your takeoff on the Star Wars metaphor did not sit well with me. This is a serious belief held by thoughtful people. C.S. Lewis illustrated the sensibleness of Christianity to intelligent people in one of his books by quoting passages from the Tao Te-Ching. I believe it was _The Abolition of Man_. Both the Lewis and the quotations from the Tao are worth your reading – and I presume you will not find Lewis as teaching heresy or false religion! Finally, I made a point to wade through bjOrn’s fractured syntax, and it was worth the read. He has a very valid point about personal images and not the reality behind them being what we’re discussing. Do, please, give it a read. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/146 "2000-08-30T01:06:06Z")
How does one hijack an already hijacked thread? > [@](#): > > If you are unsaved, your works are either bad (sins), or at the very least, neutral. **Poly** , do you believe that? It sounds to me as though it is impossible to do good w/o being saved. Not sure if I can accept that without a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/147 "2000-08-30T01:13:21Z")
Aaagh! Sorry; I read that post, which I thought spoke to the issues FoG has been raising quite well, and did not check it for detailed agreement with me. I think God is quite happy with what Phil and Peta, Gaudere, and a number of other folks I know who don’t believe in him are doing to make the world a better place to live. In that, I disagree with Wolseley. You may notice Wolseley is a Catholic, and a fairly devout and learned one. I suspect this is not going to be a critical problem for FoG but may be slightly offsetting. Thanks for the catch, Andros. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/148 "2000-08-30T01:16:55Z")
No worries. I figured you weren’t posting the good Cardinal’s words as your own. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/149 "2000-08-30T02:22:28Z")
I am curious as to everyone’s response to this quote from earlier in this page. It might have gotten missed in the zillions of posts I was making in a row, but I didn’t want it to get lost. While it doesn’t “prove” anything, I am curious how an atheist would try to explain these things away, or _if_ they would try to explain it away. Again, for those of you hung up on this, I’m not trying to “prove Christianity”, just trying to raise your eyebrows and cause you to take a second look. (PS Dr Lao I did see your brief comment on this but I’d love to hear more). I have a brand new story from today to tell in my next post, so stay tuned. > [@](#): > > I do have a few examples coming to mind off the top of my head … but of course, there’s no way I can prove any of this or give you specific stats. But here’s something to chew on at any rate: > > 1. In the early 80s a friend at my church did extensive research in our church on Christian families that were struggling financially. He found a 100% consistent pattern: those couples who did not tithe were the ones who _stayed_ in financial trouble year after year. Those who _did_ tithe would have troubles occasionally, but would receive counsel and get out of the trouble. This gives clear evidence of the financial curse you fall under when you don’t tithe, talked about in Malachi chapter 3. > > As an addendum to that, I almost forgot I have a personal testimony on this one, that just occurred this year! Ever since I was a child I have always tithed, simply because I was taught to do it and saw it in the Bible. It made sense, so I always did it. No big deal. > > I have also followed other financial principles from the Bible: for example, I’ve never been in debt (I do use a credit card but I pay it off monthly and never pay interest). I believe as a direct result of my obedience to God in these areas, I’ve always been very relaxed about money. I’ve always had enough, but never too much, and it’s just been something I’ve never had to think much about. God even dropped a wad of cash in my lap 1 1/2 years ago, and mere weeks later I had to buy a new car! I was able to pay for it in cash and stay out of debt. I believe God was honoring me for obeying Him. I know some of you will be skeptical, but that’s just how I see it. > > This seems off subject but it all ties together: earlier this year I began searching for a new church (brief aside: it was an amicable exit from my previous church and I felt God was calling me to switch to a new church – long story but that’s all you need to know for now). During the time I was searching, I decided I would keep tithing at my old church until I committed to going to a new one. > > Well, I kept intending to stop by my old church to drop my tithe check off, but one week, then two, then three, went by, and I kept forgetting or getting too busy. Then, all of a sudden, in mid-April, I was filling out my taxes and I realized I was in a _HUGE_ financial bind for the first time in my life. > > I had a tax bill that was twice as large as expected. My Visa bill was twice as large as expected. My savings was at it’s lowest point in a long time. And … it suddenly hit me … I was seven weeks behind on tithing. > > I remember when it hit me … call me crazy if you want … I actually _smiled_! Then I laughed!! It was entertaining to me even though I was in a serious situation! I was _watching_ the principles of God operate before my very eyes! For the _first_ time in my life I hadn’t tithed for an extended period of time … and for the _first_ time in my life, I was experiencing a financial crisis! > > Needless to say, as soon as I realized the root of the problem, I sent my tithe check off _first_ before doing anything else! It took me two months to dig out of the hole I got myself into, but I learned a valuable lesson. Don’t forget God’s principles! > > Needless to say, I’ve not missed a tithe since and don’t intend to again! > > That was longer than intended, but let’s move on to another example of God working consistantly. > > 1. The _MORE_ I think about it, the missions thing I already mentioned sticks out even more. It occurs to me that I’ve seen God help people raise money in _many_ different ministries at many different times. Back in the 80s, in a church where they _don’t_ believe God works miracles today, God was working miracles anyway! > > One story stands out in my mind. A female friend of mine was supposed to be going on a missions trip and needed a rather enormous sum of money. She raised a certain amount but still needed a specific large amount and was nowhere close to it. > > A man gave her a check for the exact amount she needed. Now, most people would think that this was God answering her prayer, but she felt uncomfortable receiving this money from this guy for some reason (I can’t recall why). So, believe it or not, she gave it _back_ to him, thanked him, and said she couldn’t take it. Within days, she obtained the _exact_ sum of money she needed a _SECOND_ time from a totally different source she felt comfortable with! That is one of my favorite stories of all time because it shows Godly character and God backing you up as well. > 3. Countless _little_ things: praying for a job, money to fix a car, etc etc. I can point to dozens of cases where God came through for people. And please don’t misunderstand … God required these people to do their part. God _DOESNT_ respond if you sit back and expect Him to do everything. If you’re looking for a job, you have to create a resume and go look for one! But God “fills in the gaps” as it were, many, many times. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/150 "2000-08-30T02:38:41Z")
Just today I heard a story from my new believer friend I’ve mentioned several times on this board. She’s the one who came to Christ just a few months ago and, without prompting or being told it was “the right thing to do”, stopped living with her boyfriend, started attending church and reading the Bible, and started a healthy walk with Christ. I almost didn’t think to share this story because, again, it’s not exactly unusual to see God do this kind of thing. But it suddenly occurred to me that you guys _never_ hear about this stuff! Let me issue my disclaimer again: I’m not trying in any way, shape, or form to “prove” God to any of you. It wouldn’t work if I was because all you have to do is say “I don’t believe you!” I guess what I’m curious about is what your reaction _is_ to such a story. Is it just a coincidence? If this kind of thing happens all the time, are the _all_ coincidences? Anyway, here’s the story: My friend told me today that she was at her fiance’s house (she has started a new, healthy dating relationship with a Godly man and they are getting married in a few months!) She had just heard a teaching at her church about the value of praying over every room in your house for God’s blessing and anointing. She prayed over every house in the room and everything seemed to go smoothly until she reached the attic. As soon as she walked in the attic, she felt an oppressive spirit come over her. What’s comical is she’s _not_ used to this stuff and it freaked her out! She kept going through the attic and the _rest_ of the attic was totally fine. There was just _one_ spot near the entrance that she felt an incredible spiritual oppression. She brought her fiance’ up and asked if he knew if anything occult oriented or something was in the attic. As far as he knew, there wasn’t anything. They looked through boxes near the door and found nothing objectionable. Then her finance’ thought of something. He pulled away the insulation from the ceiling and said there was a place up here that his son years ago used to store stuff. He pulled away the insulation and the boards and they looked inside. And inside was a 1979 issue of Playboy magazine. To make a long story short they grabbed the magazine, put it in the fireplace, and she completed praying a blessing over the house, including the attic. But the point is - obviously she had no clue it was there, but God did and was trying to alert her to the danger. Now, is this the “evidence” that some of you are looking for (particularly you Dr. Lao)? I would wager that you could hear dozens upon dozens of stories like this, and even _believe_ they were all true, and it would not change your minds. Which begs the question: are any of you truly open to the possibility of God, or are you all passionately determined to _not_ believe in Him no matter what is shown to you? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/151 "2000-08-30T02:58:34Z")
> [@](#): > > He found a 100% consistent pattern: those couples who did not tithe were the ones who _stayed_ in financial trouble year after year. I’ll be the first to point out the obvious–perhaps they didn’t tithe because they were in financial trouble. I would hope that if it came down to giving 10% to the church or paying the heat bill, God would understand. Someone will come along and provide the name of this fallacy, I’m sure. > [@](#): > > Those who _did_ tithe would have troubles occasionally, but would receive counsel and get out of the trouble. Again, maybe they were able to tithe because they weren’t in constant financial trouble. I would also say that those who pay enough attention to their income to give exactly 10% of it to the church are probably better about handling their finances than others. > [@](#): > > This gives clear evidence of the financial curse you fall under when you don’t tithe, talked about in Malachi chapter 3. How do you explain me, then? I have never tithed, nor has anyone in my family. We have never had any problems with money. In fact, my med school friends are always impressed at how well I live on our meager stipend. (My answer–don’t waste money on things you don’t want.) Then there’s a friend of mine who is probably the strongest Christian I know. She tithes meticulously. She is always–and I mean always–having problems with money. As a wise man once said, “The God I believe in isn’t short of cash, mister.” Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/152 "2000-08-30T03:06:45Z")
**m3** , your post seems pretty all-conclusive so I don’t really have any response. I’m sorry you feel so strongly about God the way you do and I hope you’ll be open to Him revealing Himself to you in a different way someday. **bj0rn** , interesting post on the conscience! It’s a great subject to throw into the debate. I was following you pretty clearly until this point: > [@](#): > > which basically means we created god in our image, we wrote the bible, we interpeted the commandments, we did it all… we may be wrong, and we may be right. it all depends on who is viewing the subject. there is no right or wrong about it, someone is always wrong about it and someone is always right about it. > > if we have a clear conscience we enjoy the fruits of it in our heaven. You seem to be saying that there’s not an absolute truth in the matter, that everything’s a matter of our own personal conscience, and as long as we obey that we’ll be okay (please correct me if I’m wrong). While it sounds good I’m afraid there’s a hole or two in the argument. For example, what if I have a clear conscience about killing people? Or committing adultery? Sincerely, what if I think it’s totally okay to sleep with anyone’s wife I want to, or blow anyone away I feel like? Will I ‘enjoy the fruits of it in my heaven’? Just something to think about. **GLWasteful** commented on this quote of mine: > [@](#): > > I also was getting at this: many think mistakenly that if their good outweights their bad, God will bring them into heaven. Another point I was trying to make is that those who live by this philosophy and never turn to Christ will find out at the end of their life that no amount of good they do can ever pay for the sins they’ve committed. Only Christ can do that. Your response: > [@](#): > > Yeah, I know that it wasn’t directed toward me, but c’mon, FoG, what about the Jews? C’mon, GLWasteful, what about **you**? You know what, you don’t **have** to have any clue how God feel about the Jews. You also don’t have to have any clue how God feels about people who’ve never heard the gospel, or who believe in other religions. All **you** have to know about is how God relates to **you**. I bring this up because I constantly see these side stepping issues raised by people. Whether you get a satisfactory answer to your question or not, how does it affect you personally? Not a whit! (Unless you are Jewish, in which case I’m wrong!) I know you probably won’t like this comment I’m making, but I get tired of seeing the real issue avoided over and over. As for the question you raised … what about the Jews? They are “God’s chosen people” but they are also just people and they have to get saved too. The Bible in the N.T. in particular makes this plain dozens of times. > [@](#): > > If these miracles that you have spoken of really happened, then it would have been at least mentioned by a major news outlet. Well we’re at a stalemate then because I say differently. As for “proof”, as I said before: study Charisma articles on the web from the past few years, look for ‘Church Around the World’ news bulletins, Forerunner newspaper (80s), People of Destiny Mag (80s), etc. The best way to see it of all – go to a church that believes in this stuff for several months. I won’t hold my breath (but I guess you might surprise me since you said you’d read ‘She Said Yes’). **Polycarp** , thanks for posting that Wolseley post! It was interesting, although I too didn’t agree with every word it made some good points. > [@](#): > > I find it very unproductive to discuss the question of sin here; a call to repentance of sin is not what will motivate the average Straight Dope poster. Bluntly, I feel you are digging a pit for yourself with your posts’ focus on sin. Well, I’m primarily responding to questions being raised. And this is not intended to be a “call to repentance from sin” in any way shape or form. It’s a discussion _about_ sin and it’s effect, for sure. As for me “digging a pit”, tell me why you feel this way Poly. I’m merely trying to explain one aspect of human existence that explains our need for Christ. I said: > [@](#): > > You can help the poor and hungry in your neighborhood for decades on end, but if you can’t also offer them nourishment for their souls, have you really helped them in the long run? You responded: > [@](#): > > Have you done anything for him if, when he was hungry, all you did was witness to him? True love feeds both body and soul. I agree completely. _Both_ are extremely important. If you leave _either_ one out, you’re in trouble. > [@](#): > > Regarding the Tao, your takeoff on the Star Wars metaphor did not sit well with me. This is a serious belief held by thoughtful people. I’m sorry Polycarp, but it was not intended to make fun of Taoism (or whatever it’s called). I just saw Star Wars mentioned and couldn’t resist spoofing one of my all time favorite movies! It was _intended_ to be a silly Star Wars comment, not any kind of put down of Taoism. Sorry you took it that way. That’s all for now folks. G’night :). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/153 "2000-08-30T03:29:53Z")
**FoG** , I was still thinking about free will and sin, but since you asked I’ll give you my impression of your examples. > [@](#): > > 1. In the early 80s a friend at my church did extensive research in our church on Christian families that were struggling financially. He found a 100% consistent pattern: those couples who did not tithe were the ones who _stayed_ in financial trouble year after year. Those who _did_ tithe would have troubles occasionally, but would receive counsel and get out of the trouble. This gives clear evidence of the financial curse you fall under when you don’t tithe, talked about in Malachi chapter 3. I think you might be jumping to conclusions here. Assuming that the methodology was sound and data was accurate, I can think of a more likely explanation. People who are poor with money or simply don’t earn much money often struggle with the basic needs of living. Any expenditure that is not directly related to survival. These people rarely are able to save enough to lift themselves out of poverty. Therefore they can’t afford to tithe and always have finacial trouble. People who earn a decent wage and save well can afford to tithe consistantly. Based on the information you gave, I think this to be the most likely situation. Essentially, no tithing doesn’t cause a poor financial situation, a poor financial situation causes no tithing. I would need more information to come to another conclusion. Specificlly, how did your friend differentiate between those who were in trouble financially habitually and those who only had occasional trouble? If my reasoning isn’t to your liking, I can also fall back on personal experience. My family (my parents and brothers, I’m 21 and unmarried and I still consider them to be my family) has never belonged to a church and never tithed a cent to my knowledge. We, however, have never had a major financial crises. I credit my father’s and mother’s frugalness, careful planning, and hard work for putting our family on solid financial ground. We are quite well off now, thanks to them. As for your personal examples they are interesting, but not conclusive of anything by themselves. I think I’d to know exactly how God did this, > [@](#): > > God even dropped a wad of cash in my lap 1 1/2 years ago… before I can comment on it further. Your second example is more intriguing. > [@](#): > > …I realized I was in a _HUGE_ financial bind for the first time in my life. > > I had a tax bill that was twice as large as expected. My Visa bill was twice as large as expected. My savings was at it’s lowest point in a long time. And … it suddenly hit me … I was seven weeks behind on tithing…I sent my tithe check off _first_ before doing anything else! It took me two months to dig out of the hole I got myself into, but I learned a valuable lesson. If you could show more examples of people who were in good financial standing until they stopped tithing, then everything went to hell (so to speak ;)), and/or people who were and bad financial standing before they started tithing, and everything turned around for them when they started. Better than that even, if you could show that people who tithe in cycles have financial ups and downs that match those cycles. Chew on that **FriendofGod** , more on the way. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/154 "2000-08-30T03:58:26Z")
I thought you’d be interested in this one! I know you have more to say, but I saw your first post and I want to go ahead and respond. First, regarding both your and **DoctorJ’s** statements, I should have clarified two points: 1. This is one area where I’ve seen things work differently between believers and nonbelievers. I think there are many biblical financial principles that benefit nonbelievers, but apparently tithing is something that only applies to belivers. This makes sense because a nonbeliever owns their own money. For a believer, all of our money belongs to God, and tithing is a portion of that money that literally belongs to God. The curse comes from essentially stealing the money from God and keeping it for yourself. But if you’re not a believer, the money is actually all yours and doesn’t belong to God. 2. Regarding **DoctorJ’s** story about his Christian friend, I should have also clarified that if tithing is the **only** financial principle you follow, you can still find yourself in trouble. What I’ve usually seen as a pattern is someone beings tithing purely on faith and one of the first blessings God pours out is teaching them practical money issues: savings accounts, being debt-free, not being an impulsive buyer, etc. As for your commentary of the ‘tithing analysis’ my friend did years ago, keep reading … You said: > [@](#): > > If you could show more examples of people who were in good financial standing until they stopped tithing, then everything went to hell (so to speak), and/or people who were and bad financial standing before they started tithing, and everything turned around for them when they started. I can’t think of any specific ones that stand out in my mind, but I can tell you generally that over the past 20 years I have seen _countless_ believers who were struggling financially on a regular basis, and felt that this was justification to not tithe. Actually, they eventually realized it _wasn’t_ justification and was, in fact, the root of the problem, but didn’t have the faith to break out. It was a very real struggle for several people over the years. Those that _finally_ broke free and began tithing on pure faith (one person I recall had to, in fact, choose between tithing and paying a bill) began seeing their financial house restored to good order. It was the _first_ step, but God _always_ backed them up one way or another. I have personally never seen an exception. One example that is coming to mind, come to think of it, is one of my two former roommates from Atlanta (not the ex-gay guy, the other one). While we were roomies he never tithed and struggled mightily with it. He would start and stop. He would try tithing a little and receive a little of God’s blessing, but then would get scared and stop. I felt sympathy for him… he was like Peter, trying to walk on the water but then starting to sink! Just in the past month, the guy phoned me and we had a good chat. He told me he has finally gotten the tithing thing down and is seeing the rewards of God in his life. God is truly very generous to those who obey this sometimes hard principle. Again, one of the first blessings is showing you _other_ financial principles that will help keep your financial house in order. So I’m afraid the cause’n’effect example you gave earlier doesn’t work in this situation, at least as far as what I’ve seen over the years. It’s not that those who are well off tithe and those who aren’t dont. It’s that those who tithe _regardless_ of their financial situation see the beginnings of God’s financial blessings. Regarding “God dropping a wad of cash in my lap”, basically my mom received a large sum of money. She and her brother sold a business that their family had owned for decades. She decided that rather than waiting until she was gone to pass on some of it to me and my brother, she would go ahead and do it now. She gave my brother and I an equally large sum of money! I was blown away and didn’t know why God was trusting me with this much cash! After my church got a rather _large_ tithe ;), I gave an extra donation to our building fund, and then let the rest sit in a savings account while I prayed about what to do. Less than 3 months later, I had to buy a new car (my old one, which I’d had since 1994, finally conked out). I was able to find a car that I could pay cash for and _just_ have enough left over to still have a decent savings account. I truly belive God was honoring my obedience in the debt issue over the years! Okay that’s all for now … anxiously awaiting your next post Dr. L! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/155 "2000-08-30T04:28:31Z")
D’oh! I thought my first post was so long that I needed a second, it however pales in size to **FoG** ’s mammoth multi-part post. Oh, well…I swear it looked big when I was writting it. On to example two: > [@](#): > > One story stands out in my mind. A female friend of mine was supposed to be going on a missions trip and needed a rather enormous sum of money. She raised a certain amount but still needed a specific large amount and was nowhere close to it. I would venture that it stands out in your mind because of the seemingly mysterous way it occurred. A query: Did you witness all the events as they transpired? As in did she tell you she was short of money, then told you how much she was short by, then you saw the first check come for exactly that amount, she rejects it then you saw the second check come. I doubt that you did. It is more likely that you heard about the event after everything already happened. Am I right? Things often seem more mysteryous when one person witnesses them then tries to relay them to others. And if it did happen exactly as she described, think of all the stories about how no mysteryous circumstances occurred you didn’t hear about. It is like a consumer product of some kind. Often the comment departments at corporations recieve comments from consumers that are 90% negative. They don’t assume that 90% of the purchusers are dissatisfied. The people who are satisfied don’t make calls the the manufactuer because they don’t notice that the product works. They expect it to work and it does, so they forget about it. People notice the product when it fails to work, so they call to complain. When people need God to come through for them, and he doesn’t, they don’t notice it. When they need him and he does seem to come through, they store it away as a hit, but they forget about the misses. An accurate record of hits and misses will show whether I’m right or you’re right. If the hits and misses work out to be the same as chance would dictate, then I’m right. If the hits occur with an unexplanable (other than the people had faith in God) frequency, then you are right. Unfortunatly, insufficient evidence is available to make a conclusion. Example 3 follows under this as well. Sometimes things go your way and sometimes they don’t. If you see the things that go your way as God’s work and ignore the things that don’t God seems more plausible. I mean you aren’t say, **FoG** that when you ask God to do something for you he always gives you exactly what you want, are you? Your last example, the woman, the oppresive spirit, and the playboy. First off, she was moving around a strange house and she goes into the attic. Don’t you think a sense of foreboding is natural? Second, I could probably come to your house claim to feel this spirit and find something to justify it. Last, you are hearing this second hand, who knows how the story changed as the man and woman discussed it among themselves or with others. I’m not saying they are lying on purpose, but memories have a tendency to drift with time, especially memories of unusual events. > [@](#): > > I would wager that you could hear dozens upon dozens of stories like this, and even _believe_ they were all true, and it would not change your minds. Probably > [@](#): > > Which begs the question: are any of you truly open to the possibility of God, or are you all passionately determined to _not_ believe in Him no matter what is shown to you? To be honest, **FoG** this got me kind of angry. Your “evidence” of second hand stories wouldn’t be allowed in court, and you want my faith to rest on them? And then you accuse me of being closed minded for not accepting them? I know how stories mutate and change over time;people remember things wrong, chronology is mismatched, and then people reenforce those mistakes by talking with others who interpret them the same way. Eye witnesses are the most unreliable evidence at a trial, because they have gaps in their memory and they talk to the police about it. Facts are much more solid. I gave you some examples of how God could be proven to me in this and the last post through the use of facts. That is the evidence I am talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/156 "2000-08-30T05:14:20Z")
> [@](#): > > When they need him and he does seem to come through, they store it away as a hit, but they forget about the misses. An accurate record of hits and misses will show whether I’m right or you’re right. Well, since we’ve opened up the floor to anecdotal evidence, here’s mine: When I was young I was very interested in religion, magic, omens and rituals. In an attempt to make such predictions and influences on the future more reliable, I watched carefully for happenings that could be “omens” and actions of my own that might be somehow responsible for my good or bad luck later (like karma). So if I saw a bluejay and had a bad day a couple times, I would assume bluejays might be bad luck and start keeping track of sighting of bluejays v. bad days. I kept careful count of good and bad omens and good and bad karma acts of my own–_elaborate_ tally-marks for _months or years_–but you know…the more I paid attention, the less accurate the omens/karma seemed to become as predictors. I kept close tabs on any “forebodings” of the future, so I would know if I had an accurate prediction, but my careful monitoring only showed to me that I had dozens of false alarms for every one that was true. I tried ritual, offerings to the tree spirits (I _was_ young 😛 ) and while a few coincidences at first gave me hope that I was actually influencing the future, when I seriously attempted to track the results, I realized any correlation was no more than happenstance. Yet another budding mystic falls before the scientific method. 😉 I think I was unusual in my fervent desire to “figure out” these things that I wanted very much to believe in, and in my careful monitoring of events. But you know, even though I don’t believe in that stuff, I think the desire to have some way to mystically influence the future is very strong in most of us. I still pick up heads-up pennies (and only heads-up; the tails-up ones are bad luck, doncha know) and I still want my good deeds to somehow bring me good luck–even though all the evidence says it’s bunk. When I went to Lincoln Park to give blood a couple weekends ago, I was concerned that my extremely sick cat would die while I was gone. “Oh, well, that just wouldn’t be _fair_–I shouldn’t have horrible things happen when I am trying to do something good. In fact, she should get better since I am doing good things!” I thought, although I knew my giving blood had nothing to do with the health of my cat. But I really, really want life to be fair, to be rewarded when I do good things, although all the evidence of my life tells me things don’t work that way. But in fact, when I got back, my cat was not dead, and was a little better. Now, if I believed in karma, I would see that as proof–but I honestly think it was no more than happenstance. Similarly, I believe that FoG, had _his_ sick cat recovered a little after he gave a tithe to the church, he would attribute it to his tithing. We so want to have some way to make sure our life turns out all right. But if you genuinely want to prove that an action can influence unrelated future events, you need a solid scientific study, not anecdotes. If I had never tried so hard to use statistics and careful records to determine the validity of omens and “feelings” as predictors, I would likely have never figured out at such a young age that they simply didn’t work–I would have remembered the times they did work, and forgotten the times they didn’t. I was extremely disappointed when the evidence showed that omens, psychic powers, karma, ritual and praise of spirits didn’t work…but I couldn’t deny the hard facts once I seriously and methodically gathered them. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/157 "2000-08-30T05:37:32Z")
… as always I enjoyed your post. > [@](#): > > Did you witness all the events as they transpired? As in did she tell you she was short of money, then told you how much she was short by, then you saw the first check come for exactly that amount, she rejects it then you saw the second check come. I doubt that you did. It is more likely that you heard about the event after everything already happened. Am I right? Yes, you are right, she shared the story in our Sunday School class the week after it happened. But read on … > [@](#): > > And if it did happen exactly as she described, think of all the stories about how no mysteryous circumstances occurred you didn’t hear about . . . When people need God to come through for them, and he doesn’t, they don’t notice it. When they need him and he does seem to come through, they store it away as a hit, but they forget about the misses. Actually, in the context I’ve lived in for over 20 years, believe it or not, this is incorrect. Christians are _very_ vocal when it appears that God isn’t answering their prayers! We’ve had entire Bible studies on nothing but this entire subject. Solid, born-again Christians aren’t always happy with God. Sometimes our prayers seem to be “hitting the ceiling” as we call it, and if we don’t know why immediately some of us get ticked off at God! I should point out that those who are mad at God usually know it’s a losing battle, that they have a bad attitude, and need to chill out. To answer your question, no God does not “always gives you exactly what you want”. As they say, God always _answers_ prayer, but His answer could be “Yes, No, or Wait a While”. Sometimes it’s not always apparent _why_. But I have this to say as well … I have heard _dozens_ of testimonies of how God used trials and tribulations in Christian’s lives to strengthen their faith and character in ways that would not be possible otherwise. I myself can point to times like that in my life. Here’s one possibility right off the bat: suppose someone is the rare exception who _doesn’t_ raise the funds to go on that missions trip. It is fully, entirely possible that God didn’t _want_ them to go on it! This is God’s way of “shutting the door” as it were. I am recalling a few examples of this type of thing but they are fuzzy. But the pattern is similar: doubt, frustration with God, calming down, praying and trying to hear God, finally hearing God, walking in rest. And _then_, usually, I’ve seen very obvious reasons why God didn’t _seem_ to come through for the person. In fact, God wasn’t “letting the person down”, He just had different plans. > [@](#): > > First off, she was moving around a strange house and she goes into the attic. Don’t you think a sense of foreboding is natural? Why? But even if it was, she told me that she walked _around_ the attic and felt nothing. When she went to the one particular _spot_, that’s when she felt the oppressive spirit. > [@](#): > > Second, I could probably come to your house claim to feel this spirit and find something to justify it. But you are, I assume, talking about just “saying” you feel something as opposed to actually feeling something. If you are trying to make something happen, sure you can twist just about anything. But this is a wide-eyed, new in the Lord woman who’s not trying to convince anyone. She didn’t even know I was sharing this on this board. She sure was not trying to convince _me_ cuz I’ve heard dozens of things like this and she knew it. She actually told me because it was the first time _she_ has encountered something like this! It’s all new to her and quite exciting! > [@](#): > > Last, you are hearing this second hand, who knows how the story changed as the man and woman discussed it among themselves or with others. I’m not saying they are lying on purpose, but memories have a tendency to drift with time, especially memories of unusual events. This is a story she just told me today about something that just happened last night. > [@](#): > > To be honest, FoG this got me kind of angry. Your “evidence” of second hand stories wouldn’t be allowed in court, and you want my faith to rest on them? And then you accuse me of being closed minded for not accepting them? Well, I’m sorry for making you angry. I didn’t intend to and now that I re-read what I said, I can see how you took it that way. I guess it’s frustrating for someone like me to realize that even though God reveals Himself in dozens upon dozens of little ways like this, if you _really_ want to you can find some kind of explanation that satisfies you if you don’t want to believe in God (“you” in the corporate sense). I don’t expect you to take what I’m saying as clear-cut evidence that God exists, but I would hope that it would at least cause you to take a second glance and consider the possibility that He might exist. I guess what I’d say is this. Every point I’ve made has been given a counter-point to explain it away, one way or another. From your worldview perspective, I suppose each of them might be possible. Is there any part of you that’s willing to consider the **possibility** that my explanation might actually be correct? ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/158 "2000-08-30T07:58:04Z")
FoG: > [@](#): > > But even if it was, she told me that she walked _around_ the attic and felt nothing. When she went to the one particular _spot_, that’s when she felt the oppressive spirit. I think it’s likely that the kid left some trace of his covert activities in that one particular _spot_ that tipped the woman off. Maybe he had some graffiti on the wall? A half-eaten bag of potato chips? I’m not trying to be crude, but given the nature of the hidden magazine, maybe the woman was tipped off by some mysterious stains on the floor or a pile of discarded Kleenex. > [@](#): > > To answer your question, no God does not “always gives you exactly what you want”. As they say, God always _answers_ prayer, but His answer could be “Yes, No, or Wait a While”. So basically, if god answers your prayer, he’s answered your prayer. If he doesn’t answer it, he’s answered it. Something is something and nothing is something. No matter what happens: Hallelujah! Proof! > [@](#): > > Is there any part of you that’s willing to consider the possibility that my explanation might actually be correct? Is there any part of you that’s willing to consider the possibility that your explanation might actually be wrong? > [@](#): > > I guess it’s frustrating for someone like me to realize that even though God reveals Himself in dozens upon dozens of little ways like this, if you _really_ want to you can find some kind of explanation that satisfies you if you don’t want to believe in God (“you” in the corporate sense). The examples you’ve given are convincing- if you already believe in god, that is. If you already believe, personal anecdotes and such offer reinforcement of an already-established belief. Such “evidence” is not strong enough to sway a nonbeliever, unless said nonbeliever has extremely poor critical thinking skills. It’s also a bit insulting to accuse all nonbelievers of “not wanting to” believe in god. In your worldview, I’m sure anyone who doesn’t accept the gospel is being selfish and stubborn, and possibly deluded by Satan. The truth is, though certainly a few atheists would really prefer that god is nonexistant, many atheists would _love_ to believe in god. Many have searched for god. Many (myself included) were Christians in the past. No, most atheists cannot bring themselves to believe because we value the search for truth, and we value honesty. It’s dishonest to believe in something just because you want it to be so or because you want to get to heaven or avoid hell. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/159 "2000-08-30T10:59:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll be the first to point out the obvious–perhaps they didn’t tithe because they were in financial trouble. I would hope that if it came down to giving 10% to the church or paying the heat bill, God would understand. > > Someone will come along and provide the name of this fallacy, I’m sure. [Joint Effect](http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/joint.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005/160 "2000-08-30T12:48:56Z")
FoG, I am willing to accept any real evidence(NOT stories out of a Christian magazine, NOT "My friend told me about…"stories) that point towards or against the existance of your god _or anyone else’s version of a god_. But you seem to say that any evidence against your god is false, and that anything under the sun is evidence for it. If I make a conclusion about anything, then only accept that evidence which supports my conclusion, I am wrong. NOT spiritually guided. NOT a follower of the T_R_U_T_H\*. _WRONG_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-ii/30005.md?page=9)