# What Would It Take to Prove God's Existence to You? Part III **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2000, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480 "2000-08-31T13:39:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/21 "2000-09-01T12:57:58Z")
Lib, could you just once ignore misspellings and hurt feelings, and maybe actually _answer the poor man’s question?_ I’m not saying don’t comment on his style of writing, but answer him also. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/22 "2000-09-01T13:01:07Z")
**Dr Lao** > [@](#): > > I don’t understand this, but I suspect that is part of the problem. I seen and experienced a lot of things, nothing has jumped out at me as being something only God could be. You are on your own moral journey. Your consciousness is a closed reference frame, as is mine. We cannot experience one another’s. Whatever might eventually happen to you simply has not happened _yet_ from the perspective of your reference frame. “You never know what’s around the corner.” — Lib’s sainted mother. From [Reality](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=702432#post702432), reprinted here for your convenience: ## quote: ## It seems to me that many people are a bit too attached to their axioms. Agreed! I learned that very thing about myself only recently, thanks mostly to Spiritus Mundi. The science epistemology is of great interest nowadays because of its ability to make rather mundane atomic groupings into rather spectacular atomic groupings (the technology end), as well as its ability to make itself repeatable (the experimentation end). The former, the technology, is merely quaint, and is no different metaphysically from the miracle epistemology. But the latter is more irritating to most theistic apologists who react like deer in the headlights when atheists demand repeatability of their claims about God. “You say you did such-and-such and found God. Well, I did such-and-such, too, but I did not find God.” Frustrating. Until you recognize it for what it is, a distraction fallacy. You want repeatability about my experiences with God? Fine, then. **Be me.** Your measuring machines with their gauges afford you repeatability because if I make a machine the same way you made yours, it will behave the same way in the same circumstance. Your repeatability won’t work if I make a machine that is merely taxanomically similar to yours but fails in its design to do what yours does. If you are to find God (assuming such a desire), then you must do so using the hand dealt to you: your own consciousness, a reference frame that is closed to me and to everyone else. **Slythe, Kevals** As you wish. I will devote my next post to answering the gentleperson’s questions. Perhaps you might consider next time taking the same approach you advocate on behalf of hand-stabbing Atheists to hell-fire Christians whom you consider disrespectful and abrasive? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/23 "2000-09-01T13:08:32Z")
Libertarian, seriously, I’m a nice guy. I would do anything to help anyone and I am never rude to anyone usually even after they’ve gone above and beyond the call of duty to be extremely rude to me. I’ve been online since around 1991, starting out on local bulliten boards and over the years i’ve ran into alot of people (i mean ALOT) online that just think im a real rude person without getting to know me. I’ve never really had this happen in real life but i guess it’s just the way i word myself or something. Like i said, im not all that well-versed. I hope i havent pissed you off too bad. Im still waiting for anyone to answer any of my questions though. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/24 "2000-09-01T13:22:57Z")
Listen Lib, I’m a nice person, i really am, i would do anything I could to help anyone I met and I am rarely ever rude to anyone, even usually when they go above and beyond the call of duty to be rude to me. I’ve been online since around 1991 and through all those years ive had ALOT of people regard me just like you do before they get to know me. I guess like i said im just not a very well versed person, if you heard me say the same thing in person you would probably think totally differently about me. Sorry if i came off as rude and disrespectful to you, i honestly dont mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/25 "2000-09-01T13:24:08Z")
WHOOPS, i re-typed that because it didnt go through the first time, these boards really are screwy sometimes arent they? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/26 "2000-09-01T13:25:50Z")
**Cisco** > [@](#): > > “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” --Jesus > > Posted by Libertarian. This tells me one of two things. > > #1) This whole line is steaming horse-poo. > > or > > #2) Assuming it is true, none of you so-called christians have any faith at all. When was the last time one of you walked on water? I suppose it was when the hose blew out on our washing machine. > [@](#): > > Did you turn water to wine at your last party? I drink only very rarely, and the last time I did, wine was already available. > [@](#): > > Howabout that blind guy that lives down the street, why dont you go make him see? I would be satisfied to make _you_ see. > [@](#): > > And of course this is just child’s play, the quote says ‘he will do even greater things than these’. And how can you even compare the Panama Canal to Moses parting the Red Sea? By juxtaposing the analogous parts of speech. > [@](#): > > That is absolutely absurd. And what do you mean we have thouroughly bested God in turning living beings into salt? Surely you arent speaking of the atomic bomb. These are all fallible things created by man, how can they be compared to the divine miracles that supposedly took place in biblical times? Because they are both technologies. > [@](#): > > We are on the verge of creating living beings from dirt? Im not even going to guess what the hell you were talking about there… Little critters in test tubes. > [@](#): > > And while im making a Great Debate post (i swore I’d never do it…) And yet, nevertheless… > [@](#): > > I have another question for you bible thumpers. Call it a Hi-jack if you’d like, you dont have to read it. But you have insisted. (c.f. “did you even bother to read what i wrote?”) > [@](#): > > Here goes… > > Something that has always fucked with me about the bible is Exodus chapter 5. I’m not going to type out the whole chapter but those of you that are familiar with it, follow me for a minute. Basically what happens is Moses goes to the Pharaoh and says “Let my people go so they may hold a festival for the Lord in the desert.” Of course the Pharoah says No and Moses wigs out…propaganda propaganda…etc. Now how many of you would go to your boss at work and say “Boss i gotta take off for about three days, Tim the Dinosaur says that i have to go throw a party for him in the desert.”? I have insufficient data to speculate on how many would do that. > [@](#): > > I would bet my bottom dollar that NONE of you would say that. Oh. > [@](#): > > Why? Because your boss has never heard of Tim the Dinosaur much like the Pharaoh had no idea who God was. Not to mention your boss would assume you were a total nutcase and that you were no doubt going to go on a three day drug benge. And this is exactly what the Pharaoh does, OF COURSE he thinks they are crazy and of course he thinks they are lazy bums for wanting to take off for three days. Why is he made out to look like such an evil bastard for doing that? I don’t know. > [@](#): > > How many of you think that Pharaoh went to hell? Insufficient data. I don’t think of it either way. > [@](#): > > How many of you think he was given a fair chance at God? I think that is for God to say. > [@](#): > > Was God not directly opposed to him from the start? I don’t know. > [@](#): > > And why did God favor this little group of hebrews over the rest of the world? Maybe they were polite. > [@](#): > > What about all the Asians? Maybe they were mean. > [@](#): > > What about the rest of the world? According to Joseph Smith, He liked the Aztecs. > [@](#): > > And whats the deal with God being so murderous and vengeful in the old testament and all of a sudden he’s a peace loving hippie in the new testament? Hard to say from my perspective. I’m not a Bible Thumper. > [@](#): > > If anyone ever reads “Calvin and Hobbes”…the bible reminds me alot of “Calvin-ball” its a game that they play in which the rules are made up as they go along to suit themselves to the best advantage. > > Please point out any flaws in my logic here, these are questions im seriously asking and i would like answers to them. Thanks. The flaws in your logic? Oy veh. > [@](#): > > Yea ok, I realize you’re a very smart guy Libertarian and your English is no doubt better than mine but that does absolutely nothing to answer anything i asked. I may have sounded rude or arrogant when i asked those questions but i guess im just not a very well versed guy, I didnt mean to come off that way. But there was no reason for you to correct my usuage of the “‘or’ operator”. Thats just nit-picking and it seems to me like you did it to “raise yourself above me” because you couldnt answer any of my questions. I have another question too: Why do Christians avoid so many questions, change subjects and mumble off into some half asses answer so often? Funny. Pointing out false dilemmas and other fallacies are a hallmark of Atheists when they deal with Pascal’s Wager and Lewis’s Dichotomy. Maybe people see things however they intend to see them. > [@](#): > > Example: > > Me: Why dont we see miracles today as we did in the biblical times? > > Christian: blah blah… bleh bloo… bloo… blah… Some people do see them. > [@](#): > > actually thats not what i was saying at all…i said…ASSUMING THAT THE PASSAGE WAS TRUE, IT ONLY MEANT THAT NO “CHRISTIANS” HAVE TRUE FAITH…did you even bother to read what i wrote? Not really, and here’s why. I’m not who or what you think I am. I’m not a Bible Tumper. I am not qualified (as you can see) to answer your questions. Perhaps you could ask them of Friend of God. Lastly, > [@](#): > > Libertarian, seriously, I’m a nice guy. I would do anything to help anyone and I am never rude to anyone usually even after they’ve gone above and beyond the call of duty to be extremely rude to me. I’ve been online since around 1991, starting out on local bulliten boards and over the years i’ve ran into alot of people (i mean ALOT) online that just think im a real rude person without getting to know me. I’ve never really had this happen in real life but i guess it’s just the way i word myself or something. Like i said, im not all that well-versed. I hope i havent pissed you off too bad. Im still waiting for anyone to answer any of my questions though. Have you ever thought you stumbled onto Cousin Bill while on your vacation half-way around the world, only to find out that it was someone else? I suppose time will tell whether you get to know me for who I really am. After nearly a year, I am still trying to unpin myself from the god Slythe has pinned on me. Perhaps you will be more attuned. Hang around, and let’s see if we can be friends. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/27 "2000-09-01T14:57:12Z")
I know I wasn’t asked, but let me throw my ten cents in. First, on Old Testament exegeses of the “What was Pharaoh supposed to think?” school – I feel that the entire OT is an attempt to get a clearer understanding of God. Parts of it are therefore about as morally uplifting as your random Harlequin romance or Norse myth. Pharaoh was, in the view of the Hebrew writer, supposed to let the Hebrews go, because he was supposed to recognize that the Hebrew God was the one true god, to be obeyed at all costs. Am I defending this point of view? No. But you need to take it into account in reading the story. Did God love Pharaoh, and offer him salvation? On my view, yes, long afterwards. On the traditionalist view, I wouldn’t bet your last camel on it. Regarding miracles: Hey, it would be nice to be able to change the world at will to make it “better” in my opinion. The point is, **my opinion does not control.** The Christian, per se, has no more command of miracles than anybody else. He does have at his disposal God’s ability to pass a miracle when He wants one done. The trick is to know when it’s His will. I’ve only been the instrument for a couple in my life, and the subject of one. They were all “Miracles of Convergence” and would not stand up to skeptical scrutiny. But here are two: [li](Told before) In 1989 we met the cousin, who lived a half kilometer away, of a neighbor’s son. Both were in their mid-teens. My wife and I felt a very strong urge to befriend the cousin, and did so. A year later, I was at home (last day of a vacation week, my wife having returned to work) and suffered a heart attack. Onset of attack was just before 3:00 PM. Wife left work at 4:00, due to go to a rehearsal at church and stop at the grocery store before getting home about 6:30-7:00. Kid, in response to his own inner urging, stopped by just before 5:00, found me in severe pain but conscious, gray and in evident distress, ran and called the church, got my wife to rush home, and she got me to the hospital. I recovered in fairly good shape – another two hours would have either killed or incapacitated me. Coincidence? God’s hand at work? You be the judge – we all believe the latter.[/li][li]Five years later. In the interim, we had become informal foster parents to neighbor’s son, cousin, and cousin’s best friend. Cousin’s best friend has married neighbor’s daughter. All have grown up, started their own adult lives, remain in close contact and friendship. Daughter contacts us; marriage is very much on the rocks. Best friend is now my closest friend. We talk to both parties. I feel a sense of being _given_ what to say and do to help them through this. We play out a separation and reconciliation scene. I act in accord with what I’ve been “told” to do. Marriage is repaired and is now very strong. Subconscious gestalt of what will accomplish the ends I’m working for? “Word of knowledge” from God? I was sure asking Him for one.[/li] Like I said, I can see where any skeptic could see alternate explanations – I’ve posted a couple. But for me they were miracles. Slythe, while we’re calling people’s attention to things, I asked you for your insight into a Christian metaphor in the second post in this thread. I’m not trying to play conversion games with it; I sincerely want to know what you read into that story and how it fits with your expectations of evidence. (Obviously, I don’t expect you to buy the “spiritual vision” thing – but I’m sure there are alternate explanations of the story that you may have better insight into than I do, given our different perspectives.) ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/28 "2000-09-01T15:28:47Z")
**Poly** , I guess it all goes back to what **Lib** is always talking about when he talks about reference frames. Seeing a loving God at work in your life, you’re inclined to view those occurrences, and their outcomes, as miracles of His doing. I have a similar story, from just recently. Last Tuesday, I started a thread in the Pit relating the crappy week I was having. In it, I mentioned two things. One was that I suddenly had to replace all four tires on my car. As it happens, that same day, our bicycles were stolen. The amount of the renter’s insurance check covering the bikes was nearly exactly what we paid for the tires. Also, I had had to send my former landlord a **large** check for some carpet replacement costs. Yesterday, I received a bonus check at work which, when combined with a raise that kicked in on this week’s pay, was **nearly exactly double** what I sent my ex-landlord. You would probably see these as the “miracles of convergence” you discuss. I, not being a praying man 😉 , see them as fortuitous coincidences. It’s all in the reference frames, and I don’t think yours is any less valid than mine, or vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/29 "2000-09-01T15:38:35Z")
Okay, and thanks. Meanwhile, I’ll pray that God gives you and Peta, David and family, Slythe and family, and Gaudere many more “fortuitous concidences.” Not to prove anything, just because I love you and so does he. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/30 "2000-09-01T15:41:37Z")
**Phil** Great example! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2000, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/31 "2000-09-01T15:42:46Z")
And by the way, congratulations on all your good fortune! It could not happen to a greater guy! ---
**Author:** ![tbea925](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@tbea925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tbea925)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2000, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/32 "2000-09-02T01:15:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* If you seek David Copperfield, then David Copperfield is what you will find. If you seek Love, you will find God. \*\* What would I find if I was seeking Claudia Schiffer? Seriously though, to prove the existance of God would cost me my faith. That would be too great of a price. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2000, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/33 "2000-09-02T01:28:46Z")
Libertarian wrote: > [@](#): > > We do greater miracles today than Jesus ever did. We, too, part the seas, as in Panama and Egypt. Uh, I think a canal is kinda the “opposite” of parting the sea. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2000, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/34 "2000-09-02T01:34:29Z")
Polycarp wrote: > [@](#): > > Okay, and thanks. Meanwhile, I’ll pray that God gives you and Peta, David and family, Slythe and family, and Gaudere many more “fortuitous concidences.” Not to prove anything, just because I love you and so does he. 😉 Hmmm … “I am the Lord your God. I created your from the dust of the Earth. I hold the destiny of the Universe in my hands. And I hereby exercise my omnipotence to grant you … a check from your renter’s insurance.” Not a very _impressive_ god, is he? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2000, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/35 "2000-09-02T01:47:54Z")
Hey, omnipotence means he can handle the small stuff too! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2000, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/36 "2000-09-02T04:35:05Z")
Note to Libertarian-I’m sorry if there was a question you asked that I played cute word games with instead of answering. Mind repeating it? As far as the Christian metaphor in the second post goes-Polycarp, I believe that you don’t play conversion games with people and if I ever hinted as such, I apologize. The trouble with metaphors is, there happens to be one for every opinion and every occasion. As such, while they might be helpful in explaining an opinion, they are next to useless when it comes to finding fact, which is what I usually base my proof-seeking (see title of thread) on. Though I firmly believe that the OP of this thread was merely a deceptive ruse with the purpose of gathering unbelievers in one spot for the purpose of conversion, I will yet again answer it. If you want to prove to me that the god of the Bible exists, than show me the the god that appears in the Bible. The hand that writes, the great miracles, the burning bush, the angels, etc. Note that if a mere spiritual feeling were enough, any religion(and some movies) would suffice. You want to promote the best of the best when it comes to a god? _Show me!_ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2000, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/37 "2000-09-03T19:27:15Z")
Just a chuckle, sort of at slythe’s expense (though I think he’ll find it as funny as I do)… 🙂 > [@](#): > > Though I firmly believe that the OP of this thread was merely a deceptive ruse with the purpose of gathering unbelievers in one spot for the purpose of conversion… The OP of **this** thread was Gaudere. Now while it’s obvious to initiates that **she** is secretly in league with the theists to promote drive-by conversions, I didn’t think you moderators were making that sort of thing public. 😉 Now, the OP of the **first** thread… There you may have a point. Although from my experience of FoG, he does not realize how annoying to you and others who are not activist Christians his posting style is/was, and was sincerely interested in finding out what people expected by way of proof – with the hope he could then dredge out that proof and lead people to Christ based on it, I’m sure. But honestly, given his beliefs and motives, isn’t that a reasonable thing for him to want to do? (That’s rhetorical, and I’m not asking whether it’s annoying, or futile – just whether you can grasp and accept his motives.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2000, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480/38 "2000-09-03T23:07:30Z")
Laugh at _me_, will ya? 🙂 You are entirely right, of course-I was refering to the first OP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you-part-iii/31480.md?page=1)