# What Would It Take to Prove God's Existence to You? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2000, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498 "2000-08-08T01:01:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/221 "2000-08-17T20:45:56Z")
FofG (on page 2) said: …5. It would take observing the life of a strong Christian. … For me personally, the _ONE_ _THING_ that I’ve ever seen in my life that convinced a skeptic of not only God’s existence but God’s _LOVE_ for them … was # 5. * * * I have a friend who tells me that I am one of the most Christian people he knows… this is based (he says)on MY behaviors, helping others less fortunate than myself,and treating others in a Christian manner, things like that. I am an Atheist. He knows this. He is a former Youth Pastor, who lost his job (and a good portion of his faith) when his wife had an affair with another man, left him, and filed for divorce. His church in response fired him, as divorce is frowned upon. Now, HE didn’t file for the divorce, he still loved his wife. Once, while the divorce was still in process, he was saying nightly prayers, via phone, with his kids. One of them said “…and God, please help Mommy and Daddy get back together again.” He said “Amen.” The next week he was charged with mental child abuse, as, since he was a Youth Pastor, he knows that ‘amen’ means ‘let it be so’. So he was ‘deliberately falsing raising his children’s expectations of a reconciliation.’ He spent 10 days in jail. Sounds like God answered his prayers real well, doesn’t it? Personal belief: All you need to know (and do) to get into Heaven: John 3:16. It’s all there. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/222 "2000-08-17T20:55:55Z")
Everything about that story of the former youth pastor seems fishy but plausable, right until it comes to a point which sounds absolutely insane: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lawoot \* > > **Once, while the divorce was still in process, he was saying nightly prayers, via phone, with his kids. One of them said “…and God, please help Mommy and Daddy get back together again.” He said “Amen.” The next week he was charged with mental child abuse, as, since he was a Youth Pastor, he knows that ‘amen’ means ‘let it be so’. So he was ‘deliberately falsing raising his children’s expectations of a reconciliation.’ He spent 10 days in jail.** I would definitely need a cite for this, as it screams “anti-God urban legend” so loudly, I had to turn my computer speakers down lest they blow up. * * * Yer pal, Satan [sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Four months, one week, one day, 18 hours, 54 minutes and 25 seconds. 5231 cigarettes not smoked, saving $653.94. Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 3 hours, 55 minutes.[/sub] **_"Satan is not an unattractive person."_-Drain Bead** [sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Modian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Modian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/223 "2000-08-17T21:22:51Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s the void. eh? Because I found the idea totally implausible and rejected it? ---
**Author:** ![Modian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Modian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/224 "2000-08-17T21:24:52Z")
That must be one of the cryptic replies people were accusing you of earlier, cause it makes no sense to me. How is that the void? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/225 "2000-08-17T21:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## There’s the void. > > eh? Because I found the idea totally implausible and rejected it? It was _my_ void. I wasted years and years and years rejecting totally implausible ideas. As a recovering I[sup]2[/sup]R (Implausible Idea Rejector), I can say that I probably rejected six or seven implausible ideas before breakfast on my worst days. Recently, I was presented with the idea that Atheists could be morally upstanding and loving. The loss I would have suffered had I clung to my old ways is inestimable. There are many many many epistemologies, my friend. > [@](#): > > That must be one of the cryptic replies people were accusing you of earlier, cause it makes no sense to me. Regrettably or otherwise, it is my preferred means to communicate. I don’t like preaching to people, so I guess I figure that I can say what I feel, and if they don’t know what I mean, they’ll ask if they’re interested. If they’re not interested, I won’t have taken much of their time. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/226 "2000-08-17T22:24:55Z")
Huh! I had taken it to mean the void that Modian’s mother alleged was in him for having rejected his Christian heritage. And was a bit surprised to read Lib. being judgmental in matters faith-oriented…while he can and does post some pretty strong allegations in the politico-economic arena, he is not in my experience inclined to pass judgment on another’s religious beliefs or lack thereof. I’m pleased to see that he meant a “void” in himself! Which just goes to prove Straight Dope Posting Rule #232: If you make a pithy remark, somebody is bound to get pithed off about it! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/227 "2000-08-17T23:16:21Z")
I would personally have no trouble believing in an account of a miracle with circumstantial evidence that stood up under reasonable skeptical scrutiny. But, like others, I find the accounts lacking in detail. In my experience, most “miracles” have been what have been called “Miracles of Convergence” where (IMHO) God’s providential hand brings about a less-than-probable confluence of events to positively affect someone’s life, health, etc. Was it a miracle that (hypothetical situation!) as the driver of a car hit by a tractor-trailer suffered probably-mortal injuries, the only doctor to live within 30 miles happened to be driving by and applied his medical expertise to save the driver’s life? That’s a “take it on faith” issue; I would; presumably a more skeptical person would not. However, I do have one circumstantial datum to bring to the “miracle reports” tangent this thread has routed itself on. Sixteen years ago my wife and I had a subscription to _Logos_, which was a quality Christian magazine with a charismatic focus. _Logos_ discontinued publication, and unexpired subscriptions, such as ours, were fulfilled by _Charisma_. Two issues into the subscription, an account totally misrepresented then Gov. Mario M. Cuomo of New York’s stand on a public issue with religious consequences. I was working for the state at the time and happened to be aware of the truth of the matter through an informational sheet sent out by the Governor’s office to state agencies, which I had read. I immediately wrote to the Governor’s Office, enclosing a copy of the article. He prepared a letter to _Charisma_ correcting their misrepresentation, and I received a copy along with a thank-you note from one of his staff. Since this was something regarding which a press release had been prepared and sent out, their research was abysmal. We let the subscription expire. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/228 "2000-08-17T23:41:58Z")
**Poly** > [@](#): > > Huh! I had taken it to mean the void that Modian’s mother alleged was in him for having rejected his Christian heritage. And was a bit surprised to read Lib. being judgmental in matters faith-oriented…while he can and does post some pretty strong allegations in the politico-economic arena, he is not in my experience inclined to pass judgment on another’s religious beliefs or lack thereof. I’m pleased to see that he meant a “void” in himself! 😃 And for the deduction epistemology, it pays to reason from the general (Lib wouldn’t do that) to the particular (he must have meant a void in himself). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/229 "2000-08-18T00:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > All of these elements come into play here. As an illustration, let me equate God’s Holiness to nuclear power. Nuclear power is something you have to handle with the utmost level of precision and balance. One wrong move and you’re dead. You take one step into a room that contains unsealed nuclear radiation without proper protection, and you’re dead. > > God’s Holiness is much the same way. Consider it like a reflex reaction. Imperfection comes into God’s presence and it’s instantly consumed and destroyed. I’m not to happy with your analogy. It seems to imply a mindless distructive aspect to God. This is, in my opinon, antithetical to a loving God. > [@](#): > > On top of that, there’s God’s Justice. He sees all of us and deems every one of us guilty of a life of sin against Him. Think about it. We are in a continual, daily, purposeful rebellion against our very own creator! He finds us guilty, and His Holiness determines that eternal separation from His Presence is the only just punishment. This makes sense, but why hell? According to you (I think, correct me if I’m wrong), being in God’s presence, in heaven, is the best of all possible situations. Anything less than this would be a significant punishment. Why does God need a special torture chamber to deal with the souls that don’t make the cut as being worthy to be in his presence? The whole heaven/hell and God/devil thing seems like a false dichotomy (I learned that from **Libertarian** , I hope I’m using it correctly). Just because there is a best of all possible worlds (e.g. heaven) for people in God’s good ledger doesn’t mean there has to be a worst of all possible worlds for those who aren’t. And, if I understand Christen philosophy correctly, the devil isn’t a mirror image of God (just like God only evil). He is something completely different. So I guess I don’t buy the whole hell as the ‘other place’ for souls to go. Anything less than heaven could be that ‘other place’. > [@](#): > > Now you might not believe what I’m saying here, but consider this for a moment. _If_ I am indeed correct on this point, is it not one of the most amazing demonstrations of love in all of history that God _personally_ came to earth as a human being to make _certain_ that there was an alternative to this? > > I almost erred and said “He didn’t have to”, but actually He did. Why? Because of that _famous_ aspect of His personality … His Love. He couldn’t deny _any_ element of who He was. His justice demands our punishment, His holiness demands the severity of the punishment, but His love and mercy allows a way out of the punishment. > > It amazes me every time I think about it. In fact, I’m glad I just typed that. My gratefulness to God is growing as I type. Thank you Lord for coming to save me. That’s why Christians call it “being saved”. We’re literally being rescued from the punishment we so richly deserve. This also makes some sense, if in fact we really did deserve the punishment, but I’m not convinced of this. I mean, what did I do? Are talking about orignal sin? I don’t understand how babies just born can be sinful. Or are you talking about the sins we all commit? How could God save us from sins we haven’t even commited yet? Alternatively, if you are talking about man’s inherent sinful nature, I have to cite the previous cases presented here of how God shouldn’t have created inherently sinful creatures. If he did, he is stacking the deck in his favor. It doesn’t mean much to save humanity after the fact, if he knew we were going to fall in the first place. I say if we all must sin, there is no free will. I mean since there have been several billion people on Earth and all of them have sinned, it doesn’t say much for the non-sinning alternative as being a choice. > [@](#): > > Since I don’t know you I don’t know how you think about these things, but I’ve noticed that many on this board take things that God does in people’s lives and tries to turn them into coincidences. In other words, if you _really_ want to, you can find a _non_ spiritual explanation for just about _any_ spiritual experience. Well, coincidences happen; even in a Godless world they are inevitable, so they can’t be used as evidence to prove this isn’t a Godless world. As for there being non spiritual explanations for spiritual events, that’s not going to good enough for me. I need a spiritual event that can’t be explained using physical laws. This isn’t to say that all spiritual events must pass this test. God may work in coincidences and happenstance some of the time, but if it turns out this is the only way he works I couldn’t except those as evidence. Another criterion that I didn’t emphasize was that it must be repeatable. At another place and time someone should be able to duplicate the miraculous/spiritual event. I feel a bit like I’m whittling here. Eventually there won’t be any wood left. That’s also a possiblity. It may not be possible to produce evidence of God’s existance to my satisfaction. If that is the case the question will always remain a mystery for me. > [@](#): > > I don’t know if you do this or not. All I can say is this … the next time you hear a sappy-sounding Christian say that God did such-and-so in my life this week, I hope that you will consider for a moment that it’s entirely possible that He did indeed do something for that person. A complete skeptic looks for an alternative explanation and doesn’t even consider the possibility that God was, in fact, involved. I hope that you will consider the _possibility_ of His involvement at the very least. I hope I will too. I hate to think I am prejusticed to an atheist viewpoint. That being said, the fact that I entertain the possiblity of his involvememt doesn’t mean I can accept that possiblity as evidence. Good evidence is a possiblity but not all possiblities make for good evidence. I disagree with your analysis of a complete skeptic’s reaction to this situation. A skeptic looks, initially, at all possiblities as being equally unlikely. He then begins to seperate the more unlikely from the less unlikely. He tries to avoid assumptions and prejustices in all matters. **Libertarian** et al. (I can feel it coming) can debate whether this possible, I just saying it is the goal. I realize there are always some asumptions made in any type of inquiry. But you should never assume any conclusion to be true or false prior to investigation. > [@](#): > > For example, I’ve heard _dozens_ of stories from friends who have had to raise money for missions trips. In some cases, they just raised the money and they were off. For some others, they raised part of the money but were left short, and had to trust God to somehow bring in the rest. And He would do it in amazing ways! > > For example, some obscure refund check from months earlier would arrive in the mail the day before their trip, and it would contain the exact remaining amount they needed. Or in some cases, someone they didn’t even know would hear about their missions trip and give them a check for the exact amount they needed, not knowing the figures involved. There are multitudes of stories like this. As I am sure there are but I’m willing to bet there are as many stories about not have enough money, trusting in God, and the necessary funds not coming through. This is something we could test. If it always happens the way you describe and never the way I describe, this would consitute evidence. However, I suspect that you only hear about the stories where God (apparently) comes through and don’t hear about the ones where he doesn’t. If that is the case your anectdotal accounts would not constitute evidence. > [@](#): > > The guy who wrote the check had a lucky guess. It was by chance. The refund check was going to come anyway, and the fact that it came the day before the trip was just a lucky break. That’s why we have multiple tests. Like I said before God might work using apparently lucky breaks. However, this type of luck must happen more often than chance to show divine intervention. If God can’t do better than chance than he isn’t much of a God ;). On the other hand, if God always (or a statisticly unlikely number of times) comes through with a lucky break, it is hard to deny that something is going on. > [@](#): > > I guess my concern for those on this board is that the standards you set are _so_ high that you will always find something to object to. As I said above, that may be the case. This is sort of faith for the scientific. Its not possible to know everything using science, but we’d like to be really sure about the stuff we know and less sure about the stuff we don’t, than the other way around. And if we are wrong about the stuff we know, there is at least a method for correcting it. > [@](#): > > Maybe that’s what you’re talking about - the outright physical healing type miracles. Or a prophetic word that speaks directly to issues going on in your life (_accurate_ words I must add). The effect needn’t be dramatic, but it must be real and verifiable. > [@](#): > > All I can say is this … I’ve seen skeptics come to healing and prophesy meetings at churches I’ve been to over the years, and I’ve seen some of them truly be moved by it. If you find a godly church in your area that regularly has meetings like that, I encourage you to check it out. You might just find the evidence you’re looking for! I might do that (but before I do, I think I need a definition of godly). I’d like to echo here what others have said before, this isn’t evidence either. Skeptics can have life changing moments in which they become believers, and believers can have life changing moments when they become skeptics. If it was a one-way street we might be on to something, but unforuately it isn’t. > [@](#): > > I hope it was thought provoking. Rest assured, it was. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/230 "2000-08-18T01:42:39Z")
Boy, that feels weird, typing that. I’m sorry that you don’t believe the story. It DID happen, and NOT to a friend of a friend of a friend, but to a VERY good friend of mine. I have no idea how I could prove it to you. I could give you his phone number, and have you ask him yourself, but you’d probably think it was a set-up. And it’s Not an Anti-god urban myth. It’s a Divorce can be Hell true story. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/231 "2000-08-18T01:46:30Z")
Oh, and congrats on the smoking thing ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/232 "2000-08-18T03:16:46Z")
Greetings all! I don’t have time for much of a post but I would like to make two brief comments: GLWasteful: just FYI, my three links weren’t intended to be an _exhaustive_ _list_ of every miracle story of the past three decades. I had some time this morning, I recalled that Charisma was one of the sources I’d heard such stories from, and I thought I would post a few links to give you at least some of what you were looking for. I’m sure there are other resources on the web, but I haven’t had time to research them yet. If I get a chance I will try to post additional articles. By the way, you are right, I’m sorry for assuming you would not be open minded to this stuff. Dr. Lao - loved your response! I hope to continue our discussion later this weekend. G’night folks! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/233 "2000-08-18T12:44:54Z")
So you’ve got evidence of miracles, but all the sources just happen to be from magazines with a religious bent and sloppy reporting practices? Howzabout you come up with a miracle from an unbiased news source that names a specific event that we can actually check on? ---
**Author:** ![Zabes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b19c9b/32.png) [@Zabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabes)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/234 "2000-08-18T13:49:41Z")
FoG sez > [@](#): > > In other words, if you _really_ want to, you can find a _non_ spiritual explanation for just about _any_ spiritual experience. Forgive me if someone has already made this point (I may have missed it in all the marathon posts), but this argument can be turned around very easily, and I think that this is the crux of this discussion. If you approach life assuming that a god is actively working on earth, you will see that god actively working on earth. If you approach life assuming that there are no gods, you’ll never see them. (As I re-read this post, I see that it leaves out the agnostic and probably a few dozen other viewpoints. For the sake of the argument, I’m going to focus on only two options. Those of you who fall in between, I would love to read your take on my thoughts.) If the lack of a god would make you feel “a void”, then you need a god. Then you will have a personal relationship with that god, you’ll see miracles performed by that god, etc. If you don’t (as I do not) feel empty without a god, you don’t need one. All of your personal relationships with be earthly, there will be fortunate and unfortunate coincidences, etc. FoG, your original post asked what it would take for me to believe. This answer is nothing. I tried to believe and I can’t. Please understand that I do not feel empty or like I’m missing something. Also, please understand that when you see a miracle, I do not and I never will. When you see people’s lives turn around because of faith, I see a strengthening of character. All of the evidence for the existence of your god that you can collect, I can refute. You approach life with an active god, I approach life without gods. If I have mis-represented your viewpoint, I apologize. I have tried to see your side through your posts, and that is how I interpret it. If you take some time to reflect on the opposite side, you may come to understand (but still disagree with) my viewpoint. As I have said, I wish you well in your faith. I’m glad it makes you happy. It doesn’t work for me and it never will. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/235 "2000-08-18T14:16:34Z")
I recently saw a special on tornadoes. They had a segment on this church that was hammered by a tornado, yet the 75 people in it weren’t killed. Some of the teenage girls in it (teenage girls seem to be a major source of miracles) claim to have talked to God, and to have seen angels fighting demons that were trying to tear down the walls. Of course, a ‘Miracle’. So why did the customers of the strip joint down the street survive also when the storm hit there? There is nothing worse than referring to surviving a storm as a case of ‘God was with us.’ Talk about uncaring to the people who had loved ones die… ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/236 "2000-08-18T15:50:46Z")
Consarn it, **Poly**! Just when I get a good head of steam up to be really pissed at the arrogance and simplicity of Christians, you come along to dispel it. At this rate, I’ll never get good and steamy. I had no idea of the research that _Charisma_ might or might not do, I just think that a Christian publication is going to have a certain point to make, and will work exclusively toward making it. IOW, a strong bias. It was interesting to discover that our own **Polycarp** , for whom I have a great deal of respect, feels the same way. As does **slythe** , who I also respect, although not for his Christian faith. So, **FriendofGod** , do you have any other sources? Again, they don’t have to be available online. Hell, I already told you that I’ll read _She Said ‘Yes’_, so a trip to the library is in my future no matter what. As long as you can let me know the title and date, I imagine that I can find an issue. Keep in mind that you are the one who said that these instances happen all of the time, I wouldn’t think that it would be so difficult to find documentation. Also, did you read the link that I posted? I really think you should. Y’know, in case you want to use Almolonga as an example in the future. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Lucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/237 "2000-08-18T17:53:05Z")
Where is **Coldfire**? It occurs to me that, since he _lives in Europe_, he can perhaps confirm FoG’s assertion that miracles happen there “all the time”. If I recall, we have other European dopers as well. Surely they can help us out here… ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/238 "2000-08-18T20:46:59Z")
Actually, **Lucky** , the miracles in question have allegedly taken place in Mexico and the Pacific Rim. Unless, that is, **FriendofGod** wants to continue to claim Almolonga as a site. If so, add Guatemala to the list. However, to be fair, he did say that there were other sources reporting other miracles, so maybe there will be something in Europe after all. We shall see. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Lucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/239 "2000-08-18T21:21:31Z")
Sorry…my bad. I thought he’d said “overseas”, which implied Europe to me. I’m very interested in the Pacific Rim miracles, though. Aren’t they a bit short on Christians in that area? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/240 "2000-08-18T23:18:17Z")
I guess I just don’t understand why people would look for the Living among the dead. [… if not interested, stop reading here …] A miracle is something that happens in someone’s heart. I hear some atheists say that they would believe in God if He were to appear in the sky and make a lot of clapping noises or something. Sorry, but I don’t buy it. Forgive my skepticism, but if you don’t want to believe in God, you can explain away _any_ sort of seemingly miraculous occurrence. Like Poly said, what’s the difference? How can you tell whether something was a miracle? Analogous to the god of the gaps is the science of the gaps. Some people, otherwise quite intelligent, believe that reason is not only a valid epistemology, but the _only_ valid one. They are the ones who say, “There simply must be a reasonable explanation.” (You can’t imagine how hard that would have been for me to say before some of my discussions with Spiritus. It is he whom I credit with teaching me the validity of all epistemologies…) I believe that if you are searching for God, you will find Him in the most mundane things. And I believe that if you are not, you won’t see him in even the most spectacular miracle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498.md?page=13)