# What Would It Take to Prove God's Existence to You? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2000, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498 "2000-08-08T01:01:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![APB9999](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB9999](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB9999)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/61 "2000-08-09T04:42:38Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. I would submit to those who think it impossible to > prove God exists … that this cannot be true. There > are many, many people in the world today who did not > believe in God at one time in their lives, and they > are serving Him with a whole heart today. So God was > proven to these people in one way or another. That’s just silly. By the same argument, many apostates all over the world have had it proven to them in some way that God DOESN’T exist. So what does that prove about whether he actually does or not? Truth is not shaped by democracy, and sincere belief by a group of people in the interpretation of a personal experience carries NO argumentative force whatsoever, as I tried to describe at more length in my last post. > [@](#): > > 1. Regarding having a personal experience with God … this > to me is the end result God is after. The whole point > of _WHY_ God pursues you so much throughout your life > is that He deeply loves you and wants a personal > relationship with you. But it rarely “just happens”. > See next point. > > 2. This is the one I _really_ want to address. As far as I > know, God _rarely_ works this way. He _does_ woo you > and try to draw you and get your attention throughout > your life, but at the same time _you_ must seek after > _Him_ if you want to find Him. If you sit around > waiting for a Neon Sign in the sky, it’ll never happen. Now this, and really most of your post, is downright irritating; you’re ignoring the etiquette of the board: **You are in the wrong forum for such straightforward proselytizing.** These “points” have nothing to do with proving God to an atheist on their own terms, the debate _you_ were ostensibly starting. I put real thought into my answer and you’re completely ignoring the points I offered in order to just preach the same standard old line we’ve all heard a thousand times; trying to demonstrate the existence of God by showing what a swell bunch Christians are (a dubious enough assertion on its own). > [@](#): > > 1. Actually, miracles are a pretty legitimate one. Seeing > a medically verifiable healing can be pretty convincing. > But _EVEN_ that is probably not enough for most people. > I would tend to think there would need to be something > more although I could be wrong. Show me a medical miracle that demonstrably defies physical law, and is not merely the everyday expression of human ignorance about the complexity of the human body, and I’ll believe if it meets the requirements I outlined in my last post. For that matter, show me that spontaneous remissions and “miraculous” recoveries happen to the devout statistically more often than to nonbelievers. And _PLEASE_ stop preaching, or at least drop the approach that Christians are a less bigoted, self-centered, arrogant, petty, contentious, vengeful, warlike, avaricious, hapless, and misguided crew than the rest of the world’s human clay. I have eyes, you know, and it has nothing to do with the existence of God anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/62 "2000-08-09T05:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by FirendofGod_ **e said _several_ times on this board … if you want to check out Christianity, check out _Christians_. Check out real-life born-again believers and hang out with them for a couple of months in church groups. And make sure it’s a _healthy_ church with Godly people.** No. You just described the best way in the world to turn your spirit over to some worldly leader, or cult that knows how to put on a good show. You want to find the spirit of God, you look for the spirit in the way someone lives, not in the way they publicly profess their religion. How loudly, how often, or how well you preach has nothing to do with God. That is a matter of earthly passions. Tattoo this on your forehead, Friend, so you will have a ready prompt to dissuade you from self-aggrandizement. “Hi, I am a Christian, don’t follow me.” Christians are not better than non-Christians. Those professing Christian faith may or may not have faith in Christ. He knows which are which, and no one else is entitled to an opinion. People who make much of their own circle of friends being true Christians are blatantly stating that they are able to make that judgment. So by the measure of their own judgment they choose to receive judgment. I prefer mercy. Receive each soul in the world with compassion, and love. The state of their soul is not in your charge, nor is the judgment of their spirit. I am moved again to great distress with you, and must make amends for what I think of you. Be faithful to Him! He has not given to you the task of Salvation. Tend the fruits of your life, and let those alone speak of your faith. The Lord will know. Pray alone, in the darkness, shut away from the world, so that you and the Lord may speak privately. Give that same respect to every sinner in the world. Tris ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/63 "2000-08-09T05:06:42Z")
Just a quick thought to APB before going to bed … You said … > [@](#): > > . I put real thought into my answer and you’re completely ignoring the points I offered in order to just preach the same standard old line we’ve all heard a thousand times I’m sorry if you took it that way APB. I read every word of your post and thought it was indeed very well thought out. As I said this was a summary as I didn’t have the time earlier tonite (nor do I now) to do my usual point for point comments. I hope to be able to do that in the next few days. I wasn’t ignoring you, sorry if it sounded that way! You said: > [@](#): > > You are in the wrong forum for such straightforward proselytizing. _cough_ > [@](#): > > For long-running discussions of the great questions of our time. This is also the place for religious debates and (if you feel you must) witnessing. They’ve pretty much restricted me to here APB, sorry! Again, sorry if you felt that I didn’t respect your points. I just scanned over them again and found them interesting. I hope to comment more specifically soon. G’night friends and cyber-neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![APB9999](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB9999](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB9999)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/64 "2000-08-09T05:40:27Z")
You’re right. I guess this IS the right forum. My apologies for getting pissy. I look forward to your next post. ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/65 "2000-08-09T07:23:39Z")
What Ben said: > [@](#): > > How do you feel when atheists do those things? (Aside from the prayers, of course.) [/quote] FoG quoth: > [@](#): > > … when a Christian refuses to lie to a customer even though he knows it will cost him a multi-million dollar business > deal … > > ``` > ... when a Christian man looks the *other* way when a woman in a slinky dress leans over in front of him ... > > ... when a Christian goes through a horrific tragedy and still trusts God and makes a point of finding things to be thankful for ... > > ``` How do you feel when [li]an Atheist refuses to lie to a customer even though he knows it will cost him a multi-million dollar business deal…[/li] In college where I studied Physics we had a pathological Christian student (note: not to imply all Christians are crazy, just this one was) who followed women around trying to convert them **and** get them to go out with him. My favorite moment was when he saw he was getting an abysmal grade in some typically challenging high-level physics course and said in earshot of a good 15 people “As a Christian, I can’t bring myself to cheat. All these others who are doing so well don’t have that burden.” I would have argued with him if I didn’t already realize how wacked the guy was. When you imply that only Christians don’t lie (and you did, just not as blatantly as my former classmate) you insult me and make me less likely to want to look at the purity of your heart to find truth. [/quote] [li]an Atheist does not peep in the open locker-room window, but instead goes around the the fully-dressed attendent to let her know of the open curtain…[/li] Many is the time in college when women would ask me to turn around while they got naked. I respected their wishes for privacy, no God had to tell me how to be a decent human. [/quote] [li]an Atheist goes through a terrible tragedy, and still embraces life and makes a point of finding things to make life worth living and support others suffering at the same time.[/li] Personally, I don’t understand the “I’m miserable, but God must have a better plan” attitude. I would not have been able to deal with my tragedies if I had a God to blame for them. When a plane crashes and not one child survives, was it “God’s will?” My father-in-law is a Lutheran pastor (yes, I know, not quite Christian enough for you) and **hates** when people say things like that. [/quote] So, Friend, what say you? Does observing an ethical Atheist suddenly disprove God to you? And now, a closing remark from Dream Theater. > [@](#): > > Hypocrite- > How could you be so cruel > and expect my faith in return? > > ``` > Resistance- > Is not as hard as it seems > When you close the door > > I spent so long trusting in you > A trust you forgot > Just when I thought I believed in you... > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/66 "2000-08-09T10:40:13Z")
> [@](#): > > If [His] existence could be proven, [He] would not be God. I agree completely with that assertion. “Proof” requires a tautology set in an illusion. God is real, and therefore cannot be proven. > [@](#): > > I believe I said exactly that: that God could conclusively demonstrate his existence (as your wife has demonstrated _her_ existence), and man would still be able to freely choose to love or not love God, based on His apparent attributes and explanations. In the first place, God _has_ conclusively demonstrated His existence, at least to me. But since apprehension is a subject phenomenon, born in the brain, His existence must be demonstrated differently for each of us. But, “the last shall be first and the first last”. Even the hardball atheist must admit that God exists _at least conceptually_, in the same way that truth exists (otherwise, the hardball atheist is quite deeply into shadow boxing). Loving God is not like loving the wife you are married to; it is like loving the wife you are _promised_ to — whom you have never seen, but have only heard about. You have love letters from her, but that is all. The final decision (that is, the one that spans the whole continuum) is made when we see Him face to face. Instantly, we will judge ourselves and either run to Him or run away. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/67 "2000-08-09T10:41:59Z")
Still waiting for FriendofGod to answer my questions… * * * Yer pal, Satan [sub]TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Four months, 8 hours, 38 minutes and 4 seconds. 4894 cigarettes not smoked, saving $611.80. Life saved: 2 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 50 minutes.[/sub] **_"Satan is not an unattractive person."_-Drain Bead** [sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey!\*[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/68 "2000-08-09T13:14:57Z")
> [@](#): > > The final decision (that is, the one that spans the whole continuum) is made when we see Him face to face. Instantly, we will judge ourselves and either run to Him or run away. Your statement here reminds me of the final few scenes of the movie “Dogma.” Bartleby, a “fallen angel,” has spent the entire movie alternately angry at God, lonely for God’s company, and finally rebelling and attempting to fool and wage war on God. When, in the final scene, he is confronted with God (Alanis Morrissette!), he immediately breaks into tears, apologizes and seeks forgiveness. It would be great if that really happened. But it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/69 "2000-08-09T13:25:57Z")
“You never know what’s around the corner.” — Lib’s sainted mother ---
**Author:** ![POIUyT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c67d28/32.png) [@POIUyT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POIUyT)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/70 "2000-08-09T13:26:50Z")
I’m an atheist, but although i often find Christians trying to convert me annoying, i never find them offensive. Because according to their beliefs if you don’t believe in God, you are forsaken to hell, and they don’t want that for you. The people that i really don’t like are Christians that ‘sin’. They treat their religion like a hobby, when it’s supposed to be a way of life. Hey, if i believed that stuff i would live my life in complete celibacy (just in case) and become a priest for a surefire way to heaven, where i’ll spend eternity and that’s a pretty long time. But alas, i’ll probably spend my afterlife as an unpleasant smelling corpse. And a even a minor knowledge of psychology can explain why people in God, afterlife, and whatnot despite the fact it makes little sense. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/71 "2000-08-09T13:55:25Z")
\*\*FriendofGod \*\*: > [@](#): > > … when a Christian asks their Bible Study group to pray for good things to happen to their boss, who regularly curses and yells at them and treats them unfairly … Y’know, I don’t want anything bad to happen to you. I sincerely hope that you will be happy with the rest of your life. No matter what. And I’m an atheist. So, how does my response fit in with your world view? > [@](#): > > … when a Christian man looks the _other_ way when a woman in a slinky dress leans over in front of him … And many is the time that I hav. . .ahh, to hell with it. I can’t type that and keep a straight face. **Friend** , if your faith has made you immune to the charms of women, then I feel really sorry for you. Newsflash! Sometimes women would like to be observed. Not ogled at, or slobbered on, or fondled (as my PO has told me time and time again), but not necessarily ignored, either. > [@](#): > > I realize not all of you _want_ to find God if He _does_ exist. Well, speaking only for myself, all thanks. It’s always nice to be recognized, especially by one so much better than a simple atheist such as myself. Again, I sincerely hope that your life is at least as fulfilling as you want it to be. But if you’re here hoping to convince some atheists that your way is The Right Way, and rack up a score that will impress your God, it won’t happen. You are neither the first, nor the most annoying, nor, I imagine, the last to try. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Nekochan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@Nekochan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nekochan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/72 "2000-08-09T17:57:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* > 5. It would take observing the life of a strong Christian… > For me personally, the ONE THING that I’ve ever seen in my life that convinced a skeptic of not only God’s existence but God’s LOVE for them … was # 5._\* In my experience, lonely and confused people will join a religious group because the people are nice to them and do not judge them. This is not proof, per se. They are not feeling God’s love - they are feeling the love of the religious people for them. This is simply a case of a person who wants to belong somewhere finding somewhere to belong. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\*Rather than commenting on everyone’s individual comments, I would like to take note of things about these 5 themes. > > 1. I would submit to those who think it impossible to > prove God exists … that this cannot be true. There > are many, many people in the world today who did not > believe in God at one time in their lives, and they > are serving Him with a whole heart today. So God was > proven to these people in one way or another.\*\* Well, the criteria of proof for these people are obviously different from the criteria required for us. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* > 2. Regarding having a personal experience with God … this > to me is the end result God is after. The whole point > of _WHY_ God pursues you so much throughout your life > is that He deeply loves you and wants a personal > relationship with you. But it rarely “just happens”. > See next point. > > 1. This is the one I _really_ want to address. As far as I > know, God _rarely_ works this way. He _does_ woo you > and try to draw you and get your attention throughout > your life, but at the same time _you_ must seek after > _Him_ if you want to find Him. If you sit around > waiting for a Neon Sign in the sky, it’ll never happen. Well, I hate mind games. If God is going to send me to hell for unbelief, he ought to do more on his part. And here is a question often asked by nonbelievers - what about people who live in extremely isolated areas not visited by missionaries? How do they know to seek for God? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* > 5. As I said, _this_ is the one that really seems to work. > More below. > > I’ve said _several_ times on this board … if you want to check out Christianity, check out _Christians_. Check out real-life born-again believers and hang out with them for a couple of months in church groups. And make sure it’s a _healthy_ church with Godly people. > > You’ll find people that are imperfect for sure, but you will see love demonstrated that can only be described as supernatural. It’s _NOT_ human! > > The biggest things that give evidence of God in this life is when a _human_ _being_ reacts to a situation in a very Godly way that is _not_ naturally human. For example, some of the best evidences of God to me are … > > … when a Christian asks their Bible Study group to pray for good things to happen to their boss, who regularly curses and yells at them and treats them unfairly … > > … when a Christian refuses to lie to a customer even though he knows it will cost him a multi-million dollar business deal … > > … when a Christian man looks the _other_ way when a woman in a slinky dress leans over in front of him … > > … when a Christian goes through a horrific tragedy and still trusts God and makes a point of finding things to be thankful for … > > That’s an _extremely_ small sampling, but most of them are not nebulous. I had specific people in mind on each one of those I just listed except the second one.\*\* Well, I know a lot of Buddhists who also behave in a saintly manner. Are you ready to become a Buddhist? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > **Now here’s the thing. You can decide the glass is half empty or the glass is half full. In other words, you can look at Christian _failures_ in these areas and say “A-HA! That proves Christianity isn’t real”, _or_ you can take a look at those who _ARE_ living it out, and realize they have found something truly astonishing and life changing.** The fact that there are “good” Christians and “bad” Christians merely proves they are human like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/73 "2000-08-09T18:29:17Z")
Peace on Earth! This is sort of ironic as religion causes so many wars. I would bet my belief that if we got religion out of Northern Ireland, we would have peace. Oh what am I saying, God is obviously right… Go on killing in his name you of various faiths. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/74 "2000-08-09T18:54:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* > > … when a Christian refuses to lie to a customer even though he knows it will cost him a multi-million dollar business deal … > > \*\* I have to say something in response to this. I happen to live in a country where religion is slowly but surely loosing its grip… Japan. Currently the population has a majority of atheist. Probably because of the Shinto religion which brought them to death and destruction during WW2. However and whatever the reason may be, I have never met so many atheists as I have in Japan…. And I have never met more honest people. If you drop your wallet in the street you stand a good chance of recovering it with all your cash remaining. I think in the west if someone found a wallet full of cash it may be considered “A gift from God”, whereas the Japanese would think, “this belongs to some poor fellow”. I am not saying Japanese honesty is based on the lack of religion. It is obviously a cultural aspect. But to say only Christians are honest just irritates me. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/75 "2000-08-09T19:59:22Z")
NiceGuyJack - First off, welcome. Don’t know if you’ve already been welcomed but I guess it’s my turn. Secondly, I would not be in too much of a rush painting Japanese culture as more honest than Western culture. We’ve all got our demons. As I recall, Japan has pretty much insitutionalized denial of certain attrocities to such an extent that school history books have been rewritten to avoid bringing up the subject. So please don’t be overly quick to judge others on these terms. …and again, welcome. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/76 "2000-08-09T20:29:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by QuickSilver \* > \*\*NiceGuyJack - > > First off, welcome. Don’t know if you’ve already been welcomed but I guess it’s my turn. > \*\* Thank You > [@](#): > > - > > Secondly, I would not be in too much of a rush painting Japanese culture as more honest than Western culture. We’ve all got our demons. As I recall, Japan has pretty much insitutionalized denial of certain attrocities to such an extent that school history books have been rewritten to avoid bringing up the subject. So please don’t be overly quick to judge others on these terms. > \*\* I don’t think I said the Japanese were angels. Although I am not surprised to get this kind of reaction. I think my post clearly mentioned that the new Japanese atheists, is a result of the war and destruction brought upon them by the Shinto religion. As for Japanese denials in their history books. It is very true and something I disagree with, yet I forget 50 yen change in the coke machine and next thing I find is some fellow chasing me down to give my change back. I’d be the first one to point out the Japanese problems, but honesty is not one of them. If you think that the war of 50 odd years ago is a mirror of Japanese society today, then you really need to pay a visit. Still I guess you may have a point, I hate the French and Napoleon is to blame. ---
**Author:** ![lunapark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/278dde/32.png) [@lunapark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lunapark)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/77 "2000-08-09T20:47:14Z")
FriendofGod said > [@](#): > > You’ll find people that are imperfect for sure, but you will see love demonstrated that can only be described as supernatural. It’s _NOT_ human! What?? How is it supernatural? The items you listed below are hardly going to prove some supernatural love. > [@](#): > > The biggest things that give evidence of God in this life is when a _human_ _being_ reacts to a situation in a very Godly way that is _not_ naturally human. For example, some of the best evidences of God to me are … > > ``` > ... when a Christian asks their Bible Study group to pray for good things to happen to their boss, who regularly curses and yells at them and treats them unfairly ... > > ... when a Christian refuses to lie to a customer even though he knows it will cost him a multi-million dollar business deal ... > > ... when a Christian man looks the *other* way when a woman in a slinky dress leans over in front of him ... > > ... when a Christian goes through a horrific tragedy and still trusts God and makes a point of > finding things to be thankful for ... > > That's an *extremely* small sampling, but most of them are not nebulous. I had specific people in > mind on each one of those I just listed except the second one. > > ``` Doing the above listed things doesn’t show anything about being a christian. The above things are _moral_, and are done by many moral people of many religons around the world. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/78 "2000-08-09T21:01:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Go on killing in his name you of various faiths. Well, sure, **Jack**. But according to **Friend of God** , those people, despite their own beliefs, aren’t _ **Christians** _. 'Fact, anyone who doesn’t believe as he does is not a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/79 "2000-08-09T21:20:28Z")
I’m an agnostic. I can’t see how any logical person could be an atheist. I don’t know whether god exists or not. I doubt he/she does. But I know for a fact that it is _impossible_ to know for certain that he/she does _not_ exist. Hence, atheism is a belief system just like any other. It requires faith in your own feeling that god does not exist. Now, what would I accept as motivation to change my beliefs to a more god-friendly paradigm? 1 - Direct, personal communication with god on a repeatable basis. 2 - Witness of (1) above, by other people than myself, to rule out psychosis. 3 - An explanation, directly from god, as to his “mysterious ways.” In other words, satisfying answers to the following questions: a) Why do bad things happen to good people? b) Why did you make potato bugs so ugly? c) Can you make a rock you can’t lift? If not, why? d) Why have you allowed so many horrific acts to be performed in your name? 4 - Proof that this god does not maintain his own personal torture chamber (Hell) for people who don’t toe the line. This would invalidate any other proof. I think that would be a good start, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2000, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/80 "2000-08-09T21:26:02Z")
NiceGuyJack - I prefer not to highjack this thread so if you want to start a new topic about Japanese culture vs Western culture morals then be my guest. Let me just say that 50 years is not a very long time. Certainly not long enough to erase the wounds inflicted by Japanese aggression during the second world war. Japan has it’s share of surviving victims much like the survivor’s of Nazi aggression. 50 yen from a coke machine does not erase the pain caused in the recent past. I don’t want to make it seem that I don’t believe you, I just don’t want you to delude yourself into thinking that a returned wallet somehow makes up for past wrongs. It’s not that easy my friend. Not for anyone in this world. Japan is certainly not the exception to the rule. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498.md?page=5)