# What Would It Take to Prove God's Existence to You? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2000, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498 "2000-08-08T01:01:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/141 "2000-08-13T04:25:00Z")
Here’s a better link from the website I just mentioned: [http://www.lastdaysministries.org/store/books.html](http://www.lastdaysministries.org/store/books.html) That’s the link to the specific page for ordering the book. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/142 "2000-08-13T05:17:04Z")
What causes me to walk away from a religious conversation is the mis-use of common words. People claim to talk with God-what does his voice sound like? They claim to have been visited by God-what does he look like? If I have a conversation in my head and address it to my wife, that is NOT the same thing as conversing with her. If I feel good about the lunch she made me, that is NOT the same thing as her being in front of me. Unless you can tell us what God sounds like and/or looks like, you have not conversed _with_ or been visited _by_ God. At best, you have talked _at_ God, and convinced yourself that that is as good as it gets. When you asked us for what it would take for us to believe in your god’s existance, did you have any intention of taking our word on what our standards would be, or did you always intend on presenting your reasons why we should believe the way we do? If you god existed, he would _know_ exactly what it would take to convince me and others, and thus far he hasn’t tried very hard. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/143 "2000-08-13T18:15:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* > > I’m going to plead ignorance as I know nothing about brain tumors, but I am so sorry this happened to you! How is your health today? Is it cureable? I’m sorry if these are stupid questions but I really don’t know. > \*\* That’s okay, I didn’t know a thing about the subject until I got sick. My tumor is not cureable but it is treatable. I’ll never be at 100%, but this thing is unlikely to kill me. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As for what you thought was a religious experience … should you write off religious experiences _just_ because this particular one happened to be bogus? > \*\* Let me put it this way: if I ever have a religious experience again, I will consult my neurologist. I have no reason to believe that I personally will ever have one that is not caused by my medical problems. I suppose it is possible that the gods might communicate with other people but this seems unlikely to me, especially considering how common minor neurological problems (I’ll call them NPs from here on out) are. I can easily believe that everyone who has ever had a religious experience was suffering from some sort of NP, since this is something that I \know\ can happen. It can be very convincing, even to a skeptic. I do not, however, have any evidence at all that anyone has ever had a religious experience not caused by NPs. I also have a hard time understanding why the gods, if any of them exist and are keen on communicating with humans, would chose a method that looks so much like a symptom of NPs. ---
**Author:** ![SeatTime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@SeatTime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeatTime)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/144 "2000-08-13T19:43:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SeatTime \* > The God we speak of is omni-everything. He’s _perfect_. This is where I have a problem. How can a perfect deity create an imperfect place and imperfect beings? Isn’t Satan (not the one on this board) a fallen angel? How does _that_ happen? It just doesn’t add up. **Perfection, by definition, can only beget the same.** I still haven’t heard any word on how to wrestle with this one. ::drumming fingers on desk:: ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/145 "2000-08-13T21:10:59Z")
God created beings of free will. These beings have a choice: perfection under God’s grace, or rebellion against God, which would put them in the long path to find the perfection that they once lost. According to the Bible, the great angel Satan and humankind rebelled against their Creator, and now they are stuck searching the way back ever since. Satan, the angels that followed him and many humans will not choose to surrender to God, for it is an indication that the rebellion is lost. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/146 "2000-08-13T22:33:41Z")
Open note to Slythe: I’ve noted your questions, and printed out your last post. I think that I want to think over and phrase carefully my answer to what you’ve phrased, but I agree it does deserve answering. So this is acknowledgement of the point, and a promise to deal with it when I have time to phrase it accurately and thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/147 "2000-08-13T22:46:39Z")
> [@](#): > > My point was not to put _down_ other people, but merely to show that God has the ability to _change_ people from something they weren’t into something brand now . . . My point is … God can _transform_ _lives_ in dramatic ways. He can change habits in you that you might think are unbreakable! His power is amazing. Yes, because of course, nobody ever makes **major** changes in their own lives and personalities by the simple force of their own will. Come _on_, FoG. I know you’re not stupid, but must you be naive, and argue from such easily dismissable premises? > [@](#): > > If God truly doesn’t exist, if He’s _so_ hard to prove, why are there _any_ people that believe in Him? And we’re not talking about a small minority. We’re talking a wide cross-section of cultures, races, backgrounds, etc etc contain people that do believe in God. Replace “Him” and “God” with one of the following words: alien visitors, homeopathy, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, the secret 300mpg carburetor. Now tell me why your statement here is not a particularly reasonable argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/148 "2000-08-13T23:57:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*God created beings of free will. These beings have a choice: perfection under God’s grace, or rebellion against God, which would put them in the long path to find the perfection that they once lost. According to the Bible, the great angel Satan and humankind rebelled against their Creator, and now they are stuck searching the way back ever since. Satan, the angels that followed him and many humans will not choose to surrender to God, for it is an indication that the rebellion is lost. \*\* Ah, but a perfect being would never _choose_ do rebel against God. They would _choose_ to follow God. Why don’t I have the possibility of choosing to lead a perfect life? For that matter, why did God give us the _desire_ to do evil? I don’t want to jump headfirst into horse manure, and I will never do so, but I don’t feel as though my free will has been crippled by the lack of a strong desire to jump into a pile of crap. I’m afraid that these kinds of Christian arguments about free will seem pretty shallow to me. Why didn’t God choose only to create those people who would become Christians of their own free will? You can’t infringe on the free will of someone who doesn’t exist, so why create infidels and villains? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/149 "2000-08-13T23:59:24Z")
Could someone (perhaps Gaudere) direct FoG to the old thread about “Why doesn’t God always answer when we knock?” (That’s not the real title.) -Ben ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/150 "2000-08-14T00:19:16Z")
I probably won’t have time to _totally_ catch up right now, but I will try to squeeze a few more in … matt: You explained to me what you meant by “placebo prayer” and then said: > [@](#): > > What is interesting is that the people given placebos often show improvements in their condition. I was implying in my nasty, sneaky little atheist way that cures through prayer are due to this “placebo effect” and would work if the people doing the praying were faking it. In other words, take 50 sick people, have 25 people actually pray for them and have 25 people _pretend_ to pray for them, and see if they get the same results? Am I following you correctly here? I know you’re being witty, but this doesn’t work exactly the same. The sick person can also choose to pray even if all the other aren’t. Also, in the group that _is_ praying, there might be some who pray with great faith, and others who pray with little faith. So you’d have some from both groups get healed and some from both groups not get healed. I said there’s no such thing as a good person so bad things happen to only bad people, and you said: > [@](#): > > I was being facetious again, but I don’t like your answer at all. Babies can be born with cystic fribrosis because they’re not “inherently good”? You can be “nice” and “moral” but it’s still okay for some random, not-caused-by-other-humans-exercising-their-freedom-of-choice “natural” disaster to ruin your life? I think my answer to your _third_ point answers this question. See next… I talked about how our sin curses the earth as a whole. > [@](#): > > Seems a bit arbitrary to me, that YOUR house could be carried off in a tornado because of what the rest of us sinful scum are doing, but I daresay it’ll be made up to you in Heaven. (Yes, I know you’re a sinner too. According to your answer to point (2), everybody is. So I guess we’re stuck with this We pretty much _are_ stuck with this … but the good news is , NOT forever! There _will_ come a day, perhaps soon, that God _will_ forever take away the curse of sin! All those who chose to not serve God will be out of the picture, and God will take the rest of us to be with Him forever. And _you_ can be in on that if you want to be! Regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit, you said: > [@](#): > > If you can demonstrate this, Mr. Randi will give you a million dollars. If you can tell me anything about me using the gifts of the Holy Spirit and which you could not have known otherwise, go for it! Well! I might just do that. However, I do _not_ want to imply that it’s something I can or would ever do to put on a magic show. It’s _always_ in the context of building the person up and encouraging them and praying for them. What I think I am going to do in the near future is start a post asking for people’s prayer requests. In responding, as I pray, I will ask God for a “word” for different people (I’ll make sure you’re in that bunch :)). I would also want to point out the parameters of NT Prophesy from the Bible to be sure it wasn’t misunderstood. Having said that, be on the lookout. Wow! Well, forgive me. As I was preparing to move on, I think God gave me something for you. Is there something going on at your job that is causing great confusion, matt? That is what I am sensing. Please correct me if I’m wrong. _If_ what I’m sensing is indeed correct, God has a word of encouragment for you. Okay, SeatTime, I saw your recent post wondering where my response was. Sorry I haven’t gotten to you yet but I’ve been _kinda_ _busy_ in case you can’t tell! At any rate, I’ve finally reached your post which says in part: > [@](#): > > The God we speak of is omni-everything. He’s _perfect_. This is where I have a problem. How can a perfect deity create an imperfect place and imperfect beings? Isn’t Satan (not the one on this board) a fallen angel? How does _that_ happen? It just doesn’t add up. Perfection, by definition, can only beget the same. God didn’t create imperfect beings. He created _beings_, period. Actually, they _were_ perfect, but they had free will to _choose_ to go a different direction. Unfortunately, they _did_ go in another direction. stuffinb: I’ve already responded to the notion of Christians being “better” than others (see my marathon posts last night), so I’ll respond to your other comments: > [@](#): > > Please define “Godly” for me One simple definition is: someone who does whatever pleases God. > [@](#): > > If the end results of my actions are the same as yours, you sticking “Godly” in front of yours doesn’t make your choices superior, it only questions your motive. As I later said, atheists can do Godly things. My main point is God takes those areas we are _WEAK_ in and can turn them around. There are two extremes: 1. I sit around waiting for God to give me power to change, and nothing happens, so I blame God. 2. I try really hard all the time to do God’s will, and fail, and so I blame God. The balance: I come to God and ask for grace and strength to change, _receive_ that grace, and make choices based on the new strength He gave me. Out of curiosity, you said your wife was a Christian. Does she ever check out these discussions or this board?? John, you said: > [@](#): > > FoG: For me to believe in God- specifically, the Christian God you believe in- would take absolute, logical proof that the Bible is true, and that all other religious documents, doctrines, and tenets are false. > > So unless God is willing to dictate directly to me what His great goals and demands are for our society, I will continue to try and live a decent and moral life by a philosphical code as outlined by Jesus, and then suffer in Hell for all eternity after I die. I can’t tell if you meant that last line in humor or in sober seriousness. If you’re serious I would say – you just said what you would require to believe in God, yet you already believe in hell. How does that work? All I can offer you is a suggestion to read the book I recommended earlier in this thread. It shows the life of a man who went through religion after religion, crossing them off his list one at a time. At the end of the line there was only one left … Christianity. Falcon said, in jest, > [@](#): > > Hey John - Phil and I are already planning the party in Hell for all of us…what you wanna bring? I know you’re being cute but I couldn’t resist commenting. I don’t know about this for sure, but many believe that one of the curses of hell is that you will have _no_ communication whatsoever with other individuals, _ever_ again. You will be totally isolated. My point? You wanna come to a _REAL_ party, come to the wedding supper of the Lamb that will take place at the end of time! _THAT_ will be one rockin party! I really would love for you to be there Falcon :). Nekochan reponded to my description of God being good by saying: > [@](#): > > That may be your God, but it is not the God of the Bible (more specifically, the OT). I am sure you have heard non-Xians bring up biblical atrocities And then you listed two stories you called Biblical atrocities. Here’s something interesting for you to consider. _EVERY_ Christian I know reads passages like these in the Old Testement and says to themselves (and to each other), “THAT doesn’t sound like something God would do!” In other words, based on our personal experiences with God, some of those OT stories just don’t sound like Him. Now over time, as we _study_ the OT we begin to at least partly understand some of those things in the context, but my point is … God _did_ appear to change the way He deals with humanity from Old to New Testement. And He’s going to change _AGAIN_ at some point in the future at the end of time. This is a season of grace that began with the book of Acts and continues to today. Don’t wait for _this_ season to end to get right with God! That’s all I have time for right now but I will try to do more later this week. Hope all goes well this week everyone! G’night. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/151 "2000-08-14T00:37:32Z")
Ok, I know I shouldn’t jump in here, but I’m gonna anyway. > [@](#): > > The point is … _recognizing_ your weakness is the key to strength! This is where you get those wacky Christian paradoxes – “When you’re weak, He is strong”, “To find your life, you must lose it”, etc. Ah, yes. As stated so eloquently by that great, christain philosopher, Sun Tsu. You know, this is by FAR the most annoying thing that prothesisers do. MANY MANY philosophies and religion, contain this element, INCLUDING modern psycology. The examples you gave are neither perticularly “christian,” nor are they paradoxes. Please refrain from claiming major issues of philosophy as your own, and THEN implying that you’re the only people who ever “figured it out.” It’s spectaularly insulting, and seems to be deceptive as well. Sorry if that was a bit harsh, but that REALLY irritates me. > [@](#): > > Nope again. Actually, there _are_ many times that I am simply using gifts that God has given me to solve problems. I teach computer software for a living. Fixing computer problems can be _QUITE_ a bugaboo! Over the years, when I’ve had major problems, I’m _embarrassed_ to say that there have been few times I’ve asked God for help. I’ve fallen _myself_ for the deception that “God doesn’t care about these mundane things.” God cares about _every_ thing! So, this should be very easy to verify, shouldn’t it? If God is willing to give you supernatural knowlage on computer repair, maybe you should try this with something that you have no previous training with, and thus _couldn’t_ be pulling out of your subconcious. Maybe advanced molecular biologly? If you get the teachers edition of a textbook, you could try a bunch of problems at the end, without reading the earlier chapters. If your answers match up with the correct ones, you’d have a much better arguement. Have you really considered the claim you’re making here? God is dropping predigested solutions to technical problems directly into you’re brain? Not that he’s motivating you to better yourself at your profession, or that he’s nudging you along to help you with your day to day life, or that he’s helping you to rember things, but that he’s acctually downloading specific information into your brain? If this is common, shouldn’t “true” christain students have perfect test scores? I’m sorry, I’m not trying to mock your belifs or your faith, but this sounds like something out of _Oh My Goddess._ I have no problem beliving that a deity would be concerned with trivial things, though . . . > [@](#): > > atheists??? Nope. Believe me, it’s not fun getting your beliefs hacked to death and ridiculed on a daily basis (note: I’m aware not all are doing this). I’m here because I believe God wants me here Heh. I imagine it’s not. Remeber this next time some SOCS issue comes up in your school district. And imagine how much worse it would be if, instead of being an adult volentrily exposing yourself to this for a couple of hours a day of occasionaly rude arguement, you were a young, unpopular child, being forced to endure this for six hours a day from both your peers and teachers. And juvinile arguments often go beyond a little net-heckling. Sorry. Don’t mean to hijack, OR start ranting, but being part of an unpopular minority is something that everyone should experience, just to know what it’s like. > [@](#): > > LOL! No, actually pretty dramatic New Testement type miracles. Many Christian leaders have speculated why it’s not as prevelant in the good ole USA. In other countries, many cultures _KNOW_ that the supernatural exists. It’s not a matter of is there a God or isn’t there, it’s “is your God’s power as great as our god’s?” It’s a totally different environment, and God seems to show up in more dramatic ways. Really? Why don’t we hear about them? Aside from the not perticularly impressive “Mary’s face appearing on a muffin” kind of miricles, I can’t reacal any reports of this kind of thing. A few examples, maybe? > [@](#): > > On the other hand … God says that no one will have an excuse for not having turned to Him on judgment day. I don’t claim to fully understand this, but it makes _me_ feel more urgent about spreading the gospel. I will say this: the Bible seems to indicate that God _does_ reveal Himself to all people in some way or another. I’ve heard almost spooky stories of God revealing Himself to tribes and natives that had _never_ _once_ in their history had missionaries come to their area. Interesting. Basically, this would mean that those born into christian areas in general, and those born into christain religion specifically, are far less open to God than those who arn’t. After all, the pigmies and the ainu had no need of an organized religion to bring them to God, but one of my friends needed to be born not just in a largly christain region, but also to have both his parents churchgoers as well, to get an equal shot at heaven. Kinda makes him look bad by comparison. I don’t think you can get around that, without admiting that he had the deck stacked in his favor . . . > [@](#): > > makes me want to post the other topic. The topic I’m referring to is basically a topic to expose just _HOW_ sinful all of us really are. Believe me, it’s much worse than any of us realize. In reality, we _all_ need God equally, but that isn’t equally _obvious_ to all. If circumstances are going good, it might seem like you don’t need him. Than any of us realize? Even suicidily depressed nilhists? If it’s that much worse than ANY of us realize, how come you know about it? Why do you assume that christains have a harsher view on “human nature” than everyone else? That being said, I’m not wild about the word “sinful” either, which always seemed to me to be inherently judgemental. But that’s a different arguement alltogether. > [@](#): > > Several of the people in her Bible Study group prayed for her leg to be healed and she started yelling “It’s hot! It’s hot!” She didn’t realize that that’s the classic sign that God is physically healing you (it’s common for the part of you that’s being healed to feel warm). So God is exothermic? If that’s so, shouldn’t it be heaven that’s hot, and hell that’s cold? (Sorry. Couldn’t resist) If this is so, it should be in her medical records, no? A broken bone healing in a couple of days is proably worthy of a post it note or something. I’m sorry, but this is classic “frend of a friend” type of evidence. The most honest of people tend to exagerate five year old stories that have great signifigance to them. And even if it went EXACTLY as your friend described, there are other possible, (though fairly unlikly) explanations. Maybe her bone wasn’t really broken. And if her leg WAS healed by a miricle, how do you know it was God, and not, say, a demon? > [@](#): > > My point was not to put _down_ other people, but merely to show that God has the ability to _change_ people from something they weren’t into something brand now. Think caterpillar to butterfly. I could probably _better_ have said – > > Imagine a man who lied all his life turning down the business deal rather than lying > > or > > Imagine a man who has lusted all his life turning the _other_ way when a woman leans toward him Yeah, but _non christans_ do make these kind of choices as well. And _christians_ do not ALWAYS do this. So what is you’re point here? Are you saying that christains are more LIKELY to do this? If so, that should be statistally displayable. Or are you just using “true christian” as a synonym for “good?” Or to be more exact, “good and members of a christain religion.” You seem to be denying the existance of “good” actions outside of christianty, which is kinda insulting. There are many many examples of people denying thier desires, even extremely strong desires, who are nonchristain. > [@](#): > > All right then … what about the _possibility_ that this opens up, however? If God truly doesn’t exist, if He’s _so_ hard to prove, why are there _any_ people that believe in Him? And we’re not talking about a small minority. We’re talking a wide cross-section of cultures, races, backgrounds, etc etc contain people that do believe in God. Point being, a wide cross section of cultures, races, backgrounds, etc etc contain people who belive in gods other than yours, or no god at all. But the fact that people belive something dosn’t make it true. And if we DID accept this arguemnt, why dosen’t it work for the buhdists and the muslims as well? > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## I also think that it is extremely arrogant to imply that the only end to a faith journey must be Christ. > > Well, if He _IS_ the only way, wouldn’t it be foolish to not say so? You don’t think He is but I do. What kind of person would I be if I said He _wasnt_ the only way when I believed He was? This seems to be the crux of the debate. Frankly, this statement IS pretty arrogant, no doubt about it. Restated, it is “All muslems, jews, buhddists, etc. (include every other religion and philosophy, now or in the past, as well as presumibly several other variants of christianity) have no spiritual factor in thier lives at all. Any claim to spirituality or faith on their part is either a deliberate lie, or a pathetic deception.” You have offered your own personal experience in your faith as evidence. You have NOT explained why we should accept this, while dening the _exact same claim_ made by a muslim or a hindu. This has been brought up before, but I’m bringing it up again, because it’s really the core of this debate. ## And I’d like to point out that a real christain, or an ethical humanist, wouldn’t criticize either my spelling, or my grammer. 🙂 “This opens so many questions! does vapor action work on souls? Can I enjoy butter as a soul?” ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/152 "2000-08-14T00:46:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* So you’d have some from both groups get healed and some from both groups not get healed. \*\* In other words, testing the efficacy of prayer is scientifically impossible. But what kind of screwy entity do you worship, if it lets friendless people die because they have no one to pray for them? > [@](#): > > \*\* > > There _will_ come a day, perhaps soon, that God _will_ forever take away the curse of sin! \*\* Your deity must dread that day- once sin is gone, free will is gone, and so the love which it so desires will be impossible, because humans will all be obedient little sinless puppets. > [@](#): > > \*\* > All those who chose to not serve God will be out of the picture, and God will take the rest of us to be with Him forever. And _you_ can be in on that if you want to be! \*\* You make it sound like once people are sent to ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL they’re conveniently swept under the rug, so you can forget about them. Tell me, FoG- how much will you enjoy heaven if you spend eternity watching people being tortured? It seems to me that it would be like sitting around with your deity, having some beers and watching that channel from “Videodrome.” > [@](#): > > \*\*God didn’t create imperfect beings. He created _beings_, period. Actually, they _were_ perfect, but they had free will to _choose_ to go a different direction. Unfortunately, they _did_ go in another direction. \*\* Was it a mistake for Eve to eat the apple? If it was a mistake, then how can you call her perfect? Perfect beings _by definition_ don’t make mistakes. And if it wasn’t a mistake, then why did your deity have to go to so much trouble to fix things? If it ain’t broke… > [@](#): > > \*\* > The balance: I come to God and ask for grace and strength to change, _receive_ that grace, and make choices based on the new strength He gave me. \*\* Yes, but as you will soon find out (as soon as someone is good enough to provide a link to the right thread,) I asked for that grace, and got a deafening silence. Very frequently during that time I prayed, “Thy will be done, and not mine.” So what happened? I got no answer at all. > [@](#): > > \*\* > All I can offer you is a suggestion to read the book I recommended earlier in this thread. It shows the life of a man who went through religion after religion, crossing them off his list one at a time. At the end of the line there was only one left … Christianity. \*\* Are you serious? Of all the thousands of religions in the world, past and present, this man spent enough time on _all_ of them to properly evaluate them? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/153 "2000-08-14T02:16:32Z")
**FriendofGod** said: > [@](#): > > Wow! Well, forgive me. As I was preparing to move on, I think God gave me something for you. Is there something going on at your job that is causing great confusion, matt? That is what I am sensing. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Oh, wow, now there’s some earth-shattering, nailed-it, mind-bogglingly-specific prophecy! :rolleyes: OK, how many in the room right now can say, in all honesty, that there is **not** “something going on at your job that is causing great confusion”? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? That’s condescending crap, FoG, the kind of overly-broad nonsense that is published every day in newspaper horoscopes around the world. Please, please, do not treat people with such intellectual contempt, as if they just full off of a turnip truck. It does **absolutely nothing** to legitimize your position. Nothing whatsoever. You sound like a lounge-act cold-reading huckster. “OK, I’m getting a picture . . . it’s a woman . . . is there someone here who has a woman in their life who is sick? You, sir, you have a woman in your life who is sick? A mother, or a sister . . .? A mother, OK . . . I’m getting a name, maybe beginning with an ‘m’ or an ‘s’ . . .” ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/154 "2000-08-14T02:43:06Z")
Are you guys _still_ in here, argueing? My goodness. :rolleyes: Peace, mangeorge (Any converts yet?) ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/155 "2000-08-14T02:47:07Z")
FoG, how about this: you tell me what book I read while I ate supper today, and I will give serious consideration to whether Jesus was really resurrected. Ok? I mean, you talk to this entity you call “God” everyday, you claim that it is omniscient, you’ve even claimed that it’s telling you things about people on this list which you would have no way of knowing otherwise. So let’s elevate this above the level of the Psychic Friends Network. You’re Elijah, the PSN are the priests of Baal. Sock it to us. Give us a simple, unequivocal demonstration of the power of your god. Personally, I think you’re a false prophet, and I find it very arrogant of you to presume to be receiving messages from God when you’re clearly just making the same sort of vague mumblings that TV psychics do. But maybe I’m wrong. So tell me: what book was I reading? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/156 "2000-08-14T03:11:58Z")
Hi. I’d just like to add some new data points. I think the demonstration of some sort of extra-material component to human consciousness would be something I’d have to think about a lot. I’m pretty sure that the human mind is constructed in a human brain, and a human brain is completely composed of ordinary matter…atoms and electrons and such. If you could show me that there was something else…say that an exact duplicate of a human brain–atrom for atom–was _not_ conscious, then we’d have something. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/157 "2000-08-14T04:09:01Z")
I thought I would check the board one more time before hitting the sack. While I am trying to go chronologically in my responses, I can’t let pldennison comments earlier tonight slide. pldennison, you said in response to the word God gave me: > [@](#): > > OK, how many in the room right now can say, in all honesty, that there is not “something going on at your job that is causing great confusion”? > > That’s condescending crap, FoG, the kind of overly-broad nonsense that is published every day in newspaper horoscopes around the world. Please, please, do not treat people with such intellectual contempt, as if they just full off of a turnip truck. It does absolutely nothing to legitimize your position. Nothing whatsoever. pl, please read this sentence very carefully: THIS IS NOT A CHILDISH LITTLE GAME. Of _all_ the responses I imagined you might give, this one takes the cake. To be honest, this reaction wasn’t even in my list of possibilities. Pardon me for asking, but _what_ are you smoking? Do you realize I wrestled with God for over an hour before hitting “Submit Reply”? Do you realize I argued _against_ my putting that in my message? I said to God, “It’s one thing when Christians are prophesying over each other and have a lot of mercy if you ‘miss it’ partly. God, this bunch will _brutalize_ me if I ‘miss it’ even one inch. Are you _sure_ you want me to do this?” And _WHERE_ do you get off being so cocky and sure that _everyone_ is going through a confusing issue at work?? I can say for certain that _I_ am not. You don’t know how many times during that hour I said to God, “You realize he might say ‘Hey, work is going just fine. Looks like you blew it.’” I was even going to wimp out and water it down to just ‘confusion’, but I felt that I needed to put ‘great’ confusion to be more specific. And where do you get off being so certain that I was just _straining so hard_ to try to “legitimize my position”? Look, you asked for something, I didn’t want to do it because of the context in which it was asked (aka it seemed like you were asking for a ‘magic show’), and as I started to move on to the next topic, God seemed to intervene and give me something for you. I typed it. Since you obviously don’t like it, _GET OVER IT_. If you really don’t want to be encouraged by the Lord, you could not have given Him a more forceful and passionate slap in the face. Now I know why this exchange took place between Jesus and the Pharisees in the Bible: [Quote] Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.’ He answered, ‘A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah …’" (Mt 12:38-39a) And you _wonder_ why God doesn’t do more to prove Himself to you. I have _never_ in 34 years heard someone react so contemptuously to a word from the Lord. If you want to believe that what I said was a “lucky guess” or something, fine, that’s your right. But don’t presume that you know so certainly what was happening on this end of the keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/158 "2000-08-14T04:39:46Z")
So you give a VERY vague guess about his work, then get upset when he questions what _you_ say is a divine revelation from God? I’ve seen fourth-rate stage magicians give better cold readings after their third martini! _This_ is the demonstration that is supposed to convince us?!? ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/159 "2000-08-14T06:39:05Z")
I don’t remeber that part of the bible, FOG, but was Jesus responding to the answer that he got after asking “What Would It Take to Prove God’s Existence to You?” Please don’t ask a question that you don’t want to hear the answer to. Pointing out that your relivation could easily apply to just about anyone is HARDLY “slapping God in the face.” At the VERY most, it could be interpreted as questioning your character. Which might be rude, but its an insult to you, not God. And it’s not necisarily an insult towards you. Calling you on overstepping good judgement isn’t necisarily an attack. You’ve complemented people for having a certain skepticism in regards to mircles in this thread. So why do you respond with so much hostility when someone actually does so? Telephone psycics DO make predictions like “You are having some kind of problem at work.” Haven’t you seen thier commercials? (If not, then you are truely blessed) I don’t want to be pedantic, but have you considered the possiblity that God led you to this little fracas with us for your benifit, not ours? Maybe He wants you to reconsider some of your own belifs? – “Are pumas really know for their flying” ---
**Author:** ![Chocobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Chocobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chocobo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498/160 "2000-08-14T06:58:10Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Ben \* > [@](#): > > \*\* > Was it a mistake for Eve to eat the apple? > > If it was a mistake, then how can you call her perfect? Perfect beings _by definition_ don’t make mistakes. > > And if it wasn’t a mistake, then why did your deity have to go to so much trouble to fix things? If it ain’t broke… > > \*\* I haven’t been keeping up with this thread, but I’ll respond this really quickly. I’ve asked that same question myself. Eve was perfect with free will. But you have to remember that there was another force at work. Satan, who was in the Garden with Eve tried to tempt her to take a bite of the fruit. Unfortunately, he succeeded. An example comes to mind: You’ve just built one of those ships in a bottle. You’ve just finished, and it’s _perfect_. Absolutely perfect. But then your little brother comes in, knocks it off the table, and parts of it break, but it’s (more or less) still intact. You do your best to try and repair it, and you know that one day you’ll succeed, but it takes time. (It’s not the greatest example, but it’ll do…I hope) We all face similar challenges everyday; we’re tempted to do something that’s not right, and we have a choice whether to do it or not. Sometimes we do it, and sometimes we don’t. Anyways, that’s my two cents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-it-take-to-prove-gods-existence-to-you/28498.md?page=9)