Unfortunately, your own reasoning skills have failed you. You did not consider whether what you saw as a flippant comment was not a cogent summary of a subject already discussed in some detail.
The admonition that reason is no more valid an epistemology than any other was appropriate, given the circumstance that the poster who invoked reason did so condescendingly and arrogantly, which he himself graciously admitted.
A debate may be held within any arbitary epistemology. Using a scriptural epistemology, for example, two debators can have at it, slinging Bible verses at each other the way you and I might sling logical implications.
Real life, in my opinion, calls upon an emprical epistemology far more frequently than it does a deductive one. Most people do not reason their way through their daily routine. They rely on their experience.
I think the news that skepticism is not relevant here will take many by surprise.
I “accept” all epistemologies, including the one implicated by SeatTime’s derision. Even including the one you are using here: bullyism.
Incidentally, I would like to say that SeatTime’s acceptance of responsibility for his inappropriate remark left upon me the impression of him or her as a thinking person of good character.
I freely admit that have not read every thread on this message board. I assumed, incorrectly apparently, that if you had been doing so, you would have included some kind of refrence to it.
Considering that the person to whom the comment was directed at seemed to be quite new, I assumed that if one was referencing a previous arguement, one would direct them to it, or at least mention it’s existance.
Obviously, it’s possible that I could miss such a reference. In which case, I assumed (incorectly, apparently) that I would be politly corrected.
Perhaps. I would respond that SeatTime’s irritation was fully appropriate, or at least understandable given the circumstances, though he perhaps overstepped himself. And I’m not quite sure how your response applied to SeatTimes statements. Perhaps you could enlighten me?
Actually, he confessed to arrogance, but not condisention. And since were talking about it, “Your own reasoning has failed you.” strikes me as more than a bit condisending. But that’s not germaine.
Yes, but for the action of debate to be recognizable as such, implies a certain level of acceptence of reason, doesn’t it? How does one define and conduct a purely scriptual, totally reason free debate?
I’m sorry. I wasn’t aware that every subject here had to be traced back to absolute first principals every time it was brough up. I would ask why so few of the other GD posts do so, though.
Can we stop being snide to each other now? My response was not intended to mock you or anyone else. I was trying to understand what you were saying, to the best of my obviously inferior abilites.
I wasn’t aware that I was being a bully. You seem to be offended by my responses, I apologize. I thought I was defending SeatTime from the same, in fact.
Summary: May I ask what came across as “bullyism” in my posts, so I can avoid it in the future? I apologize that I am not familiar enough with this board to understand all of your references, and by extention for whichever of my comments offended you. However, I do not feel that the hostility in your own response to me is justified, as it does not seem to be in jest.
–
“I wish they hadn’t lead up up the giant spider route if they wern’t able to deliver one.”
I admire your tenacity, an attribute that my God admires as well.
What came across as bullyism to me was the resurrection of a topic that had been settled. SeatTime and I had made peace with one another. To recap events, Friend of God was making an argument from a combined revelation and scripture epistemology, and yes, he was being a jerk. I warned him some time ago that, unless God would call upon his expertise when He made His judgements, that he should stop intimidating others with his judgementalism, and get out of that devil’s playpen as quickly as he could. He pooh-poohed my advice, and now has hoisted himself by his own petard.’
That notwithstanding, he stated correctly that God requires that we become like little children. It is a metaphor, and like all metaphors can be interpreted various ways if the context is unknown. But in that context, Jesus meant that we must have the innocence of children, and trust God the way children trust their Father (assuming their Father is a decent man). In other words, we must use an epistemology of faith.
SeatTime’s remark, born of frustration and impatience, equivocated the implication of the metaphor. I could have let it stand, but there are thousands of lurkers here who might fail to separate the grain from the chaffe in this jumble of ad hominem assaults. I simply wanted it known that an epistemology of reason is no more valid than an epistemology of faith. Particularly in matters metaphysical.
SeatTime then disarmed me totally by proving his or her own good character, whereupon I welcomed him to SDMB.
You are no friend of God, nor any friend of man. You claim God spoke lies to you, you spread those lies in His name. You are prophesying lies in Gods name. Whom have you served?
Here you have been mercifully unsuccessful. In this forum you have faced those among unbelievers who are wise, and intelligent, and see your vain posturing for what it is. Among the Faithful here, you have been given much good advice, and courtesy. Too much courtesy, I think.
For the second time, I rebuke you in Jesus’ name.
You said God spoke to you, and reported your own vain words to us. That is self-love, not the true love of Christ. You have sought to be the source of salvation, and quickly become the source of lies. Repent, and be gone. In His name I deny you. I commend you to His care, and love, if you have humility enough to seek Him now.
Tell your lies in your own name, lest you lead others away from the Lord. Or tie a millstone around your neck, and throw yourself into the sea. It would be better for you.
Does this mean his head is gonna start spinning around and he’s gonna spit up pea soup now? COOL!
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, one week, 14 hours, 52 minutes and 8 seconds.
5184 cigarettes not smoked, saving $648.10.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 0 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub]
In response to an earlier post, I’ve gotta say that I have no idea about Satan and free will, etc. I’ll have to do some research, and I’ll get back to ya on that.
And FoG, about the Lord speaking to you…I’m not sure how the Lord spoke to you. Because, IMHO, the Lord no longer speaks directly to people, such as He did in the Old/New Testament since He has no need to. That’s what the Bible is for. I believe that the Lord ‘speaks’ to us in our lives through the Bible, friends, and family. We pray, and then something in our lives happens that pertains to our prayers. That’s how I believe the Lord ‘speaks’ to us. I have no problem with Christians giving their opinions of what God wants, and giving Scripture to back it up. More power to them. BUT when you start claiming that God is telling you do or say certain things in His name, then I agree (on most points) with Tris.
Christians have no need for prophets in this day and age; we need Evangelists who are willing to go out and share the Gospel, the one and only true word of God.
Maybe if you could explain HOW God spoke to you, i.e. words, feelings, events…well, maybe then we’d all have some idea where you’re coming from, and might not be so hostile towards you and what you’re saying.
Greetings everyone! I hope you all had a good day.
I have been debating whether or not to continue point for point responses to each of these posts, simply because it’s sooo time consuming. At the same time, while I expect contrary beliefs to mine on this board, I am realizing more and more that I am wasting my time even trying to have a discussion with those of you that are darned and determined no matter what. It is also a waste to discuss anything with those of you who are determined to be harsh and rude.
So what I will do is pick up with my responses where I left off on page 3, but this time I will respond only to those who are polite. I am not interested in shouting matches. I am limiting my focus … I will respond to anyone who is open to politely discuss the issue of the possibility of God’s existence. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, even strongly, but I won’t respond to outright meanness toward me personally. I will ignore hateful and cruel comments.
My revised op still stands: What would it take to bring you to a place where you believed God is real? Again, to reiterate my goals one more time: I am not attempting to “prove” God to anyone. I will reiterate again that I believe solidly in God and have a personal relationship with Him. All I will attempt to do is point out an aspect of the issues you raise that you might not have considered before.
Having said that … it’s time for marathon posting! And for those of you who were griping that you don’t like to read them … don’t! No one’s forcing you to.
Cont’d on next post
And I repeat: You are here to convert those of us who you think you can convert, and to ignore those of us who you cannot. Your rudeness to us when you attempted a cold reading and failed was uncalled for, and claiming that attacking your motives was the same as attacking your god was juvenile.
Your indignation is not any more “rightious” than ours.
Okay, as I slide toward the bottom of page 3 of this thread, here is a comment or two from Dr. Lao:
I won’t pretend to fully understand the full ramifications of the issues you raised. I understand what you’re saying and actually you might be surprised to know that many born again Christians have wondered about this issue as well.
Let me point out one or two things to consider here. First of all, even though God’s most popular trait is Love, it isn’t His only trait. He is also a just Judge. This is an equally powerful aspect of God. He is also perfectly Holy. This is yet another aspect to consider.
All of these elements come into play here. As an illustration, let me equate God’s Holiness to nuclear power. Nuclear power is something you have to handle with the utmost level of precision and balance. One wrong move and you’re dead. You take one step into a room that contains unsealed nuclear radiation without proper protection, and you’re dead.
God’s Holiness is much the same way. Consider it like a reflex reaction. Imperfection comes into God’s presence and it’s instantly consumed and destroyed.
On top of that, there’s God’s Justice. He sees all of us and deems every one of us guilty of a life of sin against Him. Think about it. We are in a continual, daily, purposeful rebellion against our very own creator! He finds us guilty, and His Holiness determines that eternal separation from His Presence is the only just punishment.
In other words, and again I don’t pretend to fully grasp this, it would be unjust to let us get away with just not existing or being reincarnated or whatever. We truly and fully deserve, every one of us me included, to be separated from God for all eternity. Our crime against God is truly that great. And yes that’s an overwhelming thought.
Now you might not believe what I’m saying here, but consider this for a moment. If I am indeed correct on this point, is it not one of the most amazing demonstrations of love in all of history that God personally came to earth as a human being to make certain that there was an alternative to this?
I almost erred and said “He didn’t have to”, but actually He did. Why? Because of that famous aspect of His personality … His Love. He couldn’t deny any element of who He was. His justice demands our punishment, His holiness demands the severity of the punishment, but His love and mercy allows a way out of the punishment.
It amazes me every time I think about it. In fact, I’m glad I just typed that. My gratefulness to God is growing as I type. Thank you Lord for coming to save me. That’s why Christians call it “being saved”. We’re literally being rescued from the punishment we so richly deserve.
Dr. Lao, you also said this:
Can you tell I like your comments? I’m sticking with them quite a bit here!
Since I don’t know you I don’t know how you think about these things, but I’ve noticed that many on this board take things that God does in people’s lives and tries to turn them into coincidences. In other words, if you really want to, you can find a non spiritual explanation for just about any spiritual experience.
I don’t know if you do this or not. All I can say is this … the next time you hear a sappy-sounding Christian say that God did such-and-so in my life this week, I hope that you will consider for a moment that it’s entirely possible that He did indeed do something for that person. A complete skeptic looks for an alternative explanation and doesn’t even consider the possibility that God was, in fact, involved. I hope that you will consider the possibility of His involvement at the very least.
I guess what I’m getting at is I’m genuinely curious as to what level of evidence would satisfy you. For example, I’ve heard dozens of stories from friends who have had to raise money for missions trips. In some cases, they just raised the money and they were off. For some others, they raised part of the money but were left short, and had to trust God to somehow bring in the rest. And He would do it in amazing ways!
For example, some obscure refund check from months earlier would arrive in the mail the day before their trip, and it would contain the exact remaining amount they needed. Or in some cases, someone they didn’t even know would hear about their missions trip and give them a check for the exact amount they needed, not knowing the figures involved. There are multitudes of stories like this.
But a skeptic would have an excuse for all of the above. The guy who wrote the check had a lucky guess. It was by chance. The refund check was going to come anyway, and the fact that it came the day before the trip was just a lucky break.
I guess my concern for those on this board is that the standards you set are so high that you will always find something to object to. I hope you will prove me wrong!
The above example is just an example. I’ve seen many such things over the years. And there are always the dramatic ones. Maybe that’s what you’re talking about - the outright physical healing type miracles. Or a prophetic word that speaks directly to issues going on in your life (accurate words I must add ;)).
All I can say is this … I’ve seen skeptics come to healing and prophesy meetings at churches I’ve been to over the years, and I’ve seen some of them truly be moved by it. If you find a godly church in your area that regularly has meetings like that, I encourage you to check it out. You might just find the evidence you’re looking for!
Well! I’ll have to redefine “marathon posts”! Dr. Lao I’m glad I got to respond so thoroughly to your post. I hope it was thought provoking.
I didn’t know they could be treatable to that degree! I am so glad that it is unlikely to be lethal in your case. I am still sorry you are having to deal with it. If you are willing for me to, I would love to pray that God would give you comfort in the midst of the trial.
It occurs to me that I know nothing about the religious experience you had. Would you be willing to share what it was? It might help me understand better what was going on.
Well, all I can offer to your first sentence here is that God is a life-changer. You don’t just have an “experience” with Him, He changes who you are into something better than before. As for your last sentence … I don’t know. But again, until I know more about your experience I can’t really say much more.
Ben, you said:
Hmmmmmm. Your first sentence is interesting and I’m not sure how to answer it! All I can say is God created Adam and Eve sinless, but with free will. So in a way, that’s not the same thing as saying they were created “perfect”. They were created with no sin tainting them, but they had the choice to go toward sin.
Your second sentence is another good zinger. In a way, you do have the possibility of choosing to lead a perfect life … but you won’t be successful. I can choose to jump off the Empire State Building and survive, but it won’t work.
Your last sentence I can answer. Why did God give us the desire to do evil? The answer is: He didn’t. He gave us the choice between good and evil, but He didn’t give us the desire for evil. That’s something I believe that we developed on our own. In fact, when you come to Christ, one of the things He does is change your desire back toward wanting to do good again!
On the surface what you are saying sounds right, but there are a few holes. Basically … if everyone chooses you, it’s not really free will. You’re manipulating the situation in your favor. Truly making yourself vulnerable means giving people the choice to love or to reject you.
In other words, God didn’t say, “Ok, this person is going to have a choice and I see he will choose me, so I’ll let him exist.”, and then “This guy is going to choose to reject me so I’ll blot him out of existence”. He simply says, “I’m creating this person as a separate entity from myself. This person has a choice whether they will love me or not.” End of story. Yes He might then look ahead and see what that person will or will not choose, but the person already exists.
Unbelievable! I’m moving on to page 4!
Ura-Maru, hi by the way I don’t believe we’ve met :).
You said:
Well I hope you realize that what you just stated is not exactly common knowledge amongst the masses. I’ve never heard any of the things I originally said (“When you’re weak, He is strong”, “To find your life you must lose it”) in any context other than Christianity. I’m sorry you found it insulting. I’m curious about what other sources have made the same or similar statements, so feel free to fill me in if you wish.
But it’s not a game or magic show, that’s just it. God gives you wisdom to deal with the issues you are dealing with in your day and in your life. Truthfully, I have a funny image in my head of me doing what you suggested. I’m sitting there with a molecular biology book asking God to explain it to me for no real reason, and I can just picture Him looking at me incredulously, laughing, and saying with a grin “You’ve got to be kidding me!”
You seem to think that the two are mutually exclusive. They aren’t. God does both. He directs me, motivates me, etc etc to pursue my career and study and learn and use the gifts He’s deposited in me. No question about it. But also, there are always opportunities for God to show Himself in the workplace (and life in general).
Sometimes, despite all your training and understanding and experience, you come across a brick wall and you just don’t know what to do next. It’s in those moments that calling out to God can produce some rather amazing results.
Regarding being a minority you said:
Actually, while it wasn’t quite that bad, I was the most teased and picked on kid in school from first through sixth grade. Believe me, I know it’s no fun! I learned a lot through it though, and like everything, God even took a bad thing and somehow managed to turn it around and sqeeze some good out of it.
Regarding miracles happening overseas regularly, you said:
Truthfully, because the media could care less, apparently. I’m saying this based on numerous reports over the past few decades, scattered in various magazines and newspapers from various sources. But I’ll see if I can find any Internet links that might have some of the specific examples. I will even bet there’s a website or two dedicated to reporting this kind of stuff.
Regarding God revealing Himself in mysterious ways to people who’ve never had missionaries, you said:
I think I’m following here, but help me if I’m missing something. Are you saying your friend must be a weaker person because God had to put him in a home with Christian parents to get him saved, whereas a tribe that never had a missionary didn’t need any Christian influence at all to get saved, so that makes them “better”?
If that’s what you mean, I would have to disagree. Your friend simply had an easier and more obvious way to come to Christ. If anything, that’s what motivates us to go to the mission field … to make the gospel plain and simple to all who want to hear it.
Regarding how sinful we are, you said:
The only reason I know about it is twofold: God showed me my own sinfulness, and – (the atheist’s favorite reason of ALL TIME!) – the Bible says in rather stark terms that we are all inherently sinful. As a sampling, check this out:
Regarding my friend’s leg getting healed you said:
It probably is in her records! As for the five year old story, I should have clarified. I heard the story from someone who was there mere months after it happened. I didn’t meet the person in question until 5 years later. In fact it didn’t hit me until a few months after meeting her that she was the one I’d heard about! I asked her all about it and she confirmed it.
As for the bone not being broken, the doctor said it was.
As for it being a demon, all I can say is this – it’s all in who you’re asking. They weren’t asking a demon to do it, they were asking God to do it. The Bible says if you ask God for bread, He’s not going to give you a stone.
Regarding changing from bad habits to good, you said:
First, I am not using “true Christian” as a synonym for good. If anything, a “true Christian” is someone who realizes that no one is good, including themselves, and that their only hope of Godliness comes from closeness to God.
As for what I am saying, it’s simply this: every person I’ve ever seen come to Christ is changed by Christ in amazing ways. It’s different for different people. For example, you might have someone who’s smoked all their life who is also into pornography. They get saved and God immediately delivers them from smoking, but the porn gets weeded out of their life over time. Then take another person with the same two vices. For them, God delivers them immediately from porn, but the smoking takes time.
All I am testifying to is the life-changing power of God.
True, true, true, perhaps it wasn’t the best argument to make, ie pointing out that if so many people believe it, it must be at least possible.
As for my statement that Jesus is the only way, you said:
I can understand how it can sound arrogant, believe me. I might even think the same thing in your shoes.
All I can say in response is this: examine the logic of the religions you consider. See how they handle the inherent goodness of God and the imperfection of man. How do these two get reconciled?
Okay, that’s it for now folks. I’ll once again try to catch up sometime later this week. I’m 1/4 of the way through page 4. G’night :).
FriendofGod:
Regarding miracles happening overseas regularly, and why nobody seems to hear about them,
Oh, fuck me twice! The old evil-secular-humanist-atheist media bit is not only tiresome, it’s also nonsense. “numerous reports over the past few decades, scattered in magazines & newspapers”? Where are these reports? In what publication were they reported? What are the sources that you’re referring to? Here is an opportunity for you to actually accomplish something you say that you will do. Hell, I won’t even insist on links. Just tell me where you find examples of miracles happening. Anywhere. I seriously doubt, though, that you will. And yes, there are numerous websites dedicated to reporting this sort of thing, the problem is that they are equally as full of crap as your claim that such has happened.
Huh? So, you’re saying that you were sinful but didn’t know it. Fortunately, your deity was hanging about to demonstrate to you your sinfulness, and this is the atheist’s favorite reason, how? Maybe you oughta lie down there, Jasper, you’re starting to speak gibberish.
And as far as God changing different people different ways: I would like to think that if I was going to have faith in something, that it would at least be consistent.
I think thats kinda sad actually. When he gets stuck on something, and then has a burst of inspiration, he figures God did it, and thanks him, and takes no credit himself. Where’s the sense of pride or self worth? I know when I get stuck on some code, and then figure out a way to do it, I’m all excited and on cloud 9. And I congratulate myself, not some god.
Everything he does, he thinks God did for him, not that he did it himself. My mom is the same way. She recently moved to another state, and when I asked her about her work (She’s a self employeed accountant), she said God would provide some for her. I said why don’t you find some yourself? Relying on some mysterious being to provide you your livelyhood is just beyond me. But not believing in God was beyond her too. She kept insisting there was a “void inside me”. :rolleyes: Now that I think about it, I find that totally arrogant and totally Christian. Since I don’t believe in God, there must be something wrong with me, ie, a void.
And as a disclaimer, I was raised the Christian way obviously, but totally rejected it. If something goes wrong in my life, then it’s my responsibility. It’s not God testing me, it’s not God’s will, it’s the way the world works. Laying the blame of problems in your life on some mysterious being is nothing but a cop out and shows your to weak to deal with problems yourself. I agree with Ventura completely that “Religion is a crutch for the weak-minded”
I did a little online research this morning at one source to find just a sampling of recent articles on miracles happening around the world.
GLWasteful said:
Despite the rude tone of your post and despite my decision to generally not respond to those posts, I’m responding to this one because I do want to at least post a few links to articles so you can read and judge for yourself. I sincerely doubt GL or most on this board will be convinced by these articles, but for those with an open mind it might at least make you take a second look at things.
As for where I’ve read stories, two sources leap to mind: Charisma magazine (from which all 3 of these links come from) and a church bulletin insert I saw for years called “The Church Around the World”. Both sources not only report on miracles happening around the world, but also persecution against Christians in China and other countries, as well as testimonies of God’s life changing power.
Here are the links. One thing that might surprise you is the casual way in which miracles are reported. That’s because it truly is fairly commonplace overseas and this kind of reporting has been going on for decades. Again, this is just a small sampling.
Depending on how these links come out, you might have to copy and paste them into your address bar to get to them.
Libertarian, thanks for the kind words. I respect the views of you and Tris (even though we disagree), but FoG is just irritating to everyone. Maybe, someday I’ll be able to “see” things the way you do, but, alas, it isn’t today.
So, I’ve made your list of people to ignore? Pity! And referring to me as “close-minded” especially in a back-handed way is something that I assumed you would try to be above. Ah, well. Live and learn.
Now, the only instances I could find in English were reprints of the same article that you linked to. So, it looks like I will have to let you continue to believe that these wondrous miracles are happening, and the only media with the stones to report on it is Charisma magazine. Unless, that is, someone else is able to access a translation program, and put them in English. I tried, and where I work won’t let me do so.
Well, there was nothing casual at all in regards the articles. As a matter of fact, they used that breathless prose style that I have come to associate with evangelical publications. And while you claim that it is commonplace, only one of these articles offers names and places that can be independently researched.
The one that deals with Malaysia simply states that miracles have happened, and leaves it at that. If you really want people to pay attention to what you have to say, you might look into giving more complete information than that.
The one that deals with Almolonga, well, again I only found reprints of the article that you linked when I searched. However, there was this: http://www.cephasministry.com/joels_army_transformation.html
Lemme know what you think. I found it interesting.
And once more, just because you say that miraculous happenings are commonplace, and that they have been reported on for decades does not make it so. Thus far, you have given three instances of reporting, all of which come from the same source. Not the most objective source, either. As I stated in another thread, it’s not that I think Christian websites are untrustworthy, just terribly biased.
