# What would make you flee (or fight)? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 26, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803 "2018-06-26T22:15:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/61 "2018-06-30T06:25:00Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > The only thing that has kept me here so far is my dislike of learning new languages. Employment, connections, and everything await in Switzerland, but I really don’t want to learn German. Russian was bad enough, and that doesn’t even feel like you’re swallowing every other syllable. Many, many Westerners live in Thailand without learning a word of Thai. Amazing really, but it happens. Just find a pocket with lots of Westerners like Chiang Mai or Udon Thani if not Bangkok or Pattaya. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/62 "2018-06-30T07:34:40Z")
The world in general seems to be sliding towards fascism; there’s no place to flee to. I’d be more inclined to kill myself than run, it’s more likely to work. As a white male I’m one of the last they will come for however; I’m old enough that I have a good chance of dying first anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/63 "2018-06-30T09:23:00Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Does anyone realistically think it will get dictatorship levels of bad? This country has survived foreign wars, civil wars, great depressions, etc and our democracy stood intact. Yeah it’s like all those people who claim “It Can’t Happen Here!” is the book everyone should be reading because it’s an accurate road-map to Trump, except in that book the first thing the dictator does is immediately start throwing political opponents in prison camps and then when Congress objects shuts down congress. You generally don’t slide slowly into a dictatorship since pretty much every dictatorship starts with the guy in charge right after taking power immediately dropping all pretense of rule and starts arresting everyone and abolishing anything that could counter them since they know you can’t really take your time with that kind of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/64 "2018-06-30T10:11:10Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Does anyone realistically think it will get dictatorship levels of bad? It _can_ happen. How likely that is, is debatable but there’s nothing magically anti-fascist about the human beings in the US, any more than the human beings in Germany or Italy or anywhere else you care to name. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Will a bunch of white people in their 60s who feel threatened by multiculturalism really destroy our democracy when a civil war and a depression couldn’t? I guess I just don’t see it happening. I know some white people who fell that threatened by people who aren’t exactly like them. They’re rather frightening and I try to avoid contact with them as much as possible. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Plus when you consider that Trump’s base is dying off, their grasp on power won’t be forever. Doesn’t have to be “forever”, any length of time under a dictatorship would be too long. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I guess to me, as long as we have an independent judiciary we will be fine. Uh-huh. And now Trump is going to get to appoint another guy to the Supreme Court… ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/65 "2018-06-30T14:00:23Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Yeah it’s like all those people who claim “It Can’t Happen Here!” is the book everyone should be reading because it’s an accurate road-map to Trump, except in that book the first thing the dictator does is immediately start throwing political opponents in prison camps and then when Congress objects shuts down congress. You generally don’t slide slowly into a dictatorship since pretty much every dictatorship starts with the guy in charge right after taking power immediately dropping all pretense of rule and starts arresting everyone and abolishing anything that could counter them since they know you can’t really take your time with that kind of stuff. Yes, my feeling is that if something happens, it will happen quickly. We will all of a sudden wake up and not recognize where we are. And then it will be a mad rush to do…something. There would need to be a catalyst, though…another 9/11-level terrorist attack could do it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/66 "2018-06-30T15:59:44Z")
> [@C3](#): > > In this political climate in the U.S. and elsewhere, I’ve been thinking a lot about what would make me get out of dodge (watching the Handmaids Tale isn’t helping my mood). Good lord! You’ve opportunities later this year and in 2020 to set things right. Trump is not the Antichrist and you are in no danger. That said, Oz may be better for you anyway with better healthcare, better social security, more peaceful, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/67 "2018-06-30T17:03:34Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Good lord! You’ve opportunities later this year and in 2020 to set things right. Trump is not the Antichrist and you are in no danger. Lemme guess…straight, white, male baby boomer? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/68 "2018-06-30T18:15:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … And now Trump is going to get to appoint another guy to the Supreme Court… It might be a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/69 "2018-06-30T18:23:54Z")
> [@C3](#): > > Lemme guess…straight, white, male baby boomer? British. He’s most probably right though( says the straight, white, male, GenX’er ). The country isn’t crumbling so much as it is taking three steps back. It’s going to take time to undue some damage and bits may never quite right themselves entirely in my lifetime. But it is a disaster on a relative scale and I think anyone projecting actual tyranny is panicking a little too much. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/70 "2018-06-30T18:52:04Z")
What it would take to make me flee? 1. Having the legal right to take Celtling with me (Custody Courts would never OK it) 2. Having enough money to do it 3. Having a place to go that would give me the right to be a citizen and earn a living, and which would be a better place to live than this. AFAICT the places I could go to are either anarchic, and therefore worse than here, or too immigration regulated to allow me to go there and work. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/71 "2018-06-30T19:49:30Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Yeah it’s like all those people who claim “It Can’t Happen Here!” is the book everyone should be reading because it’s an accurate road-map to Trump, except in that book the first thing the dictator does is immediately start throwing political opponents in prison camps and then when Congress objects shuts down congress. You generally don’t slide slowly into a dictatorship since pretty much every dictatorship starts with the guy in charge right after taking power immediately dropping all pretense of rule and starts arresting everyone and abolishing anything that could counter them since they know you can’t really take your time with that kind of stuff. But my point is that we aren’t Germany of 80 years ago. We have stronger checks and balances. Our democracy is older and more stable. I don’t want to be naive and say it would never happen here. But I don’t want to compare an infant democracy in the midst of a great depression (like Germany) to our modern democracy with its long legal history. Granted, Germany at best got something like 40% of the vote. So Trump and his base being a minority is no sign that they can’t take over. I don’t know. I would hope if we move into full dictatorship mode the following will happen. [ul] [li]The judiciary will amp up and block all the agenda items (even getting his muslim travel ban was a struggle. Things far short of actual dictatorship get smacked down constantly). Also keep in mind something like 2/3 of the judges on the federal bench were appointed by Clinton or Obama. Many of the other 1/3 were appointed by Bush jr, who at the end of the day did believe in our constitution and democracy (unlike Trump). So his judicial picks will likely reflect that too. [/li] [li]Unions and other workers will engage in mass strikes, protests and sit ins[/li] [li]The international community (including many of our allies) will put political and economic pressure on us to change[/li] [li]Congress may get voted out of power and replaced by a party that respects the constitution[/li] [li]State attorney generals will file endless lawsuits. [/li] [li]Cities and states will refuse to cooperate with the federal government[/li] [li]Endless individual lawyers will get involved to gum up the works.[/li] [li]Law enforcement acting independent of the executive branch (special counsels, FBI, intel agencies, federal attorneys) do their part to bring back balance. [/li] [li]Hacktivist groups like Anonymous ramp up and make as much about our regime and the private lives of its inner circle as transparent as possible. [/li][/ul] etc. But again, Venezuela recently showed it is entirely possible to transition from democracy to dictatorship by just neutering all the independent levers of power one by one. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/72 "2018-06-30T20:07:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > . . And now Trump is going to get to appoint another guy to the Supreme Court… > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It might be a woman. It might be Michael Cohen. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/73 "2018-06-30T23:01:31Z")
BTW if you think US politics is bad, I’m told that Oz politics is on a whole new level. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/74 "2018-06-30T23:05:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m South African. My city finally [running out of wate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Town_water_crisis)r, a breakdown of the electricity grid (worse than it [already is](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskom#Power_shortage:_2007_-_2015)) or outright civil war are things that would make me leave. Otherwise, I’m good. > > I’ve been a peripheral member of an underground resistance before, but I don’t really see the circumstances for that arising again. > > I’d go to Europe or Canada if I had to flee. Come to NZ, we’ll hang out. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/75 "2018-06-30T23:27:09Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > But my point is that we aren’t Germany of 80 years ago. > > We have stronger checks and balances. Our democracy is older and more stable. I don’t want to be naive and say it would never happen here. But I don’t want to compare an infant democracy in the midst of a great depression (like Germany) to our modern democracy with its long legal history. > > Granted, Germany at best got something like 40% of the vote. So Trump and his base being a minority is no sign that they can’t take over. > > I don’t know. I would hope if we move into full dictatorship mode the following will happen. > > [ul] > [li]The judiciary will amp up and block all the agenda items (even getting his muslim travel ban was a struggle. Things far short of actual dictatorship get smacked down constantly). Also keep in mind something like 2/3 of the judges on the federal bench were appointed by Clinton or Obama. Many of the other 1/3 were appointed by Bush jr, who at the end of the day did believe in our constitution and democracy (unlike Trump). So his judicial picks will likely reflect that too. [/li] > [li]Unions and other workers will engage in mass strikes, protests and sit ins[/li] > [li]The international community (including many of our allies) will put political and economic pressure on us to change[/li] > [li]Congress may get voted out of power and replaced by a party that respects the constitution[/li] > [li]State attorney generals will file endless lawsuits. [/li] > [li]Cities and states will refuse to cooperate with the federal government[/li] > [li]Endless individual lawyers will get involved to gum up the works.[/li] > [li]Law enforcement acting independent of the executive branch (special counsels, FBI, intel agencies, federal attorneys) do their part to bring back balance. [/li] > [li]Hacktivist groups like Anonymous ramp up and make as much about our regime and the private lives of its inner circle as transparent as possible. [/li][/ul] > > etc. > > But again, Venezuela recently showed it is entirely possible to transition from democracy to dictatorship by just neutering all the independent levers of power one by one. Even if we don’t become Nazi Germany, what if we’re just a dysfunctional democracy with multiple states threatening to secede? Obviously nobody can predict the weather a year or two from now, but we have climate models. I think it applies for our political and economic system as well. We’re headed to a dark place. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/76 "2018-07-01T00:16:58Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Yeah it’s like all those people who claim “It Can’t Happen Here!” is the book everyone should be reading because it’s an accurate road-map to Trump, except in that book the first thing the dictator does is immediately start throwing political opponents in prison camps and then when Congress objects shuts down congress. You generally don’t slide slowly into a dictatorship since pretty much every dictatorship starts with the guy in charge right after taking power immediately dropping all pretense of rule and starts arresting everyone and abolishing anything that could counter them since they know you can’t really take your time with that kind of stuff. First of all, there are different types and different degrees of authoritarianism. Generally, the longer an authoritarian remains influential or in power, the more extreme the authoritarianism becomes, because over time, the authoritarian regime makes more enemies. Initially, the enemies might be a group of people everyone can agree on, like Jews in Nazi Germany, or like Kurds in Erdogan’s Turkey, or like Chechens in Putin’s Russia. But over time, they make more enemies. Even allies become enemies for failing to show loyalty. Dictatorship isn’t what you think it is - it is a gradual slide, not a one-time political carjacking. Authoritarians often fuck up and draw laughter in the process. They often don’t know what they’re doing at first. They try one tactic, and it doesn’t work. So they try another. And another. They often look inept initially because they’re taking the wheel of a machine they don’t know how to drive. But rather than learn how to drive the vehicle correctly, the way that a “normal” president might, they simply reconfigure the machine - until it rides and feels the way they want it to. And what they’re good at is public persuasion, and public manipulation. They’re masters at gas lighting. They’re masters at demonizing people and using these divisions to their advantage. Keep in mind again, they don’t always plan everything they do. They don’t always know what they’re doing. They test limits. They challenge conventional wisdom and political norms. They dare people to stop them. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/77 "2018-07-01T01:43:37Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > … > Will a bunch of white people in their 60s who feel threatened by multiculturalism really destroy our democracy when a civil war and a depression couldn’t? I guess I just don’t see it happening. > … > Plus when you consider that Trump’s base is dying off, their grasp on power won’t be forever. It’s not just older people. It’s kids, too. I’ve hear people in their 20s say “nigger” and “faggot”, and argue you can’t rape a prostitute. Ever read comment sections? There’s not a lot of people in their 60s commenting on YouTube. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It might be a woman. [wild, helpless, hopeless laughter] ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/78 "2018-07-01T02:20:17Z")
In Nazi Germany, the great majority of the people were perfectly happy with the peacetime administration. Aryans, that majority, did not flee, nor even resist. For them, there was basic freedom and economic prosperity. Problems only arose when they bit off more than they could chew, ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/79 "2018-07-01T05:51:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Dictatorship isn’t what you think it is - it is a gradual slide, not a one-time political carjacking. History shows otherwise. For example, Octavian, Franco, Mussolini, and Lenin all took power by force. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803/80 "2018-07-01T06:44:37Z")
> [@j666](#): > > … [wild, helpless, hopeless laughter] What’s wrong with a woman? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-make-you-flee-or-fight/816803.md?page=5)