# What would Nietzsche say to Ayn Rand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002 "2004-05-13T19:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dhsapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@dhsapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhsapiens)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/1 "2004-05-13T19:38:59Z")
Supposedly Neitzsche was a big fan of mathematical determinism, whereas Ayn was a big fan of free will. I wonder what they’d say to each other? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/2 "2004-05-13T19:48:12Z")
I certainly do not think this is a GQ. However, I think Friedrich would think Ayn was pretty cute. However, he was pretty dead when she entered this world. Seriously, Nietzsche’s complexities would have bored the hell out of Ayn Rand. I wish I had more time to get into this, maybe when it hit’s GD if it does get that far. ---
**Author:** ![alimarx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@alimarx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alimarx)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/3 "2004-05-13T19:54:43Z")
AR: “Nietzsche?” FR: “Gesundheit.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/4 "2004-05-13T19:54:48Z")
General Questions is for questions with factual answers. This is more of a Great Debate. I’ll move this to Great Debates for you. **DrMatrix** - GQ Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/5 "2004-05-13T19:57:16Z")
Keep in mind that Nietzsche’s political ethic was greatly influenced by Dostoevsky’s _Underground Man_. Rand viewed Nietzsche’s egoism (as opposed to her own) as irrational and coercive. As he wrote, “the striving for excellence is the striving to overwhelm one’s neighbor, even if only very indirectly or only in one’s own feelings.” — Notes in the preface for the second edition of _Morgenröthe_. She considered her own brand of egoism to be rational, and based on self-interest, an ethic that she derived deductively from the original premise that “existence exits”. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/6 "2004-05-13T20:02:46Z")
I’ve always heard Nietzsche was a bit awkward with women, the covnersation probably wouldn’t go that well. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/7 "2004-05-13T20:04:10Z")
> [@dhsapiens](#): > > Supposedly Neitzsche was a big fan of mathematical determinism, whereas Ayn was a big fan of free will. I wonder what they’d say to each other? Who says determinism and free will are mutually exclusive? 😃 But seriously, I seem to remember someone describing Rand as “the poor man’s Nietzsche”. Of course Rand didn’t go as far as Nietzsche did in her philosophies, but they did have some similaries. (However, since I haven’t really read much of either, I can’t be more specific than that.) ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/8 "2004-05-13T20:05:12Z")
“Ayn Rand is dead.” Nietzsche “So are you, Poopiehead.” Ayn Rand Tris ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/9 "2004-05-13T20:09:00Z")
He’d say, “Ayn? AYN! Lemme outta this box!!!” “Books? I’ve written many books…” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/10 "2004-05-13T21:00:09Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > He’d say, “Ayn? AYN! Lemme outta this box!!!” > > “Books? I’ve written many books…” That is \*supremely \* funny! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/11 "2004-05-14T00:02:57Z")
FN: “Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.” AR: “Ka-boom” (explodes) ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/12 "2004-05-14T00:21:31Z")
How _you_ doin’? ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/13 "2004-05-14T00:47:38Z")
“Doesn’t this sound like the opening of some joke?” “Indeed it does, Nieti, indeed it does.” “Don’t call me Nieti, Annie.” ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/14 "2004-05-14T01:00:23Z")
What would Nietsche say? “THAT’S how you define ‘altruism’? Buy yourself a dictionary, lady!” ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/15 "2004-05-14T02:35:29Z")
> [@dotchan](#): > > But seriously, I seem to remember someone describing Rand as “the poor man’s Nietzsche”. Of course Rand didn’t go as far as Nietzsche did in her philosophies, but they did have some similaries. (However, since I haven’t really read much of either, I can’t be more specific than that.) I did my thesis on Nietzsche, and I came across a footnote in one article that actually called Rand the K-Mart version of Nietzsche and said it was a shame that so many young people were reading her books instead of the N-man himself. I don’t remember the author, but I may have mention of it among my notes…I’ll look later. As to whether Nietzsche would be hitting on Ms. Rand, some recent biographers seem certain that Nietzsche was gay. However, I have yet to see any convincing support for this – it seems just as likely to me that he was heterosexual but just lousy at dealing with women. So whatever he might have wanted to say to her may well have earned him a slap. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/16 "2004-05-14T04:01:27Z")
Over at the Objectivist Center they held [a “Cyber Seminar” in the spring of 2000.](http://www.ios.org/obj-studies/courses-cyber-nietzsche.asp) Titled “_Nietzsche and Objectivism_” it discussed many aspects of the two philosophies. When they finally get down to comparing the two philosophies in section 4, the author of the [introductory essay](http://www.ios.org/obj-studies/cyber/SH4intro.asp) concludes: > [@](#): > > My judgment is that the differences between Nietzsche and Rand greatly outweigh the similarities. They are both atheists, they both are naturalistic in their approach to consciousness and values, and they are both hostile to altruism. Yet they share very little positive philosophy: they disagree on virtually every fundamental issue in metaphysics, epistemology, and human nature; and they disagree about the proper positive standard, means, and end of ethics. FWIW I’ve not studied Nietzsche enough to give much of an opinion. What little I know (from reading the [Wikipedia article about him](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche) indicates that his idea of “Will to Power” seems quite a bit different than Rand’s Rational Self Interest. Especially as (wikipedia seems to imply) he tried to apply it to inanimate objects and processes. Rational Self Interest was clearly deliminated to apply only to humans. ---
**Author:** ![dhsapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@dhsapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhsapiens)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/17 "2004-05-14T13:55:33Z")
The tale I heard was that Neitzsche was just cruddy in dealing with girls, not gay, although who knows. Is it true that he died of an STD contracted from his first and only sexual experience with a woman? I read Human All Too Human and thought he sounded pretty bitter about the fairer sex, but that doesn’t prove anything. I think they’d hate each other’s philosophy, although they do resemble one another on the surface. Bottom line: Neitzsche believed that morality and virtue were totally subjective (Beyond Good and Evil) whereas Rand believed that virtue should be the same for everyone. Neitzsche didn’t really believe in free will either, without which Rand’s philosophy (and most of her fiction) falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/18 "2004-05-14T14:35:20Z")
> [@dhsapiens](#): > > The tale I heard was that Neitzsche was just cruddy in dealing with girls, not gay, although who knows. Uh…isn’t that almost exactly what I just said? > [@](#): > > - > > Is it true that he died of an STD contracted from his first and only sexual experience with a woman? \*It is widely believed that Nietzsche frequented brothels as a young man, and contracted syphilis from a prostitute in this way. However, there is also evidence to that this belief originated from an intentional smear campaign. Nietzsche was indeed diagnosed with syphilis after the breakdown which led to his being committed, but even at the time his doctors were not confident in this diagnosis. Some of his symptoms were not consistent with the disease. He also survived longer than would be expected. Quite a few biographers, historians, and doctors today believe that he probably had a brain tumor instead. But either way, history does not tell us much about the man’s sex life. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/19 "2004-05-15T00:10:45Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > How _you_ doin’? Sputter, snort, inhale root beer. Now THAT is funny. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/20 "2004-05-15T00:21:39Z")
“Hey Ayn, do you _philosophize_ here often?” With pickup lines like that, no wonder he didn’t do well with the “chicks”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002.md?page=2)