# What would Nietzsche say to Ayn Rand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002 "2004-05-13T19:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/21 "2004-05-15T00:29:37Z")
Ayn Rand had a meeting with Nietzsche But found him annoyingly scrietzsche This dame was so bugged That she wrote _Atlas Shrugged_, Which proved nothing short of just pietzsche. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/22 "2004-05-15T00:38:23Z")
It’s interesting that Rand had originally intended to use a Nietzsche quotation, “The noble soul has reverence for itself,” as _The Fountainhead_’s epigraph. Until the writing of that novel, she had been pretty much a follower of Nietzsche, but when she started thinking on a more philosophical level, she had to abandon many (but certainly not all) of his ideas. For example, Nietzsche’s concept of “reason” included things like emotions and intuition, whereas for Rand reason is simply reason – and our emotions are a consequence of our thinking or lack thereof. And for Nietzsche, the reason and ethics of the \*Ubermensch \*are self-contained and personal, and therefore subjective, and beyond the reach of the masses. For Rand, nothing is subjective, and the label “Rational Man” is as appropriate for Eddie Willers as for John Galt. I’m sure the two of them would stay up 24/7 discussing their hatred of Kant. Then, in spite of (or because of) his problems with women, she would demand that they have an affair. And acknowledging her as a true \*Ubermensch, \* how could he refuse? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/23 "2004-05-15T01:56:28Z")
I’ve read some books about Nietzsche (none of the books **by** him) and I remain unclear – what, exactly, is this Nietzschean _Ubermensch?_ Is it the same as Rand’s Alienated Genius (Howard Roark, John Galt, etc.), or is it something different? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/24 "2004-05-15T01:57:35Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > It’s interesting that Rand had originally intended to use a Nietzsche quotation, “The noble soul has reverence for itself,” as _The Fountainhead_’s epigraph. I’m not asking for a cite or anything, but can you tell me where you heard this? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/25 "2004-05-15T02:09:41Z")
**BrainGlutton** , It seems to me that there is little (or at most only a slight) similarity between \*[_Ubermensch_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DCbermensch) and Ran’s conception of the Rational Man. As **panache45** noted, the Rational Man is simply someone who lives his life according to objective and rational principles. According to that Wikipedia page the Ubermensch has more to do with rejecting God and discovering materialistic principles to live one’s life by. Therein lies a possible similarity. Rand’s Rational Man would live according to principles in accordance with objective reality and the Ubermensch would live according to principles applicable to the material worls as opposed to the spiritual. However, Nietzsche’s Will to Power implys an entirely different sort of ethic than Rands rational self interest. just MHO ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/26 "2004-05-15T05:42:05Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > I’m not asking for a cite or anything, but can you tell me where you heard this? Rand put it in the “Forward” of a later edition. Pretty much any paperback you pick up today will have that in it. She goes to great length to distance herself from Nietzsche’s overall philosophy and to clarify that she only liked the emotional appeal that that particular quote had for her. ---
**Author:** ![dhsapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@dhsapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhsapiens)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/27 "2004-05-15T16:48:02Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Ayn Rand had a meeting with Nietzsche > But found him annoyingly scrietzsche > This dame was so bugged > That she wrote _Atlas Shrugged_, > Which proved nothing short of just pietzsche. Evie, you limerick fruitcake, I think I love you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/28 "2004-05-16T22:53:25Z")
[“Nietzsche is pietzsche, but Sartre was smartre.”](http://mcraeclan.com/Graeme/sayings.htm) NB: I hope that few people who’ve had (or tried) to slog through **Being and Nothingness** would agree with that statement. I’ll take the more-lunatic and simplistic ravings of F.N. over the interminable, deliberately obscurantist coffeehouse noodlings of J-P.S. any day. Besides, F.N. wrote more concisely, and that’s no trivial merit. As for the OP, wouldn’t Nietzsche likely have had some personal difficulties in dealing with AR as an equal and rival, due to her 1) being female and 2) being Jewish (by birth, not by conviction)? And I have no idea how he would have viewed her having worked as a scriptgirl and screenwriter in Hollywood… [hijack] Let alone, hee-hee, Nietzsche’s reaction to learning how comic-book artists and Hollywood appropriated his _Ubermensch_ to create the “Superman” icon. There’s at least one thing the two writers would have shared: their sense of alarm, consternation, and disgust regarding less-than-faithful adaptations of their works.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/29 "2004-05-17T02:56:43Z")
What can a great thinker say to a free-thinking fluffhead when they meet? Maybe this… **Ayn Rand** : (self-importantly) I am the Misses Ayn Rand . **Nietzche** : (rearrangingly) ! Aha! As yn Determinisms? You think? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/30 "2004-05-17T03:15:08Z")
> [@The Scrivener](#): > > As for the OP, wouldn’t Nietzsche likely have had some personal difficulties in dealing with AR as an equal and rival, due to her 1) being female and 2) being Jewish (by birth, not by conviction)? Nietzsche’s true opinions on women are unclear. He wrote some pretty nasty things about them in his books, but it’s hard to say how much was serious and how much was sarcastic. Some quotes, like the infamous “You are going to women? Don’t forget your whip!”, are also nowhere near as offensive in-context as they look taken out of it. I think it’s safe to say the guy was kind of…confused…when it came to the Frauen. However, among his personal friends were several strong-minded, intellectual women. One of the most damnable, and unfortunately persistent, lies ever told about Nietzsche is that he was anti-Semetic. He was not. He had problems with traditional Jewish religious morality – the same problems he had with traditional Christian morality – but during his life he was very clear about being disgusted by anti-Semitism. He was unwilling to tolerate such attitudes even from his own family or close friends like Richard Wagner. And FWIW, one of Nietzsche’s earliest translators was a Jewish Englishwoman, a lady he apparently thought highly of. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/31 "2004-05-17T04:57:39Z")
So Nietche or however you spell it had a rough time getting it on with the chicks. If you were a chick, would you dig his mustache, or would you bail? ---
**Author:** ![IUchem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@IUchem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IUchem)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/32 "2004-05-17T05:17:37Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > “Ayn Rand is dead.” Nietzsche > > “So are you, Poopiehead.” Ayn Rand > > Tris Let’s not forget Ayn Rand was a speed freak. And Nietzsche could only stomach cheese, red wine, and opiates . . . ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/33 "2004-05-17T05:56:23Z")
> [@Enola Straight](#): > > If you were a chick, would you dig his mustache, or would you bail? I think that walrus look was sort of the mullet of the 1870s. It must have seemed cool at the time, but in retrospect…yeesh. Judging from [this photo of adolescent Freddie](http://www.utas.edu.au/docs/humsoc/philosophy/1styr/glossary_items/nietzsche1.html), which is to my knowledge the only existing one showing him sans 'stache, he might have been kinda cute in a dour 19th century way behind all that facial hair. Actually, now that I look at him, he bears an uncanny resemblance to [Christina Ricci](http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/images/future_plumpers/christina_ricci/cr_spin1.jpg). Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/34 "2004-05-17T06:02:09Z")
> [@Enola Straight](#): > > So Nietche or however you spell it had a rough time getting it on with the chicks. > > If you were a chick, would you dig his mustache, or would you bail? With someone as obviously adverse to homosexuality as to register their board name with the word “straight,” you probably wouldn’t be considering men finding him attractive? Regarding this topic, I think the conversation would go something much like a GD thread that would involve several warnings from MEB and Gaudere. Granted, I don’t hold a great deal of respect for philosophy, and less for logic. Needless to say, I disagree strongly with both of them, but then, most armchair philosophers (and SDMB posters) can’t quite wrap their heads around the concept of metaphysics. Unfortunately, this puts me on the grounds of being around a lot of fundamental Christians… so I guess I’ll call myself a Marxist to scare them away. Ah, that’s better. I do find it funny when people take the Dostoyevskian “superfluous man” seriously, though. \Holy crap, I’m a hippie!\ ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/35 "2004-05-17T06:03:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I think that walrus look was sort of the mullet of the 1870s. It must have seemed cool at the time, but in retrospect…yeesh. I can’t wait for the god damned goatee and spiky hair thing to enter that phase. Sheeesh. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/36 "2004-05-17T12:21:11Z")
He’d say: _Ayn? What the Hell kind of name is Ayn?_ Only he’d say it in German. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/37 "2004-05-18T03:34:10Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > With someone as obviously adverse to homosexuality as to register their board name with the word “straight,” you probably wouldn’t be considering men finding him attractive? > > Regarding this topic, I think the conversation would go something much like a GD thread that would involve several warnings from MEB and Gaudere. Granted, I don’t hold a great deal of respect for philosophy, and less for logic. Needless to say, I disagree strongly with both of them, but then, most armchair philosophers (and SDMB posters) can’t quite wrap their heads around the concept of metaphysics. > > Unfortunately, this puts me on the grounds of being around a lot of fundamental Christians… so I guess I’ll call myself a Marxist to scare them away. Ah, that’s better. > > I do find it funny when people take the Dostoyevskian “superfluous man” seriously, though. > > \Holy crap, I’m a hippie!\ I"m not adverse to homosexuality…but I am a bit adverse to a seriously buggin’ 'stache. I mean…_dude_ …that faceful of hair is a SERIOUS cooty farm! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/38 "2004-05-18T04:07:12Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > He’d say: > > _Ayn? What the Hell kind of name is Ayn?_ > > Only he’d say it in German. Brings up another point - a German and a Russian Jew? Man. That doesn’t bode well. > [@Enola Straight](#): > > I"m not adverse to homosexuality…but I am a bit adverse to a seriously buggin’ 'stache. > > I mean…dude …that faceful of hair is a SERIOUS cooty farm! lol, nice. Was afraid you were gonna flame me or something O\_o ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/39 "2004-05-18T04:28:15Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Regarding this topic, I think the conversation would go something much like a GD thread that would involve several warnings from MEB and Gaudere. Granted, I don’t hold a great deal of respect for philosophy, and less for logic. Needless to say, I disagree strongly with both of them, but then, most armchair philosophers (and SDMB posters) can’t quite wrap their heads around the concept of metaphysics. ??? Do you mean you disagree strongly with MEB and Gaudere, or that you disagree strongly with philosophy and logic? To say you disagree with philosophy is meaningless, because there are so many different philosophies and philosophical systems. To say you disagree with logic is a symptom of insanity. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002/40 "2004-05-18T05:04:39Z")
For what it’s worth, Rand had a very strong dislike of facial hair. She’d probably call Nietzsche a hippie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-nietzsche-say-to-ayn-rand/245002.md?page=3)