# What would realistically / actually happen if Trump invaded Canada and / or Greenland, Mexico, Panama, etc? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [January 13, 2025, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898 "2025-01-13T03:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/81 "2025-01-14T06:11:58Z")
Me: Old War I == World War I Cold War == Something else. I may have misunderstood FlikTheBlue though. I posted the words of Woodrow Wilson because he led the US during WWI. I think his speech stands on its own. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/82 "2025-01-14T08:10:46Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I have the suspition **FTB** thinks Pinochet, Videla, Franco, the Shah of Persia and Mobutu Sese Seko were on the side of Lawful Good. Any other interpretation runs into contradictions. And as Ayn Rand wrote: “Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.” And as she is **[Shirley](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM2K7sV-K74)** on the side of Lawful Good, the rest follows easily: Nixon and Kissinger were the good ones, and so were their friends, QED. No. Those guys you listed were all authoritarian assholes. Looking at my own post, I definitely overstated my case, especially when it comes to foreign affairs. Humans are flawed, and even those in purported service of liberal democracy will screw it up at times, especially when it comes to foreign countries. But the evidence clearly shows that in the struggle between government by a liberal democracy vs. government by authoritarian asshole; the liberal democracies do better. Obviously the NATO countries were better off than the Warsaw pact. South Korea (eventually, after getting past their own authoritarian as shoes phase) better than North Korea. Japan and Taiwan better off than mainland China and the southeast Asian nations living under authoritarian regimes, and so on. Democracy doesn’t guarantee good results, especially not when it comes to international relationships. But authoritarianism guarantees bad results. I can’t think of my examples within the last several hundred years where a nation had prospered under an authoritarian government. Even if one does go back those hundred plus years, all the examples would be imperialist nations that prospered off of inflicting misery on others. The only actual examples I can think of are countries that occasionally get an enlightened, benevolent, authoritarian. But even that comes to an end when the enlightened ruler dies or gets overthrown, and things revert to the having an authoritarian ruler = things suck. To the extent that the west is going authoritarian, whether here in the US, or Hungary, or South Korea, or anywhere else that the people are opting to return to those ways, we’re just screwing ourselves over. To make a long story short, it’s democracy that’s on the side of lawful good, at least it’s the only system that really has that potential, barring the occasional, extremely rare, enlightened and benevolent authoritarian. The only such leader I can think of off the top of my head within the last several hundred years is Gorbachev, and his efforts ended up being wasted by the people that followed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/83 "2025-01-14T08:31:03Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I can’t think of my examples within the last several hundred years where a nation had prospered under an authoritarian government. Singapore seems to do OK, and China seems pretty prosperous without lessening its authoritarianism. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > it’s democracy that’s on the side of lawful good Democracy is morally neutral. There’s nothing inherently good about it, it’s only as good as the people that make it up ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/84 "2025-01-14T08:46:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Singapore seems to do OK, and China seems pretty prosperous without lessening its authoritarianism. > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > it’s democracy that’s on the side of lawful good > > Democracy is morally neutral. There’s nothing inherently good about it, it’s only as good as the people that make it up I’ll give you Singapore. China is economically prosperous, but at the cost of having to be loyal to the ruler / ruling party or risk being disappeared. To clarify, democracy gives us a better chance at having good results than authoritarianism. To find good authoritarian rulers one has to scour the history books for the likes of the better Roman or Chinese emperors, or some of the Arab rulers like Saladin during the time when Europe was in what used to be called the dark ages, or even the occasional ruler in Europe from that time like Charlemagne. For democracies the list is long, long even if we stick to just the 21sr century. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/85 "2025-01-14T09:42:27Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > China is economically prosperous, How else are you going to quantify “prospered”? > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > at the cost of having to be loyal to the ruler / ruling party or risk being disappeared. McCarthy blacklisting was only _marginally_ better. Let’s not pretend the US didn’t also practice groupthink while ostensibly a NG democracy. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > To clarify, democracy gives us a better chance at having good results than authoritarianism. Sure, it’s the best system we currently have to suppress evil people. That doesn’t make the system itself good. It just means mostly/sometimes the good people outweigh the bad. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > To find good authoritarian rulers one has to scour the history books for the likes of the better Roman or Chinese emperors The people who oversaw brutal regimes of conquest, slavery, institutionalized torture and occasional human sacrifice? I know “good” is relative, but even the cuddliest Roman or Chinese emperor would make most current authoritarians look like Quakers in comparison. Saladin and Charlemagne were both aggressive expansionist conquerors. There’s nothing good about that. > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > For democracies the list is long I’m willing to bet not as long as you think (see M4M’s Wilson example). Jimmy Carter, maybe, is LG. No other US president in my lifetime has been. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/86 "2025-01-14T10:51:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How else are you going to quantify “prospered”? > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > at the cost of having to be loyal to the ruler / ruling party or risk being disappeared. > > McCarthy blacklisting was only _marginally_ better. Let’s not pretend the US didn’t also practice groupthink while ostensibly a NG democracy. > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > To clarify, democracy gives us a better chance at having good results than authoritarianism. > > Sure, it’s the best system we currently have to suppress evil people. > > That doesn’t make the system itself good. It just means mostly/sometimes the good people outweigh the bad. > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > To find good authoritarian rulers one has to scour the history books for the likes of the better Roman or Chinese emperors > > The people who oversaw brutal regimes of conquest, slavery, institutionalized torture and occasional human sacrifice? I know “good” is relative, but even the cuddliest Roman or Chinese emperor would make most current authoritarians look like Quakers in comparison. > Saladin and Charlemagne were both aggressive expansionist conquerors. There’s nothing good about that. > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > For democracies the list is long > > I’m willing to bet not as long as you think (see M4M’s Wilson example). Jimmy Carter, maybe, is LG. No other US president in my lifetime has been. I’m grading on a curve, comparing leaders to their contemporaries and those just before and after them. Otherwise we wind up with a very small list of people who qualify as good guys. I disagree with that for the obvious reason that up until around 10 or so years ago, the world and been slowly becoming a bitter place since some time roughly in the 1700s or so. Obviously there were lots of horrific things during that time, and progress was usually in a 3 steps forward 2 steps back manner. But progress was made, so either we say that the progress was by bad guys who did good things, or by flawed good guys who were a product of their time. I prefer the latter, or else we end up in a world where the list of good leaders looks something like Jimmy Carter, Mikhail Gorbachev, Nelson Mandela, and maybe one or two others. And clearly all the progress over the past few hundred years wasn’t made by just those three guys. To stick with Americans, since those are the leaders I’m most familiar with, I’d list Washington, Adams (both of them), Lincoln, Roosevelt (both of them), Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, Clinton, Obama, and Biden. All those men, even Carter, were flawed, and yes. I know about the founding fathers being slave owners, FDRs internment of Japanese Americans, Obama keeping Gitmo open, and so forth… But none the less they did move us forward as whole. That doesn’t mean I think they were all good guys. Woodrow Wilson was mentioned above as being a noteworthy bad guy. I’d add Andrew Jackson as another who was especially awful. But overall we’ve done better with democracy than we would have with a dictator. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/87 "2025-01-14T11:41:56Z")
Or the Great Man theory of history is bunk and the progress was made _in spite of_ all those guys by the nameless masses. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/88 "2025-01-14T12:23:29Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The US was LG. That would surely be news to its victims, both internal (Blacks, Native Americans, Leftists…) and external (Central and South America for starters, about a million to five million Vietnamese (and that’s counting only the dead), and too many others to count). Lawful good and lawful evil are game categories that do not work in the real world, to the extent that they do both the US and URSS where at best LN, and if you get strict CN to CE. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/89 "2025-01-14T13:42:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > I can’t think of my examples within the last several hundred years where a nation had prospered under an authoritarian government. > > Singapore seems to do OK, and China seems pretty prosperous without lessening its authoritarianism. One has to be careful about unqualified citations of “prosperity”. Singapore is tiny, making it a special case that isn’t necessarily scalable, but more importantly, it has one of the highest wealth disparities in the developed world. That’s a real problem when using it as a model for prosperity. China is the opposite; it’s very large both geographically and in population, and has historically been underdeveloped. Its ostensible prosperity comes from rapid industralization as it became the manufacturing center of the world, but again, look closer and things aren’t so rosy. China has **[a pretty abysmal standard of living](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country)** – lower than (for instance) Serbia, Panama, India, or Belarus. It’s easy to attract manufacturing if you pay your workers practically nothing. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > it’s democracy that’s on the side of lawful good > > Democracy is morally neutral. There’s nothing inherently good about it, it’s only as good as the people that make it up No, it isn’t. The moral standing of democracy stems from the fact that when it’s working, it’s a powerful bulwark against authoritarianism. The weakness of democracy is that in order to function, it requires an informed and engaged populace. Without that, casting ballots isn’t democracy; it’s just a meaningless exercise performed by uninformed morons fed a steady diet of disinformation by self-serving plutocrats and aspiring authoritarians. Cite: the USA last November. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/90 "2025-01-14T14:23:52Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > One has to be careful about unqualified citations of “prosperity” Sure, but prosperity is not _my_ standard for judging a country (I prefer something like the Social Progress Index or similar, which _does_ downvote the authoritarian states), it’s just the term I was responding to. > [@wolfpup](#): > > No, it isn’t. Are you saying democracy has an independent existence from the people who make it up? Because the rest of your counter is all about how it’s the people that fail democracy, like there’s some Platonic democracy outside the “uninformed morons”. > [@wolfpup](#): > > when it’s working That’s a very big “when”. One could almost call it special pleading. “Democracy works - except when it doesn’t” isn’t exactly a killer argument - and I say this as someone who actually is more of a cheerleader for true democracy\* than almost anyone else I can think of on these boards. \* By which I mean sortition, the only _true_ democracy. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/91 "2025-01-14T14:40:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you saying democracy has an independent existence from the people who make it up? Of course not. Democracy is a model, or more accurately, a principle – the principle that a people have an intrinsic right to collectively determine their own destiny, and thus is a categorical rejection of authoritarianism. It’s that **principle** that has moral standing. Actual implementations will vary, and all will be flawed in one way or another, and invariably undermined by the morons whose presence we all have to suffer. It’s why the flood of lies and disinformation constantly promulgated by Trump and his minions is such a grave existential thread to American democracy, to America itself, and, indeed, to the world. But that principle should be sacrosanct and is the best approach to governance that we know. Or as Churchill famously said, “_No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time._” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/92 "2025-01-14T14:47:59Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s that **principle** that has moral standing I disagree - Principles don’t have moral standings. Their implementations do. It’s only when they have real-world effects that their actual moral impact is realised. The Authoritarian model has the Wise Good King Everyone Loves embedded in it just as the Democracy model has the Rule by Evil Majority embedded in it, right at the core - neither is _inherently_ morally good or evil. > [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s why the flood of lies and disinformation constantly promulgated by Trump and his minions is such a grave existential thread to American democracy Trump _is a direct result_ of American democracy. This is what unfettered democracy _does_. And _please_ don’t quote the butcher Churchill at me on matters of morality, he’s even less of a moral authority than Woodrow Wilson was. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/93 "2025-01-14T15:18:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I disagree - Principles don’t have moral standings. OK, disagree. **[You’re also disagreeing with Immanuel Kant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative)**. I think I’m in good company here. The principle of self-determination has the same moral standing as the principle of right vs wrong; it’s the basis of the administration of justice. It’s how we build civilized societies. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Trump _is a direct result_ of American democracy. Wrong. Very very wrong. Trump is a direct result of the **failure** of American democracy. American democracy failed for precisely the reason I indicated upthread – it requires at least a preponderance of informed and engaged voters, and American democracy didn’t get them. No one in his right mind, Republican or otherwise, would want a felonious self-serving narcissistic idiot with worsening dementia as their president. No one in his right mind would have ever supported his nomination. If they thought tax cuts for the rich were a fine way to run a country, there were (relatively speaking) sane Republican candidates to choose from. > [@MrDibble](#): > > This is what unfettered democracy _does_. WTF is “unfettered democracy”? Democracy shouldn’t be “fettered”. The problem was unfettered and unchallenged right-wing media, an endless stream of lies masquerading as “news”, and an unhealthy reverence for free speech absolutism, all aided and abetted by a Supreme Court whose chief justice once mocked the idea that money could possibly be a corrupting influence in politics. Not to mention a large swath of the population that was blissfully unaware of either real news or fake news, and just automatically voted “R” because … less taxes, and maybe they’ll abolish the EPA. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And _please_ don’t quote the butcher Churchill at me on matters of morality It wasn’t about morality. In any case, Churchill was a human being and as such was complicated – he was a racist, a brilliant orator, and an inspirational wartime leader, all at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/94 "2025-01-14T15:37:28Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > we sound like you Do not. And I say that as a (former) Minnesotan. You’d be drinking in a basement, drop an ‘eh’ or ‘aboot’ and all hell would break loose. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/95 "2025-01-14T15:55:05Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > You’d be drinking in a basement, drop an ‘eh’ or ‘aboot’ and all hell would break loose. We’ll be trained to avoid certain triggers, like calling Minnesotans a bunch of lite-beer drinking lightweights. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/96 "2025-01-14T16:14:51Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > Do **insane** stupid shit and see what happens Fac insanum stultorum stercore et vide quid accidit That’s a machine translation so it probably falls short of proper grammar, but it doesn’t roll off of the tongue. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/97 "2025-01-14T16:19:07Z")
I’m not one to lend any support to authoritarianism. I will tell you that many historians consider Mustafa Kemal Atatürk an example of a benevolent dictator. After defending Turkey from invasion, he didn’t seek to aggress on any more territory (except after he died, Turkey clawed back a piece of Syria which it has to this day, Hatay Province). Atatürk focused on literacy, social development, and women’s rights (Turkish women got the vote in 1930–34) instead of militarism, though he was an army officer. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/98 "2025-01-14T16:22:34Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > **[You’re also disagreeing with Immanuel Kant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative)**. I think I’m in good company here. Whereas I think anyone who embraces idealiam, as Kant did, is a fool who can’t be trusted as to the wetness of water. Never mind the foundations of morality. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Trump is a direct result of the **failure** of American democracy. Trump is American democracy working as designed. If it’s a failure, the failure is inherent in the whole system. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Democracy shouldn’t be “fettered”. Of course it should - Bills of Rights being a prime example of the kinds of fetters a democracy needs. > [@wolfpup](#): > > It wasn’t about morality. In a discussion _about morality_, if you quote someone talking about how superior a system is, your interlocutor is going to, rightly, infer that you mean ‘including morally’. Or else _why the fuck bring it up?_ ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/99 "2025-01-14T18:27:53Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The weakness of democracy is that in order to function, it requires an informed and engaged populace. Without that, casting ballots isn’t democracy; it’s just a meaningless exercise performed by uninformed morons fed a steady diet of disinformation by self-serving plutocrats and aspiring authoritarians. Cite: the USA last November. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Actual implementations will vary, and all will be flawed in one way or another, and invariably undermined by the morons whose presence we all have to suffer. It’s why the flood of lies and disinformation constantly promulgated by Trump and his minions is such a grave existential thread to American democracy, to America itself, and, indeed, to the world. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Trump is a direct result of the **failure** of American democracy. American democracy failed for precisely the reason I indicated upthread – it requires at least a preponderance of informed and engaged voters, and American democracy didn’t get them. That slope you’re standing on. It’s looking awfully slippery. The U.S. has bad voters. Morons actually. If they had better voters we wouldn’t be in this discussion, because they would’ve have voted for someone who’s only evil and not insane. “Only qualified and informed people (like me) are allowed to vote. Otherwise all my ideas about principles, morality and keeping authoritarianism at bay will be only sound and ~~fury~~ blather, signifying nothing.” Representational democracy has always been the tyranny of the majority. And I agree with @MrDibble that it’s about time we try [sortition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition). ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/100 "2025-01-14T18:51:22Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > informed people The problem isn’t that they’re not informed, it’s that they’re actually mis-informed. They believe things that are objectively false, because they’ve fallen for years of bullshit propaganda. You can’t have a functioning democracy under such conditions. People voting out of pure ignorance would actually be better, because that way, they might randomly do the right things some of the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898.md?page=6)