# What would realistically / actually happen if Trump invaded Canada and / or Greenland, Mexico, Panama, etc? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [January 13, 2025, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898 "2025-01-13T03:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/101 "2025-01-14T19:00:30Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > Only qualified and informed people (like me) are allowed to vote Where did I say that? Where did Imply that? Never mind. I didn’t. The actual questions I have are these: 1. Have you ever actually listened to an interview with a Trump supporter? I don’t know if they’re necessarily as stupid as they sound, because they seem to be able to walk upright and speak in relatively coherent sentences. But their knowledge of US domestic and international affairs is a bizarre mix of knowing nothing and thinking that they “know” things that are completely wrong. Followon question: Have you listened to the things Trump says at his rallies, and how the adoring crowds cheer and applaud the things he says? I rest my case. 2. How come, despite the admitted rise of populism in some places, it’s only the US that’s ended up with a demented insurrectionist and convicted felon who is an existential threat to American democracy, whereas other countries manage to elect relatively sane leaders who actually try to lead their countries instead of engaging in grift? See, I don’t ask that every American voter be just like me. I ask that they be at least like the reasonably sane voters in most other first-world democracies. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/102 "2025-01-14T19:03:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And _please_ don’t quote the butcher Churchill at me on matters of morality, Oh, come, on man. Gratuitous violence, all out support for rape and ethinic cleansing. What’s a little race-based violence between the victims and the conquerer? I am English and despise the poes. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/103 "2025-01-14T19:23:15Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Looking at my own post, I definitely overstated my case, especially when it comes to foreign affairs. Humans are flawed… But the evidence clearly shows that in the struggle between government by a liberal democracy vs. government by authoritarian asshole; the liberal democracies do better. Obviously the NATO countries were better off than the Warsaw pact. Ok, FTB was talking about the Cold War. I agree with his revision that characterizing US policy at the time as LG is ridiculous. > [@Frodo](#): > > That would surely be news to its victims, both internal (Blacks, Native Americans, Leftists…) and external (Central and South America for starters, about a million to five million Vietnamese (and that’s counting only the dead), and too many others to count). I was referring only to WWI. Crushing German militarists counted for more than unjustly jailing a number of US anarchists. I’ll note in passing the African Americans are pretty patriotic in my experience, which is quite remarkable given the historic abuse directed at them. > [@Frodo](#): > > Lawful good and lawful evil are game categories that do not work in the real world… Agreed, it was a simplification to begin with. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Democracy is morally neutral. There’s nothing inherently good about it, it’s only as good as the people that make it up While I would argue that democracy is both an intrinsic and extrinsic good, I find this argument interesting. The blessings of democracy don’t automatically make any of its policies moral or good. Sort of obvious, but worth stating. Quibble: real world democracies are hardly perfect reflections of the character of their populace. Sometimes this works to moralty’s advantage, other times not. But I think your general point holds _mutatis mutandis_. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/104 "2025-01-14T19:35:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Agreed, it was a simplification to begin with. Yeah. I probably shouldn’t have gone there. But I will say that it is more of a simplification when applied to a country or the leaders, and less of a simplification when applied to particular actions. When applying it to specific actions, I hope we can all agree that the actions under discussion in this thread would be both chaotic and evil, as opposed to things like Bush Jr. invading Iraq, what LBJ and Nixon did in Vietnam, and the various forms of colonialism and imperialism that European powers and the US have engaged in over the last few hundreds of years. Those things were all evil, but they didn’t bring an end to (or even threaten to bring an end to) the established order in a way that the US invading Canada would do. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2025, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/105 "2025-01-14T20:18:20Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I hope we can all agree that the actions under discussion in this thread would be both chaotic and evil, as opposed to things like Bush Jr. invading Iraq, what LBJ and Nixon did in Vietnam, and the various forms of colonialism and imperialism that European powers and the US have engaged in over the last few hundreds of years. No. I would characterize all of those as CE, because they were selfish and ignored established international law. Not L because ignoring precedent, and not G or N because selfish. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/106 "2025-01-26T19:32:19Z")
I think you’ve overlooked the Saint Lawrence Seaway. I don’t think blockading Halifax would be that significant, compared to the amount of possible shipping down the Saint Lawrence. An invading force would have to control the Seaway from the Great Lakes up to Montreal, but also the Gulf of Saint Lawrence to prevent supplies coming in that way (I’m assuming in this scenario that Europe would support Canada and send resources). The majority of the Quebec population lives close to the Saint Lawrence and I’d like to think we’d make it fucking hard for an invader to navigate down it. The Citadelle is still operational (lol). This would also cut off a lot of materials to and from the great lakes region, which would affect plenty of Americans. That shipping could go through eastern US ports, I suppose, but it would still be rather disruptive (and would Europe, who I’ve arbitrarily decided would side with Canada, still even send those ships?). It’s mind boggling to think about! ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/107 "2025-01-26T20:50:35Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > I think you’ve overlooked the Saint Lawrence Seaway. I don’t think blockading Halifax would be that significant, compared to the amount of possible shipping down the Saint Lawrence. With modern artillery and missiles, the Seaway would be trivially easy to blockade. Out near the eastern end, it’s about 30-40 miles wide. https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.1694171,-67.4291336&z=9&output=embed&dg=ntvb Modern 155mm artillery has a range up to 30km, or about 18 miles, so batteries on both coasts along that stretch can close the Seaway to just about all commercial shipping. Military craft might make it through, but they’ll take a beating. Toss in a few of those ATACMs things we’ve seen in Ukraine, and no one in their right mind would try to navigate that under fire. And that’s before we even blow up some of the bridges that cross is further down towards Quebec City. Drop those in the channel, and it would likely be impassible. In WWII, the Germans never went near the English channel, because it was considered suicide to even try to navigate in that “narrow passage”. The English channel is _huge_ compared to the Seaway. Any navy on Earth would love to be given the job of keeping people out of the Seaway; it would be a walk in the park compared to almost any other job they could be given. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/108 "2025-01-26T21:18:39Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Modern 155mm artillery has a range up to 30km, or about 18 miles, so batteries on both coasts along that stretch can close the Seaway to just about all commercial shipping. Military craft might make it through, but they’ll take a beating. Toss in a few of those ATACMs things we’ve seen in Ukraine, and no one in their right mind would try to navigate that under fire. Artillery in the open firing on shipping would not survive for long against American air power. The lifespan of those men would be measured in hours. We wouldn’t even have time to GET the few 155mm guns we have into those positions. Conventional resistance is not the answer. It’s a fool’s errand. You need to think guerrilla warfare. Don’t waste 155mm shells trying to shoot at boats. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/109 "2025-01-26T21:30:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Artillery in the open firing on shipping would not survive for long against American air power. The lifespan of those men would be measured in hours. We wouldn’t even have time to GET the few 155mm guns we have into those positions. This was originally about the US shutting down shipping to Canada. The point is, artillery batteries on the shore might not be the best way to do it, but they’re the shortest-ranged weapons you could use. Almost anything else would make it easier to block the Seaway. Put a couple of these boats around that spot, and no one else is getting in: > **[Arleigh Burke-class destroyer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arleigh_Burke-class_destroyer)** > > The Arleigh Burke class of guided-missile destroyers (DDGs) is a United States Navy class of destroyer centered around the Aegis Combat System and the SPY-1D multi-function passive electronically scanned array radar. The class is named after Arleigh Burke, an American destroyer admiral in World War II and later Chief of Naval Operations. With an overall length of 505 to 509.5 feet (153.9 to 155.3 m), displacement ranging from 8,300 to 9,700 tons, and weaponry including over 90 missiles, the A... ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/110 "2025-01-26T21:37:03Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > The point is, artillery batteries on the shore might not be the best way to do it, but they’re the shortest-ranged weapons you could use I understand that even less. Why, if the USA was in control of Canada - as they apparently would be if they occupied the coasts of the Gulf of St. Lawrence - would they be blockading Canada? Why would the world’s most powerful navy many times over not just do it if it had to be done at all? An invading American force isn’t going to bother capturing the St. Lawrence Seaway, they’re going to conquer the COUNTRY, by taking Ottawa, killing our political leaders, and destroying or capturing CFBs Trenton, Kingston, Petawawa, Valcartier, and Halifax; after that it’s a fait accompli and everything else is cleanup. The question is then how well we can organize resistance and get foreign support. There will be no need for blockade, the first phase of the war will be over in days. And no this isn’t entirely fantasy. It could happen. One chance in twenty, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/111 "2025-01-26T21:37:22Z")
Ugh that is so much darker than I care to think about! I naively assumed there’d be interest in maintaining the Seaway for the American great lakes region. The whole thought exercise is so distressing. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/112 "2025-01-26T21:42:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I understand that even less. Why, if the USA was in control of Canada - as they apparently would be if they occupied the coasts of the Gulf of St. Lawrence - would they be blockading Canada? Why would the world’s most powerful navy many times over not just do it if it had to be done at all? You’ll have to go back to the beginning to understand this. I was making the same point you’re making now. > [@What would realistically / actually happen if Trump invaded Canada and / or Greenland, Mexico, Panama, etc?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/44): > > Yes, but most of that is mostly empty space. Occupy a strip of Canada a hundred miles thick along the US border, and you’d pretty much de facto own the rest of the land. The northern communities are incredibly isolated, and dependent upon food shipments for survival. Embargo those shipments for a few months and they’d likely come around. Militarily, the only way to prevent the conquest of Canada would be if we proactively invited the UK and other NATO countries to establish large military base… They wanted to know why Canada would be easier to blockade than Afghanistan. This Seaway things just showed up today. The point is, while the Seaway is great for shipping stuff in peacetime, anyone trying to use it to re-supply Canada during an American invasion is going to have a bad time. There’s _multiple_ ways they could blockade it, any one of which would deny its use to anyone the Americans disapprove of. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/113 "2025-01-26T22:02:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You need to think guerrilla warfare. With drones, IEDs, and a deep understanding of the US supply chain. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/114 "2025-01-26T22:22:40Z")
As an aside, and based on this post: > [@The Trump Administration: The Clusterfuck Continues](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-the-clusterfuck-continues/1010068/1120): > > We did “install” four nuclear weapons in Greenland previously. Denmark required the US to remove them (all of the pieces and associated plane parts and radioactive ice). One bit is still missing but considered “not a big deal”. [From the article] > Thule Air Base thus remains indispensable to American defense, and the United States remains very interested in Greenland – and committed to [**maintaining good relations with Denmark**](https://dk.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/). Please note that the last hyperlink in the article takes you to a page on the U.S. Embassy & Consulate in the Kingdom of Denmark website … > 404 error - page not found Which I find utterly charming 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/115 "2025-01-27T03:47:00Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > In WWII, the Germans never went near the English channel, because it was considered suicide to even try to navigate in that “narrow passage”. They did [once](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Dash). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/116 "2025-01-27T03:58:59Z")
Well hell, more than once. They actually invaded and took the Channel Islands, and of course they did patrol the coast with torpedo boats and corvettes. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/117 "2025-01-27T04:10:26Z")
Small craft, yes, but the dash was two capital ships, albeit not 100% successfully. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/118 "2025-01-27T15:50:52Z")
Oh the story of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau is famous and hilarious. A real embarrassment for the Royal Navy. It’s like the Germans literally said “Why, it’s so crazy, it just might work!” and it did. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2025, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/119 "2025-01-28T02:03:50Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > We’d send thousands of people south to strike within the continental US. Even if you catch 50% of them before they do anything, the remainders will enact a terror campaign the likes of which no one has ever seen before. We look like you, we sound like you… “Hold it right there, Bub. I have to check your reaction when you say ‘Geez louise, Dunkin’ Donuts are SO much better than Tim Horton’s!', and then I’m gonna need you to say ‘About’…” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2025, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898/120 "2025-01-28T02:29:27Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Even if you catch 50% of them before they do anything, the remainders will enact a terror campaign I would not support attacks on civilian targets, which is what “terror campaign” implies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-realistically-actually-happen-if-trump-invaded-canada-and-or-greenland-mexico-panama-etc/1012898.md?page=7)