# what would society be like if man was incapable of lying? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047 "2009-04-05T11:52:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/21 "2009-04-06T00:40:19Z")
There’d be: no religion, no politicians, no Wall Street, no Ponzi schemes, no pyramid schemes, the West Memphis 3 would be free, and no fine print to read… SIGN ME UP!!! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/22 "2009-04-06T00:51:29Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > There’d be: no religion, no politicians, Considering the propensity of such people to believe their own delusions, and when they can get away with it to kill those who disagree, it’s at least as likely the result would be a species of gullible fanatics. If someone gives you the choice of “believe or die”, and you can’t lie, the ability to instantly delude yourself into believing what you were ordered to believe would be a strong survival trait. Being skeptical would be a death sentence. We’d be the end result of tens of thousands of years of selective breeding for gullibility and submissiveness and fanaticism. In that case, “We’ve always been at war with Eastasia” would _ **work** _. People would believe what they were told, even if it wildly contradicted what they were told moments before. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/23 "2009-04-06T01:50:15Z")
> [@cactus\_waltz](#): > > Storytelling and imagination is not lying, IMHO. When I read Lord of the Rings, I don’t think “Tolkien is lying to me, there has never been such a person as Gandalf”. Being able to visualize is very different from being dishonest, lying or misleading. If you can tell a story you can say something that isn’t true. If you can say something that isn’t true you can lie for your own benefit. You can’t have storytelling without lying. I don’t even think you can have consciousness without the ability to lie. Animals can lie. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/24 "2009-04-06T02:49:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Considering the propensity of such people to believe their own delusions, and when they can get away with it to kill those who disagree, it’s at least as likely the result would be a species of gullible fanatics. If someone gives you the choice of “believe or die”, and you can’t lie, the ability to instantly delude yourself into believing what you were ordered to believe would be a strong survival trait. Being skeptical would be a death sentence. We’d be the end result of tens of thousands of years of selective breeding for gullibility and submissiveness and fanaticism. > > In that case, “We’ve always been at war with Eastasia” would _ **work** _. People would believe what they were told, even if it wildly contradicted what they were told moments before. I don’t see it that way. Let’s say, if you lie, Poof! you disappear. So, someone sings, “Jesus loves me, this I kn–” POOOF! Of course, even things like, “All men are created equal!” – POOOF! Heck, LA would be the most vast, open territory with no traffic. LA Native: “I’m an actor.” - POOOF! “I Bought my first Aston Martin for 50 Gs!” – POOF! Even, “Dude, that’s bad karma” – POOOF! Okay, maybe lying IS good. Withdrawn, you honor. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/25 "2009-04-06T03:10:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Fiction is **consensual** lying. It’s lying, but it’s not deception. Well if that’s true what irony and sarcasm? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/26 "2009-04-06T03:17:16Z")
I was passing past puberty when the whole “truth in advertising” thing became prominent. Sounds great, on the surface, but I saw too many examples of “I just have to tell the truth because I’m that’s the kinda guy I am,” to not see that excessive truthfulness could be used to hurt the other person, especially if one were sadistic. Lies are integral to maintaining society. Without them we start talking about chaos. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/27 "2009-04-06T03:45:52Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I was passing past puberty when the whole “truth in advertising” thing became prominent. Sounds great, on the surface, but I saw too many examples of “I just have to tell the truth because I’m that’s the kinda guy I am,” to not see that excessive truthfulness could be used to hurt the other person, especially if one were sadistic. Lies are integral to maintaining society. Without them we start talking about chaos. Explain this to me better. What’s a situation where it’s better to flat out lie? Maybe I’m just callused or something but I find straight out honest opinions to be far far more useful. You know where you stand, and if you don’t like where you stand then you now know you need to do something about it. Like GI Joe said. “Knowing is half the battle”, and if you can’t trust action figures who can you trust? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/28 "2009-04-06T04:44:05Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I don’t see it that way. Let’s say, if you lie, Poof! you disappear. > > So, someone sings, “Jesus loves me, this I kn–” POOOF! Only if he doesn’t actually believe it. > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Explain this to me better. What’s a situation where it’s better to flat out lie? When a tyrant you despise asks if you are loyal to him, and will kill you if you honestly say “No”. When a religious fanatic with a gun asks if you believe the One true Way. In general, when someone with power asks your opinion and you don’t agree with them. When the Nazis knock on the door wanting to know if you have Jews in the attic. And so on; there’s plenty of times when lying is the most moral and practical choice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/29 "2009-04-06T05:08:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only if he doesn’t actually believe it. > > When a tyrant you despise asks if you are loyal to him, and will kill you if you honestly say “No”. When a religious fanatic with a gun asks if you believe the One true Way. Interesting. I could understanding lying under threat of death, I’ll even give you injury, and coercion. I hope that kind of stuff is out of **dropzone** ’s normal life experiences though. He was talking about people getting their feelings hurt though, not blown away (I hope). > [@](#): > > In general, when someone with power asks your opinion and you don’t agree with them. Well assuming my life wasn’t in danger I’d tactfully explain why I don’t agree with them. I’ve done that many times before at various jobs and school with bosses and teachers. Seldom causes problems, and people usually value the candor. Occasionally you get a prick looking for a yes-man but who wants to work with a prick anyway? > [@](#): > > And so on; there’s plenty of times when lying is the most moral and practical choice. What about in day to day life such was the average doper here might encounter? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/30 "2009-04-06T05:11:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Explain this to me better. What’s a situation where it’s better to flat out lie? I’d rather not say, or I (or she) would feel more comfortable changing the subject. Excessive truthfulness can be painful, especially if the truth said something, but far less than the complete truth, which couldn’t be described without excessive, inappropriate, and OBSOLETE pain. Things happen, and end. Further discussion usually ends in pain on both ends. > [@](#): > > Maybe I’m just callused or something but I find straight out honest opinions to be far far more useful. And I, a person who is older and who has maintained a relationship, probably, speaking to you, than a newcomer, a person new to the subtleties, longer than you have been alive, can only offer the revolutionary concept that, no, excessive truth can damage a relationship. ---
**Author:** ![cactus\_waltz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@cactus\_waltz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cactus_waltz)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/31 "2009-04-06T08:56:37Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > If you can tell a story you can say something that isn’t true. If you can say something that isn’t true you can lie for your own benefit. You can’t have storytelling without lying. I don’t even think you can have consciousness without the ability to lie. Animals can lie. Yes, but I already explained that I am not discussing the biological and neurological act of lying, but only the sociological aspect of lying. Deception. Misguidance. I can see how lying and storytelling are related to eachother, which is interesting in its own right. But when it comes down to things, stories are not generally percieved as lies. This is a hypothetical thread after all. I am not planning a global coup to remove Lies but keep Storytelling. I am just trying to picture how a society where people cannot decieve eachother. As **Der Trihs** said, storytelling is consensual, so it’s not really misleading. ---
**Author:** ![cactus\_waltz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@cactus\_waltz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cactus_waltz)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/32 "2009-04-06T09:11:26Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > If you can tell a story you can say something that isn’t true. If you can say something that isn’t true you can lie for your own benefit. You can’t have storytelling without lying. I don’t even think you can have consciousness without the ability to lie. Animals can lie. Yes, but I already explained that this is not really a discussion on the biological and neurological act of lying, but only the sociological aspect of lying. Deception. Misguidance. I can see how lying and storytelling are related to eachother, which is interesting in its own right. But when it comes down to things, stories are not generally percieved as lies. This is a hypothetical thread after all. I am not planning a global coup to remove Lies but keep Storytelling. I am just trying to picture how a society would function in which people cannot openly decieve eachother. As **Der Trihs** said, storytelling is consensual, so it’s not really misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/33 "2009-04-06T11:42:11Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Explain this to me better. What’s a situation where it’s better to flat out lie? > > Maybe I’m just callused or something but I find straight out honest opinions to be far far more useful. You know where you stand, and if you don’t like where you stand then you now know you need to do something about it. > > Like GI Joe said. “Knowing is half the battle”, and if you can’t trust action figures who can you trust? The classic example of when to lie is when a woman asks her SO, “Honey, do I look fat in this?” if she does, in fact, look fat in “this”. Now, I happen to want to know the truth, but many women want to be lied to and flattered about their outfit choice. A woman who wants to be lied to obviously has some Issues, and woe to the SO who doesn’t read her question correctly and tells her the truth she suspects rather than the lie she wants to hear. It would be best if the woman could stand to hear the truth, and if the SO could manage to phrase an answer which implied that while this current outfit is not the most flattering, she is still an attractive, desirable woman, which is partly what she’s asking. Perhaps it’s MAINLY what she’s asking. I have always found that a really good friend will TELL me if an outfit is unflattering, preferably before I purchase it. I never, ever ask my husband his opinion about my wardrobe, because he has terrible taste. Anyway, he tends to pick out filmy things with feathers around the edges, and those things have a very limited usefulness. Well, he picks out filmy feathery things for ME, he doesn’t pick them out for himself. But you probably guessed that. As for action figures, I guess as long as they’re action figures, they can be trusted. I’ve always been female, though, and _I_ always got Barbie in her many incarnations, and her friends, and her little sister and HER friends. And Barbie says, among other things, that math is hard. So you’ll forgive me if I don’t quite trust Barbie. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/34 "2009-04-06T12:26:27Z")
If men were incapable of lying, women would hold the advantage and rule the world…wait a minute–maybe I read the title too fast. Overt dishonesty is not productive in the long run, so the world would be better off without it. However assorted nuances, along with “white lies”\* are necessary for society to function. \*My favorite is “You can grow up to be anything you want to” said to a kid with a marginal IQ. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/35 "2009-04-06T12:34:32Z")
Is it worth mentioning that this is the premise of an [upcoming film](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/)? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/36 "2009-04-06T13:09:10Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I was passing past puberty when the whole “truth in advertising” thing became prominent. Sounds great, on the surface, but I saw too many examples of “I just have to tell the truth because I’m that’s the kinda guy I am,” to not see that excessive truthfulness could be used to hurt the other person, especially if one were sadistic. Lies are integral to maintaining society. Without them we start talking about chaos. Let’s not confuse a lack of tact and consideration and basic honesty. If someone offers the truth without any consideration for another humans feelings they’re still an asshole. We need to also draw a line between subjective opinion and something factual. when I was gigging full time some drunk or just some arrogant self important music critic would inevitably offer their “truth” about my music or my choice of songs. It only mattered if I gave their subjective opinion more weight than it actually deserved. If someone offers their honest opinion it’s still just an opinion. People hurt each other with lies at least as often as they do with the truth. I think the truth would serve us a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/37 "2009-04-06T13:14:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > When a tyrant you despise asks if you are loyal to him, and will kill you if you honestly say “No”. When a religious fanatic with a gun asks if you believe the One true Way. > > In general, when someone with power asks your opinion and you don’t agree with them. > > When the Nazis knock on the door wanting to know if you have Jews in the attic. > > And so on; there’s plenty of times when lying is the most moral and practical choice. It depends on when the no lying started. What if the tyrant couldn’t lie. Would he ever gain power? Could he really maintain it if those around him couldn’t lie. Could Hitler have gained power without using lies to manipulate the public? There are short range consequences and long range ones. In the long term , which includes the short term, the truth works better. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/38 "2009-04-06T13:24:50Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I’d rather not say, or I (or she) would feel more comfortable changing the subject. Excessive truthfulness can be painful, especially if the truth said something, but far less than the complete truth, which couldn’t be described without excessive, inappropriate, and OBSOLETE pain. Things happen, and end. Further discussion usually ends in pain on both ends. And I, a person who is older and who has maintained a relationship, probably, speaking to you, than a newcomer, a person new to the subtleties, longer than you have been alive, can only offer the revolutionary concept that, no, excessive truth can damage a relationship. Does truth have to be excessive? Can’t we temper our honesty with wisdom and consideration, even compassion and empathy, and still remain truthful? As an older person who’s been in some relationships I think sometimes dishonesty for the sake of peace can fester over time. Honesty also requires being honest with yourself and I’ve learned you don’t always get to it without a bit of confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/39 "2009-04-06T13:26:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It depends on when the no lying started. I was assuming it was an intrinsic human trait; so 100,000 plus years. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > What if the tyrant couldn’t lie. Would he ever gain power? Could he really maintain it if those around him couldn’t lie. Sure; it would be easier in some ways. He can surround himself with people he knows are loyal, for example. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Could Hitler have gained power without using lies to manipulate the public? If he believed his claims himself; then it’s not lying. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/40 "2009-04-06T13:31:47Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If men were incapable of lying, women would hold the advantage and rule the world…wait a minute–maybe I read the title too fast. > > Overt dishonesty is not productive in the long run, so the world would be better off without it. However assorted nuances, along with “white lies”\* are necessary for society to function. > > \*My favorite is “You can grow up to be anything you want to” said to a kid with a marginal IQ. I’d agree with nuances. I think honesty can be tempered with other positive human qualities like consideration and a little empathy. I’m not convinced “white lies” are necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047.md?page=3)