# what would society be like if man was incapable of lying? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047 "2009-04-05T11:52:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/41 "2009-04-06T13:36:44Z")
> [@cactus\_waltz](#): > > I’ve been playing with the idea of how our society would be like if there was no such thing as a Lie. By lying, I mean stating something which you know is not true or that you yourself don’t believe in. Some people concider hiding information to be lying, but I concider that to being dishonest which is similar but not quite the same thing. Hiding information would not be lying, but if you’re confronted about it you would have to be honest. > In any case. > Some things would clearly be different in our society. Here are a few I could think of on the top of my head: > > 1. People would trust each other a lot more, obviously. The only danger would be with people who really believe what they know is true, but who are actually mistaken. > > 2. The legal system would be much less complicated. > > 3. There would be lots of research in neuro-psychology as well as social-psychology and anthropology, in order to pattern human behaviour. When people cannot lie, they are much less free to manipulate which makes the basic socializing act more obvious. Interesting. I think a society that never lied would be a lot different than say, our society where people often lied and then one day couldn’t lie anymore. I think there would be temporary chaos if suddenly nobody could lie. Eventually we’d adapt and I think in the long run we’d be better off. Are we imagining one society that doesn’t lie mixed with other societies that can and do? That would get complicated. How would international treaties and diplomacy work if one country couldn’t lie and the other could? Just imagine how politics would be affected and commissioned sales. I think in the long run if we knew other people had to be honest we’d be much better off. It does raise the issue of how much honesty people actually want. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/42 "2009-04-06T13:41:48Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I was assuming it was an intrinsic human trait; so 100,000 plus years. ok > [@](#): > > Sure; it would be easier in some ways. He can surround himself with people he knows are loyal, for example. I don’t think it would. Often in the rise to power a leader presents themselves as a hero to the people who is doing things for their own good. If he had to reveal early on that he didn’t really give a shit about the public that couldn’t help. Loyalty in that kind of situation is suspect IMO. People may attach themselves to gain their own power but that doesn’t make them loyal. > [@](#): > > If he believed his claims himself; then it’s not lying. That’s a big if. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/43 "2009-04-06T13:44:40Z")
Who saw Bullworth with Warren Beatty from the late nineties. A senator thinks he’s going to die so he starts being brutally honest with people. Pretty funny in places. ---
**Author:** ![cactus\_waltz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@cactus\_waltz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cactus_waltz)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/44 "2009-04-06T13:49:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Are we imagining one society that doesn’t lie mixed with other societies that can and do? That would get complicated. How would international treaties and diplomacy work if one country couldn’t lie and the other could? No society could lie. If it turned out that one society could not lie while all others could, that one society would simply get exploited. Not very interesting. > [@](#): > > It does raise the issue of how much honesty people actually want. Yes it does. With no lying, there would be no shortcuts and we would have to face ourselves and our flaws to a much bigger extent. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/45 "2009-04-06T18:40:18Z")
> [@cactus\_waltz](#): > > No society could lie. > > If it turned out that one society could not lie while all others could, that one society would simply get exploited. Not very interesting. I wonder. I try to be as honest as I can be but that doesn’t mean I expect it of everybody else. You don’t have to be gullible and naive to be honest. > [@](#): > > Yes it does. With no lying, there would be no shortcuts and we would have to face ourselves and our flaws to a much bigger extent. Again, in the long run I expect that would be best but it’s interesting. I’m convinced a lot of people don’t want the truth as much as they claim to. The truth often requires something difficult of us, or at least something more difficult than just denying the truth and believing a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/46 "2009-04-06T19:14:30Z")
There’d be a LOT of single people. ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/47 "2009-04-06T20:01:39Z")
You know I think that most art and literature would disappear. Isn’t lying just the fabrication of an alternative reality? I think our world would be a very drap and backwards place without lying. Or, at least we would be destroyed by the invaders when they come. Haven’t you seen Galaxy Quest? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/48 "2009-04-07T02:25:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Does truth have to be excessive? Can’t we temper our honesty with wisdom and consideration, even compassion and empathy, and still remain truthful? If the dress really does make her look fat because it accentuates what is already there, the possible answers are the truth, which only a White House speechwriter could spin positively; silence, which is taken as being the same as the truth; a distraction, which can be too obvious; or a gentle lie. Maybe the truth is better, but most people are not fast enough on their feet to make it work. OTOH, that only counts if she’s already bought the dress. If you are still at the store you can tell the truth, and add in a suggestion of a different dress, which will be so preposterously GUY (deep neckline, skirt too short, etc) that she’ll forget you said anything. > [@](#): > > As an older person who’s been in some relationships I think sometimes dishonesty for the sake of peace can fester over time. Yeah, but the peace is so nice! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/49 "2009-04-07T04:04:27Z")
> [@cactus\_waltz](#): > > Yes, but I already explained that I am not discussing the biological and neurological act of lying, but only the sociological aspect of lying. Deception. Misguidance. I can see how lying and storytelling are related to eachother, which is interesting in its own right. But when it comes down to things, stories are not generally percieved as lies. > > This is a hypothetical thread after all. I am not planning a global coup to remove Lies but keep Storytelling. I am just trying to picture how a society where people cannot decieve eachother. As **Der Trihs** said, storytelling is consensual, so it’s not really misleading. Fair enough, I get what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/50 "2009-04-07T19:28:40Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > If the dress really does make her look fat because it accentuates what is already there, the possible answers are the truth, which only a White House speechwriter could spin positively; silence, which is taken as being the same as the truth; a distraction, which can be too obvious; or a gentle lie. Maybe the truth is better, but most people are not fast enough on their feet to make it work. OTOH, that only counts if she’s already bought the dress. If you are still at the store you can tell the truth, and add in a suggestion of a different dress, which will be so preposterously GUY (deep neckline, skirt too short, etc) that she’ll forget you said anything. Well, I’m a guy who would temper the truth with “Honey I love you” and let the chips fall. If she couldn’t take an honest opinion offered in a considerate way then I’d know I was in the wrong relationship. I’d agree that lot’s of people aren’t quick enough but I think tempering the truth with consideration and compassion is something that can be learned and improved with practice. > [@](#): > > Yeah, but the peace is so nice! Or at least that’s what we tell ourselves 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/51 "2009-04-07T20:19:58Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I’d rather not say, or I (or she) would feel more comfortable changing the subject. Excessive truthfulness can be painful, especially if the truth said something, but far less than the complete truth, which couldn’t be described without excessive, inappropriate, and OBSOLETE pain. Things happen, and end. Further discussion usually ends in pain on both ends. And I, a person who is older and who has maintained a relationship, probably, speaking to you, than a newcomer, a person new to the subtleties, longer than you have been alive, can only offer the revolutionary concept that, no, excessive truth can damage a relationship. I’m just gonna write this off as a different strokes for different folks thing. The friends I’ve personally found I trust, and therefor value, are the ones who were honest right off the bat. They were the ones who showed me where I could improve. They were the ones who told me how it really was when I’d have problems. Now sometimes they were wrong, but I wouldn’t be who I am without the honest answers. That they told me things I didn’t want to hear made me trust them when they said things I did like to hear. Yea the unpleasent truthful stuff hurt, but it made me stronger and I thank them for it. Who does a compliment mean more from? Someone who says nice things, or someone who says what they think? I could see how jaded person with negative opinions of many things might have problems though. One thing that made them my friends and not random assholes was how they presented it. A jerk will be little you for a problem. A friend will approach you and tactfully explain how they see it. Let me ask you. If a person will lie to you about small stuff what else would they lie about? **Lynn Bodoni** about your question, “does this make me look fat?”. There’s several different truthful responses. You can change the subject. “The ear rings really bring out your eyes”. If you’re the joking type, and she’s cool with that. You can use hyperbolic irony and embrace it head on. “Like a blimp! _mischivious smirk_” Then look her in the eyes and tell her how pretty she is, and maybe give her a kiss. Prolly the best one, one that gives the fished for compliment. “bah I like it better when you’re not wearing anything!”. But the true way to win that scenerio is never to play. “Does this make me look fat?” Implies body image, self esteem, and/or security issues. I used to tell an ex that she’d be the prettiest girl I knew even if she weighed a metric ton because she was she. It was true. Of course the word ex implies problems, and there were but excessive honesty wasn’t one of them. Also the GI Joe thing was irony. I may be an american but I’m down with irony. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/52 "2009-04-07T20:24:41Z")
Hmm, would this scenario allow deliberate deception, if no actual lies are involved? 'Cause if it did, people would just choose their words more carefully and decieve like crazy. They’d also use a lot of verbal qualifications to make it sound like they were saying things they weren’t. For example, “You might say that.” is _always_ true. As is any statement that it precedes. Similarly, “It’s possible”, “What are you talking about?”, “Are you kidding?”, “What’re the odds of _that_?”, and “Don’t be ridiculous!” are all true or able to be said without lying due to not being an assertion with a truth value - but give the impression of agreement or disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/53 "2009-04-09T18:45:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Is it worth mentioning that this is the premise of an [upcoming film](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/)? Just to note, that the ‘unlying society’ premise has also been written about extensively in sci-fi, fantasy, and various fiction… the device that carries it is telepathy, empathy, or mind reading. A society of telepaths could lie, but it would pretty much be worthless to do so, or a device that could read brain waves and reveal your every thought would pretty much destroy lying and deception by its existence. It would be a very “naked” society and I think man, by nature, would devise multidunious fig leaves to cover his exposure.The kind of society you are talking about would probably have elaborate verbal and cultural rituals to compensate for offense, maybe along the lines of Japanese language and society. The novel [_Neanderthal_ by John Darnton](http://www.amazon.com/Neanderthal-John-Darnton/dp/0312963009) (A light adventure, in the genre of Jurassic Park) also deals pretty extensively with this hypothetical in a pretty unique way. ---
**Author:** ![MrBerious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MrBerious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrBerious)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/54 "2009-04-09T18:52:40Z")
Humans would die out in a generation (no one would ever get laid). ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047/55 "2009-04-10T16:41:13Z")
I just happen to be re-reading ‘The Wheel of Time’ series at the moment. I think it’s a fair depiction. People would twist words and meanings to get around the truth. So basically pretty much the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-society-be-like-if-man-was-incapable-of-lying/492047.md?page=2)