# What would stop me from becoming a successful lawyer? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351 "2004-07-03T06:02:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/21 "2004-07-04T05:21:56Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In my case, they are not just what I should be, but in fact are what I must be if I wish to keep my ticket. YMMV in your jurisdiction, but in mine, this in fact is what is required of me. > > To parse it out, I had to swear: **“. . . that I will honestly and diligently and to the best of my ability execute the duties of barrister and solicitor, abiding by the ethical standards and rules of the legal profession whose honour and dignity I will not compromise . . . I shall conduct myself truly and with integrity . . . .”** The LSUC rules to which I am bound were developed out of and follow the CBA code, and with regard to integrity the CBA holds out Lund to assist in interpretation. > > To put it another way, if I were hauled up before the discipline committee, I would not get anywhere quibbling about whether or not the warm and fuzzy guidelines of Lund were binding on me or not. > > It’s really quite simple. To be a lawyer in my jurisdiction, honesty is formally and in fact required as set out in my cites above. Yes, and in my family when I was a kid, I was to never drink milk straight from the refrigerator and put the container back empty. So of course, I never did. The ethical constraints in state bar codes are a joke. They have little to no bearing on how attorneys act, short of maybe preventing the actual theft of IOLTA funds every once in awhile (and I unfortunately see the disbarrment and suspension notices every month that show that even that happens enough). Citing to a code does not provide an answer to the fundamental honesty and integrity of attorneys in general. In my experience, attorneys are no more or less dishonest than any other profession, than the baker who unloads some two day old donuts on you at full price, than the car mechanic who tacks an extra hour’s labor on the bill, than the babysitter who pokes through your dresser when you are gone, than the blue collar road repair workers who seemed to need to take breaks every 20 minutes and leave equipment on site to rust at taxpayer expense. As I said before, the difference is the amount attorneys rake in generally, the amount they can gain by these small “deviations” from ethics (selling the day old donuts as fresh might net the baker $1.00, billing an extra hour for “research” might net the firm $300), and the commoner’s hatred for those who make more off of their greed than they do. 95% of humanity is base, coarse, and looking to drink, screw, and rake as much cash as it can while doing as little as it can. Some professions just do it a little better than others. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/22 "2004-07-04T05:32:45Z")
And then there are the taxi drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/23 "2004-07-04T05:57:41Z")
> [@KSO](#): > > You don’t know what you are talking about. Are there dishonest lawyers? Of course, just as there are dishonest doctors, plumbers, teachers, and artists. I am a lawyer and I pride myself on my ethics and honesty. I have NEVER lied or made any sort of misrepresentation to a client, a judge, or opposing counsel. Have you ever lied to _anyone_ in the course of performing your duties as an attorney? I find it interesting that you, like **Spavined Gelding** are very specific about the people you don’t lie to. Why don’t you just say you’ve never found it necessary to lie to _anyone_ in the course of performing your duties as a lawyer, if such is so? > [@KSO](#): > > You owe me, and every other honest lawyer on these boards, an apology. I disagree. I made a comment to the OP intended to convey that scrupulous honesty would be a deterrent to a law career. I didn’t speak to you personally. Further, I’m sure there are certain lawyers whose practice doesn’t require them to lie or misrepresent anything. I’m thinking of attorneys who handle paperwork for wealthy individuals, showbiz types, etc. But the odds of the OP winding up in this type of practice is roughly the same as winning a lottery compared with the total number of attorneys doing other types of work. > [@KSO](#): > > By the way, your earlier post is completely incoherent. In one breath, you claim that all lawyers are liars but that this claim does not arise out of malice as you’ve never had any run-ins with a lawyer. In the next breath, you claim to make this “observation” based on “life experience.” Which is it? These seem inherently contradictory to me. Well, at least you’re right in that they only _seem_ contradictory. While I’ve not had run-ins with any lawyers myself, I have known more than a few people who have. I’ve also seen hundreds on television, and I’ve had several courtroom experiences where I was either a witness or I was accompanying a relative who had a matter before the court. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/24 "2004-07-04T06:07:10Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Well, **Starving** , your post was a cheap shot, it was gratuitous… No, it was not a cheap shot nor was it gratuitous. It was not intended to be a smart-ass crack at attorneys. It was, like I said to **KSO** , a sincere warning to the OP that scrupulous honesty would more than likely preclude a career as an attorney. > [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Your gratuitous cheap shot was, however, perfectly consistent with a mood that has been prevalent in the West for about as long as I am aware of. > > \ > > it is based on a misunderstanding of the duty to the client, and on the nature of the adversarial system of justice. Maybe on the willful misunderstanding of them. It is the cry of the man who just cannot understand that he does not get everything his way all the time. It is biting the hand of the only class of persons that give a rat’s ass about your liberties. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be saying “Yeah, we lie sometimes, but it’s necessary given the nature of how law is practiced, and it’s for your own good anyway, so shut up about it, you ingrate!” > [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > If you have something to back up you gratuitous and irrational and willfully misinformed cheap shot then trot it out. And don’t give me some balderdash about evil conniving trial lawyer or some liability insurer disinformation about people trimming hedges with a rotary lawn mower. If you are going to relieve yourself of blanket slanders I want to see something really good and persuasive. > > Put up or shut up, friend. I will elaborate further but I have to step away from the computer for now. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/25 "2004-07-04T07:05:33Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > . . . seen hundreds on television . . . . Ah, now there is a substantial cite. You wouldn’t happen to be or be aspiring to be a taxi driver, would you? Seriously, though, you should get to know a few lawyers rather that rant on at something about which you know nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/26 "2004-07-04T07:09:43Z")
- What specifically about the profession makes it so inherently dishonest? Do you think it attracts dishonest people or do you think it makes people dishonest? - Are there any other professions you think are inherently dishonest? Advertising? Public relations? Plumbing? - You mention two democratic politicians who are also lawyers. Have you ever voted against a Republican because s/he was a laywer? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/27 "2004-07-04T07:30:53Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Ah, now there is a substantial cite. > > You wouldn’t happen to be or be aspiring to be a taxi driver, would you? > > Seriously, though, you should get to know a few lawyers rather that rant on at something about which you know nothing. Here’s a super-duper little cite for ya. Note that not only was the behavior of Westerfield’s lawyers reprehensible as they knew he was guilty, it was dishonest in that they continued to try to deflect blame onto the innocent parents of a little girl who had been abducted and murdered. Never mind their grief and loss, just try to pin the blame on them anyway in order to try to get your despicable client off the hook…because, you know, that’s the way it works. Then note that California’s defense lawyers have come rushing to the defense of these low-lifes, saying pretty much the same thing **Spavined Gelding** did, i.e. we just don’t understand the law. Well, whether it’s the law or not, and whether it’s a necessary part of the best system possible, it’s still dishonest and it’s still lying, and I would not be willing to do it. Of course, not all instances of lawyer lying are as egregious as this, but it illustrates the point. Here’s the cite: [http://www.courttv.com/trials/westerfield/091902\_ctv.html](http://www.courttv.com/trials/westerfield/091902_ctv.html) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/28 "2004-07-04T07:43:03Z")
> [@Gamaliel](#): > > - What specifically about the profession makes it so inherently dishonest? Do you think it attracts dishonest people or do you think it makes people dishonest? It _requires_ dishonesty of the vast majority of those who practice it. > [@Gamaliel](#): > > - Are there any other professions you think are inherently dishonest? Advertising? Public relations? Plumbing? Well, automobile and insurance sales come to mind…and as a body shop owner told me one time when I was singing the praises of a certain automobile sales manager I thought highly of, "I know you like him, but it’s a fact of life that if you sell cars a certain amount of dishonesty is built in. It’s the only was to compete because everyone else is dishonest, and the only way to stay in business is to play the game the same way everyone else is. > [@Gamaliel](#): > > - You mention two democratic politicians who are also lawyers. Have you ever voted against a Republican because s/he was a laywer? If not, why not? Nope. And I doubt that I would. But then again I can’t imagine a Republican president saying something like “I didn’t have sex with her, she had sex with me” or “It depends on what the meaning of the word is, is.” This kind of comment is another example of lawyerly dishonesty. It’s like denying that you’re having sex with someone, because _at the moment you were asked_, you weren’t. It exactly this kind of dissembling that I’m talking about when I say lawyers are dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![PastAllReason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@PastAllReason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastAllReason)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/29 "2004-07-04T07:43:09Z")
Something not mentioned above: you should pursue any opportunities possible to work with lawyers. Think about getting a job, over the summer or part-time in a private firm if you think you may be interested in private practice. Had I done that, I probably would have altogether skipped working in a private firm. It was not my cup of tea, and many of my classmates came to a similar conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![PastAllReason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@PastAllReason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastAllReason)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/30 "2004-07-04T07:50:40Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Nope. And I doubt that I would. But then again I can’t imagine a Republican president saying something like “I didn’t have sex with her, she had sex with me” or “It depends on what the meaning of the word is, is.” This kind of comment is another example of lawyerly dishonesty. It’s like denying that you’re having sex with someone, because _at the moment you were asked_, you weren’t. It exactly this kind of dissembling that I’m talking about when I say lawyers are dishonest. Oh, :rolleyes: I’m not even an American, but I have to ask you if you ever **heard** of Richard Nixon, Republican President, who **did** and **said** all sorts of things? First time I can recall rolling my eyes at anyone on this message board. But really, over-generalize much? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/31 "2004-07-04T07:52:02Z")
I should probably add for the sake of **Spavined Gelding** and any others trying to fight the good fight the way they have to fight it, that I am aware that lawyers are necessary and that to a certain degree they way they practice is built in. What I am saying, in the main, is that if it bothers you to have to be dishonest, you will probably not be successful as an attorney. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/32 "2004-07-04T07:55:19Z")
> [@PastAllReason](#): > > Oh, :rolleyes: I’m not even an American, but I have to ask you if you ever **heard** of Richard Nixon, Republican President, who **did** and **said** all sorts of things? > > First time I can recall rolling my eyes at anyone on this message board. But really, over-generalize much? I’m sorry. I didn’t realize I was being asked if I would vote for a president who had been out of office for thirty years and who never, regardless of what you may think of him, said anything so stupid as “I didn’t have sex with her, she had sex with me.” Nope, silly me…I thought I was speaking of _current_ Republican politicians. My bad! :rolleyes: Your own self! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/33 "2004-07-04T07:58:07Z")
Hey, everybody, I’ve got an idea! How about actually addressing some of the more salient points I raise, like…you know…honesty and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/34 "2004-07-04T08:12:52Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Nope, silly me…I thought I was speaking of _current_ Republican politicians. My bad! You’re asking about stupid things current Republican politicians have said? Brain … overload … Too many … ::struggles to maintain cranial integrity:: ::head blows up:: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/35 "2004-07-04T08:25:49Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > You’re asking about stupid things current Republican politicians have said? No, actually, it was **Gamaliel** and **PastAllReason** who wanted to know about Republican politicians. What _I’m_ trying to do is answer complaints about what I meant by lawyerly dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/36 "2004-07-04T12:59:31Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > What _I’m_ trying to do is answer complaints about what I meant by lawyerly dishonesty. As opposed to your own intellectual dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Chimpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@Chimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/37 "2004-07-04T13:23:25Z")
> [@RandomLetters](#): > > A sense of ethics or any shred of human decency. Beat me to it **RandomLetters** ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/38 "2004-07-04T15:04:46Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > It _requires_ dishonesty of the vast majority of those who practice it. When you say this, are you considering withholding or refusal to divulge information as equivalent to a “lie”? Because here I would say you’ve gone too far. I cannot think of anything, other than greed, that requires an attorney to lie. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/39 "2004-07-04T16:45:06Z")
…was (from all accounts I’ve read) a very successful lawyer in NYC. He represented many p[eople, from all walks of life. He was also a lying, unprincipled scoundrel, who viewed his leagl practice as a means to an end. Was Mr. Cohn an anomalie? Or was he typical of a certain type of lawyer? Anyway, for those of you interested, Nicholas Von Hoffman discusses Mr. Cohn’s conception of legal ethics in his biography (“CITIZEN COHN”). You might find it an interesting read. ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351/40 "2004-07-04T20:37:55Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > It _requires_ dishonesty of the vast majority of those who practice it. How so? Really, go ahead and cite a couple examples of appaling statements by a few lawyers, but that anecdotal evidence doesn’t prove that it is “required” of the “vast majority” of laywers. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Nope. And I doubt that I would. But then again I can’t imagine a Republican president saying something like “I didn’t have sex with her, she had sex with me” or “It depends on what the meaning of the word is, is.” This kind of comment is another example of lawyerly dishonesty. It’s like denying that you’re having sex with someone, because _at the moment you were asked_, you weren’t. It exactly this kind of dissembling that I’m talking about when I say lawyers are dishonest. So dishonesty from a Democrat laywer-president is an example of how all laywers (and democrats?) are liars, but an example from a Republican lawyer-president doesn’t count because it’s past your arbitrary statute of limitations? Really now, I’d like to keep this civil, but you since you say that the “vast majority” of laywers are dishonest, but then you say you’ll vote for a republican laywer anyway, I don’t see how this is anything other than mudslinging or intellectual dishonesty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-stop-me-from-becoming-a-successful-lawyer/253351.md?page=3)