What Would The Anti-Stimulus-ers Have Preferred?

Maybe I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but you’ll have to explain to me how ***tax cuts for the wealthy ***actually translate into federal spending/savings. Frankly, this actually plays into the stereotype of liberals, who (conservatives feel) think that all the money in an economy starts out as the government’s, excepting what they feel you should be allowed to keep.

This is why so many people were against the recently-passed (and soon to be found unconstitutional) Universal Health Care law. That law played budget games to make it look like it was paid for; in actuality, it sucked out most of the available entitlement reform savings to do so, depriving the country of a much needed deficit control tool. To re-use an analogy I’ve used here before, it’s like a family deeply in debt finding $5k in the driveway and deciding to take a European vacation.

Not sure which side of the aisle nor whether I care, but your reference to “100% taxation/pure socialism” suggests you’re in some Fairyland. In America the political choice is between right-of-center and the looney farm. To imagine that “100% taxation/pure socialism” has any relevance, suggests that of the two camps, yours may not be the right-of-center.

Obviously, “the right answer is 0% taxation” is a doctrine that couldn’t fool anyone with a 3-digit IQ, and I think we can give all Dopers credit for that. It is, however, a fair reductio ad absurdem for the “Duh … cut my taxes … it’s a no-brainer” that dominates the thinking of the too-plentiful right-wingers with two-digit IQ’s. And those on the looney-bin aisle have to accept responsibility for such “thinking” since they implicitly endorse it by not repudiating their looniest spokespeople.

And, sorry, but I will continue to believe that Bush’s policies were aimed at the super-rich, despite that some tax cuts helped lower classes. No one imagines the Rove-Cheneyists would be so transparently blatant as to send no crumbs to the middle-class.

There are simple income charts that will reveal which Administrations benefit which income classes. But this is OT, and been blathered over and over and over in other threads. I respond only because you phrased your post in the form of some challenge.

I could make the exact same argument to you, turned 180 degrees around. Why do you favor spending when there’s no money to pay for it, when 40 cents of every Federal dollar is borrowed? How can we justify the burden we put on our children? Why do you hate America? (sorry, that last one just slipped out :wink: )

The PAYGO rule was a complete joke, as I’m sure you’re aware. When Bunning tried to get the unemployment benefits extension to adhere, the Dems (and this board) ridiculed him, even though he was right.

In any case, it’s a different time now - the economy is much worse than when those tax cuts were put in place. No reasonable person would suggest that it won’t be damaged by raising taxes.

Would it be worth it to realize the revenue to the feds it would generate? I don’t know, but a much better alternative would be to slash the spending - that wouldn’t threaten the economy and help tilt us back into a second dip.

I feel like sending this thread completely off the rails. What are you talking about?

I’m not following you; did you read what Ravenman said?

My point was, getting revenue from tax increases vs getting revenue from spending cuts both help balance the budget/eliminate deficits. The liberal would bristle at the spending cuts of course, and the conservative at the tax increases. So why is it just the tax cuts that saddle the kids with debt?

Forget it, we’re off the map, there be monsters, and down that path lies a 'jack from which we’ll never recover.

Der, after reading post #40, I think that the amount of help you need is beyond my meager capabilities, and perhaps calling a professional is in order.

Good advice. Now try to get some rich people to follow it. They’re the ones whining about needing tax cuts. And saying how if their taxes are raised they’ll stop working and go broke just to show us what big meanies we are.

Look, if a tax cut for the rich had X benefit to the economy, and removing that cut and spending the money on stimulus instead had a 2X benefit, what should we do?
I’m sure I misunderstand your position, because only an economic illiterate would propose cutting spending in the midst of a recession. I hope I won’t have to trot out the unemployment curves from 1937 yet again. If Republicans had proposed increasing taxes in 2004-2007, when there was both a big deficit and relative prosperity (for the rich, at least) I’d believe there calls for fiscal responsibility a lot more. But no, even with a war on, Og forbid that their rich supporters feel any tiny bit of pain.
How exactly will keeping tax cuts for the rich help anything? We clearly are still in a situation with a lack of demand, so investing isn’t a good idea, and the rich are definitely smart enough not to expand already idle factories.

Anyhow, I take it that your answer to the the OP’s question is to cut spending?

The “anti stimulous” faction would have preferred the country sink into another great depression, with all the banks going under, and the car maufacturers going broke and laying off tens of thousands, so that they could blame it all on Obama (or any Democrat) and thus have a reason to claim they would “put it all right” if we would let them have power back.

Check out this paper by the Brookings institute from June 2002. Pay particular attention to table 1. The Bush tax cuts raised after-tax income by 6.3 percent for households in the top 1 percent of the income distribution, compared to 2.8 percent or less for other groups, and less than 1 percent for the folks at the bottom (folks who, if you cast your mind back to the summer of 2000, Bush promised would receive “By far the majority of the benefits"). The Bush tax cuts made the distribution of after-tax income less equal.

Now, you might say “Of course the top 1% got the most back. They put the most in” but we’re not talking about tax rebates in terms of absolute dollars. We’re talking about how much of the total income as a percentage the top 1% received back as opposed to everyone else. Put simply, the tax cuts were 3 times more favourable to the top 1% than they were for the middle class. Moreover, Bush repealed the estate tax law, which only affected the richest folks in America anyway.

That’s the sort of thing people are talking about when they say the tax cuts were aimed at the super-rich. Bush could have made the redistribution fairer by reducing income tax levels a similar percentage across the board. By reducing tax rates on the top two income brackets by, say, 2 or 3 percent, as opposed to 6.3 percent, he could have afforded to give the middle-classes a greater rebate in terms of absolute dollars. That would have been a very smart way of distributing the cuts because, as we all know now, middle-income earners tend to take their tax cut and spend it right away, stimulating demand, while exceptionally high earners tend to just stick it in the bank or buy a new sports car or something, which does virtually nothing for the greater economy. Basically, Bush cut the amount of tax relief afforded to the middle classes in order to subsidise a disproportionately large tax cut for the highest earners who didn’t even need it in the first place and didn’t do much with it once they got it.

[quote=“Voyager, post:49, topic:554443”]

Look, if a tax cut for the rich had X benefit to the economy, and removing that cut and spending the money on stimulus instead had a 2X benefit, what should we do?
QUOTE]

Do you have evidence (not opinions from the hardcore uberlefties on this board like… like… well this is GD, but you know who they are), hard evidence that cash injections into the economy in the form of tax cuts are only half as effective at stimulating it as the spending side? If not, I’m afraid I can’t answer your question because I don’t agree with the premise upon which it is based.

The private sector is always, ALWAYS, more effective at allocating capital than the public sector. Always. Now, before the mentally challenged here start suggesting that I am for anarchy, then why don’t we just cut all gov spending period, etc, of course that’s not what I’m saying.

The public sector has few incentives for achievement, they have political ramifications driving decisions (like when Barney Frank wanted Obama to change some process at GM because it was good for union jobs), and… of course they have more unions, which distort the supply/demand curve of the price of labor. All of this means that public spending isn’t as good.

Or, put another way, if the USPS was all that great/effective/efficient, would FedEx and UPS even exist? Would private schools exist?

I’d suggest that the time to do that was decades ago. Now… not in a fragile economy, no, but adding to the entitlement burden is definitely digging the hole much much bigger (as the healthcare law did). And the ARRA spending didn’t provide nearly the economic jolt for the cost we will end up paying in the form of greater debt and interest payments.

PAYGO always has exempted emergency spending, provided there was sufficient support in the Congress.

No reasonable person could suggest that cutting spending will help the economy.

Note that the CBO has come up with detailed reports on how much the stimulus has helped the economy. And let’s remind ourselves that about 40% of the cost of the stimulus was… wait for it… TAX CUTS!!! As has been stated before, the stimulus bill that you blame for driving up the deficit actually cut taxes for 95% of Americans.

If [del]Bush’s[/del] the GOP Congress’s policies didn’t help make health care & education more affordable for the middle class, & by cutting tax roles undercut the ability of the government to subsidize these things, then I would say the net effect was to harm the middle income range–the ‘too “rich” for charity’ crowd. What Reagan did or did not do does not justify what W did; I notice you don’t claim that W Bush was all about the little guy.

Did the increased share of tax burden stem from moving the tax code’s revenue base upward, or from wealth in general concentrating upward? Did the little guy see his income grow & his tax liability shrink, or see his income merely keep pace with inflation while others became richer & richer?

It makes a difference. One way would mean [del]Reagan[/del] Congress in the 1980’s helped the little guy; another way would mean [del]he[/del] they did not.

George, a reasonable post in #51. I found the document interesting. Obviously, Bush felt that the highest marginal tax rates were clearly ‘unfair’, so to speak, and looked to undo some of the Clintonesque damage.

I still don’t believe that it wasn’t supposed to help all Americans, though. I remember Bush saying many times on the campaign trail - if you pay taxes, you’ll get a tax cut. The report you cite says right up front:

And this is a law that was only supposed to help the super rich, and not the middle or lower tax brackets? That’s what some are saying.

If he was ‘aiming’ for the super rich, I’m afraid that he isn’t a very good shot. He hit everyone (or at least, everyone who paid taxes).

When you say

you clearly think that what’s fair is that the rich pay a progressively higher portion of their income to the government. I’d argue, making it less progressive would fit any objective definition of the word fair. Clearly that’s what he was trying to do.

Finally, when you say

I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree with you. Where did that new sports car come from? Where did that yacht come from? The second house? How many jobs were created to meet that demand? How much wealth was transferred to those workers who provided that good or service? And how much taxes did they pay on that income?

Overall, good thoughtful response though.

Has the CBO actually done that? I thought I’ve read in many threads that all they did was re-look at the models they used pre-passage, and reaffirmed them, with no new economic data. If not, then send over a cite please.

As for the taxcut part of the stimulus… um, yeah, I kind of knew that… as I said in post #15

That was a good thing.

To know what’s wrong with the stimulus, let’s look at what Keynesians were saying about what the requirements for a stimulus are.

For example, Larry Summers said that an effective stimulus must be:

[ul][li]** Targeted**. A stimulus must aim spending at idle resources to prevent crowding out effects and economic distortions.[/li][li]Temporary. A stimulus should not grow the baseline size of government, or it will be impossible to pay back without tax increases.[/li][li]Timely. A stimulus has to act fast, because by the time you know you’re in a recession you may already be halfway out of it. A delayed stimulus will just add fire to the next economic cycle, contributing to the boom/bust cycle instead of counteracting it.[/li][/ul]

In addition, he said that a stimulus package must not extend the deficit much past a year or two after the recession ends. A stimulus plan that adds debt with no plan for repayment could fizzle because people simply adjust their spending on the expectation that their taxes will go up in the future to pay for the debt. An effective stimulus must be accompanied by a realistic plan to pay for the spending after the recession is over.

In addition, there was wide consensus from economists that temporary tax cuts do not stimulate, because the Permanent Income Hypothesis says that people spend according to their long-term income expectations. This same effect suggests that if a stimulus just ramps up the debt, people will not spend as much because of uncertainty over how the debt will be paid.

So, given these criteria by the Obama Administration’s own economic advisor, how did the stimulus do?

Was it targeted? Not a chance. The money went to powerful districts, not to the places that were hurting the most. Much of it went to propping up public union wages rather than employing idle resources.

Was it temporary? Nope. Only the tax cuts could be considered temporary, and they’re the one part of it that you don’t want to be temporary. The spending went to increasing salaries for public unions and adding to the infrastructure, which will bring additional maintenance costs. I already posted an example of how a billion dollars of stimulus money was used to give teachers in New Jersey a raise, which just led to a new crisis this year when the stimulus money ran out. The result was layoffs that might not have happened at all if the raises hadn’t been given out in the previous year.

Was it timely? Hah. Two years after a stimulus plan was announced, much of the spending still hasn’t been enacted. Infrastructure projects are snarled in red tape. There weren’t as many ‘shovel ready’ projects as was promised. The recession has officially been over for more than a year, and much of the spending still hasn’t found its way into the economy.

Judged by those criterion, the stimulus was a failure. Judged by Christina Romer’s model projection, the stimulus was also a failure.

And don’t forget that the pain of the stimulus has yet to be felt. Once the money has been completely spent, you get to spend the next generation or two paying for it. Annual Interest on the stimulus money will be at least double NASA’s entire budget. It will be a permanent drag on the economy forever. Every year that goes by, ask yourself “What could we have done with 40 billion dollars that we’re paying in stimulus interest this year?”

For that reason, the CBO originally projected that even if the stimulus worked as advertised, by the end of 2010 the U.S. GDP would be .3% lower than it would have been with no stimulus, because the drag on the economy of the debt accrues year after year. If the stimulus had a much smaller effect than was predicted, and it seems obvious that it did, then the damage it’s going to do over the long term will greatly outweigh whatever benefits came from it now.

So as an opponent of the stimulus, what would I have done instead? I would have used the money to target services for the unemployed. They give you the biggest bang for the buck anyway. I would not have allowed a nickel of it to be used for salary increases anywhere, for any reason. It all should have been targeted at idle resources. Job training programs, relocation grants, whatever. Ease the pain of the unemployed, and let the economy sort itself out. Let companies die if they can’t compete. Help the employees find new jobs or relocate if necessary. Stop propping up an economy that is clearly full of malinvestments resulting from a couple of decades of bubbles and government interventions.

A stimulus like that would have been about half the size of the current one. Maybe a third of the size. I would have accompanied it with a plan to pay it off, probably by taking some of the expiring Bush tax cuts and aiming them directly at deficit reduction.

I would have also implemented an austerity program for government consisting of pay freezes (not layoffs) and a line-by-line examination of programs that had become too expensive and should be dropped - something Obama himself promised to do, but never followed through on. My main priority would have been fixing the long-term entitlement problem and a credible debt reduction program to restore confidence.

This is a statement of faith, not a fact.

You obviously believe this is a good argument, but it really does nothing to demonstrate your point. FedEx and UPS choose not to do things that USPS does. Can you FedEx a letter for under a 50 cents? So your comparison doesn’t make any sense.

As for private schools, they also aren’t playing the same game. Public schools have to take all comers. Private schools can kick out anyone who isn’t smart, causes trouble or can’t meet the tuition.

Are you actually arguing that I don’t make as much as Steve Forbes because of a failure of an act of will?

Here’s a word you need to know, that I’m guessing you have never heard in your life. I didn’t ever hear it growing up on the right:

Rentier. Not “renter,” but “rentier”

[quote=Wikipedia, “Rentier capitalism”]
Rentier capitalism is a term used in Marxism and sociology which refers to a type of capitalism where a large amount of profit-income generated takes the form of property income, received as interest, rents, dividends, fees or capital gains.
The beneficiaries of this income are a property-owning social class who, it is argued, play no productive role in the economy themselves but who monopolise the access to physical assets, financial assets and technologies. They make money not from producing anything new themselves, but purely from their ownership of property (which provides a claim to a revenue stream) and dealing in that property.
The modern finance system has led to the term being contested as to its real meaning, as Marx lived in a Gold-Silver system with relativity fixed exchange rates.[ul][li]The concept is contested with respect to Mutual Funds and Hedge Funds and their place in the modern global economy.[]Since fund managers - aided by financial and administrative staff invest assets on behalf of rentiers and beneficiaries argue that they are very “productive”.[]The fund managers argue that it takes a lot of work to manage all the funds, and without that work production would rapidly collapse since producers would be starved of funds.[*]Some Mutual and Hedge Funds may work in such a way that none of their wealth is derived from Rents.[/ul]Often the term rentier capitalism is used with the connotation that it is a form of parasitism or a decadent form of capitalism.[/li][/quote]
The higher the income bracket, the greater the incidence of rentierism. Such ‘rents’ are for all intents & purposes taxes on productivity collected in the private sector rather than by the state. A rentier who objects to his income being taxed is someone who lives on a kind of taxes–or tribute if you like–& then objects to the state collecting taxes on behalf of the people.

There is not a level playing field. Some people are born with massive advantages, others gain them through guile. But in any case, for someone who benefits from the productivity of “his property”–when that “property” is others’ effort–doesn’t have a moral leg to stand on against the state levying tax.

I claim that the Bush tax cuts helped all taxpaying Americans. I’m waiting to see someone, anyone, provide evidence to the contrary.