# What would the Republican argument be against putting people to work on our failing infrastructure? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 24, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217 "2019-10-24T05:38:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/41 "2019-10-24T22:50:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I wish that statement were true more often than it is. > > To your broader point about Republicans resisting “more” spending, I think we can agree that they do it more often than dems, so in our current political climate, they’d be the ones arguing against spending additional funds to implement Bernie’s proposal. I’m curious about your opinion though: if $101 billion for transportation programs is “not keeping up”, how much money do you think it would cost to do an adequate job of “keeping up” with needed infrastructure costs? Are we just $10B short, or do we need to double it? Increase it ten-fold? Something else? I am REALLY not qualified to make such estimates. (That wasn’t the sort of work I did for the trans department, twenty years ago.) I’d prefer to leave that sort of calculation to the experts, whoever they may be. (I’m pretty sure they’re not politicians, of _any_ stripe.) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/42 "2019-10-24T23:03:38Z")
Republicans: damn Democrat policies want everyone to go to college! Why, many of these kids studying basket weaving should go and learn a trade, and they’ll be making $70 grand within three years! Also Republicans: don’t let untrained people get near asphalt! Lives are at risk! What if the goomper turns that “STOP/SLOW” sign the wrong way!?!? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/43 "2019-10-24T23:10:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I am REALLY not qualified to make such estimates. (That wasn’t the sort of work I did for the trans department, twenty years ago.) I’d prefer to leave that sort of calculation to the experts, whoever they may be. > > (I’m pretty sure they’re not politicians, of _any_ stripe.) That’s funny, I was just reading this article: [The Peculiar Blindness of Experts](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/how-to-predict-the-future/588040/) I was thinking about how much faith we in general, and the Left in particular, put in experts and how often they’re wrong. I was contemplating starting a thread about it. ETA: sorry, this doesn’t really have much of anything to do with the OP, so I’ll drop it now. I just thought it was an interesting coincidence, me off reading about how bad experts are at predicting things and you here typing me a response about how you’d prefer to leave that sort of calculation to the experts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/44 "2019-10-24T23:15:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s funny, I was just reading this article: [The Peculiar Blindness of Experts](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/how-to-predict-the-future/588040/) > > I was thinking about how much faith we in general, and the Left in particular, put in experts and how often they’re wrong. I was contemplating starting a thread about it. That article is talking about experts predicting the future, though, not simply knowing things about the current state of their field. If a civil engineer tells you that in fifty years, all cities will be designed around flying cars, you’d be right to be skeptical. If a civil engineer tells you that a particular bridge is in a dangerous state of disrepair, you should probably listen to them. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/45 "2019-10-24T23:20:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s funny, I was just reading this article: [The Peculiar Blindness of Experts](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/how-to-predict-the-future/588040/) > > I was thinking about how much faith we in general, and the Left in particular, put in experts and how often they’re wrong. I was contemplating starting a thread about it. :rolleyes: Your link describes a person who’s an expert speaking outside of his field, and getting embarrassed by an expert in their field. You’re focusing on the first, erroneous expert. While deliberately ignoring the second expert, who demonstrates how laughable blind criticism of experts is. If you start such a thread, I’ll happily go in there and agree that it’s not uncommon for smart, educated people to decide that they’re smart about things they’re _not_ educated in, and make fools of themselves. Concluding from that that all experts are unreliable about everyting is idiotic, obviously. But anyway, to bring this back to the _current_ thread, here are my responses: 1. I’ll helpfully clarify that when I said I’d leave the decision to experts, I meant experts in _infrastructure maintenance_, not experts in _baking_ or whatever. 2. if you have a problem with experts, what’s your issue with having untrained people making your buildings? Do you want people to be competent or not? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/46 "2019-10-24T23:59:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I wish that statement were true more often than it is. > > To your broader point about Republicans resisting “more” spending, I think we can agree that they do it more often than dems Given this has already been proven historically false, I’m not sure why you would think anyone would agree with you. BUT BERNIE isn’t an argument against facts now, and it wasn’t then. Please stop putting forth incorrect information as fact. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/47 "2019-10-25T00:15:58Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Given this has already been proven historically false, I’m not sure why you would think anyone would agree with you. > > BUT BERNIE isn’t an argument against facts now, and it wasn’t then. Please stop putting forth incorrect information as fact. He knows no other way. Facts must bend to ideology every time! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/48 "2019-10-25T00:45:58Z")
Because paying unskilled people to dig holes and fill them up again as part of some boondoggle infrastructure project is basically the definition of “government waste”. > [@puddleglum](#): > > Infrastructure in this country is not crumbling. It is in as good a state as it ever has been. This is a myth constructed by the Civil Engineer lobby who puts out a report that describes infrastructure as crumbling and the solution is to give billions of dollars to civil engineers. I’m not sure if that’s a thing. But I think “crumbing infrastructure” is something that plays well for politicians because a) the nature of infrastructure is that it constantly needs to be maintained and b) road closures and delays due to construction is something everyone experiences. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I was thinking about how much faith we in general, and the Left in particular, put in experts and how often they’re wrong. I was contemplating starting a thread about it. So you put your faith in ignorant morons?😕 ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/49 "2019-10-25T00:50:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > … > > So you put your faith in ignorant morons?😕 Except if they are building roads. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/50 "2019-10-25T14:50:51Z")
It’s absurd to blame the FIU collapse on the performance of unskilled workers. There are many things that could lead to such an event: the design was unique and the construction staging may not have been properly thought out or not properly followed, there could have been quality problems with the materials- perhaps the aggregate, the reinforcing/prestressing steel, or even the water. Don’t laugh, there have been cases where seawater was used to make concrete with the results you might expect. It could be the reinforcement was not properly placed or the concrete improperly vibrated. Perhaps the prestressing or posttensioning (I forget which this one had) were done improperly. There are a host of things that could have led to the collapse. The use of unskilled laborers was not likely one of them. Generally the unskilled are not doing the more significant work. You will never see a guy welding right off the street, for example. They need to get certified as welders to do the job. In a properly supervised job for example the placement of the rebars is checked prior to concrete being poured. To blame a collapse on workers that you incorrectly feel yourself morally superior to is not only wrong, it’s repugnant. I agree that the ASCE (full disclosure, not a member) does put out gloom and doom numbers and makes the situation look worse than it is. But as a former state DOT insider I can attest that we know that (at least in my state) that the current budget is inadequate for the long term sustainability of the network. Asset management may be a relative newcomer to the engineering profession, but we are getting better at it and I think we’re getting a much better handle on how much money is actually needed and how to make the most effective use of the money we have. No matter how the optimization is done, if you don’t have enough money you aren’t going to maintain your assets in the way that you would like, you either need more money or will have to accept the results of your stinginess. So why don’t Republicans want to invest in infrastructure? They don’t want to raise taxes to pay for it. They’d much rather use a construction failure as an excuse to take money from other programs that “other” people benefit from than increase revenue. As long as one wealthy person pays a penny in taxes, they will not admit for a moment that more revenue is needed. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/51 "2019-10-25T16:04:04Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Given this has already been proven historically false, I’m not sure why you would think anyone would agree with you. > > BUT BERNIE isn’t an argument against facts now, and it wasn’t then. Please stop putting forth incorrect information as fact. I think maybe you haven’t followed the flow of the conversation very well. It sounds like your complaint is really with post #39. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/52 "2019-10-25T16:19:51Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s absurd to blame the FIU collapse on the performance of unskilled workers. … To blame a collapse on workers that you incorrectly feel yourself morally superior to is not only wrong, it’s repugnant. … I didn’t blame it on “unskilled workers”. I blamed it on “lazy / stupid people”. Maybe those two are synonymous in your mind, but they’re not to me. I’ve known both skilled and unskilled workers that would qualify, as well as people that aren’t “workers” at all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/53 "2019-10-25T17:22:46Z")
I think it’s premature to assign blame and that it is best to let the investigation run its course. Until we know if it’s a design issue, materials issue, construction inspection issue or whatever, it’s unwise to cast blame. It could be that inspectors were lax, it could be the procedures were not properly documented. I think extrapolating the failure of a unique bridge to more than this particular situation is nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/54 "2019-10-25T17:33:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think it’s premature to assign blame and that it is best to let the investigation run its course. Until we know if it’s a design issue, materials issue, construction inspection issue or whatever, it’s unwise to cast blame. It could be that inspectors were lax, it could be the procedures were not properly documented. I think extrapolating the failure of a unique bridge to more than this particular situation is nonsensical. FYI, the NTSB released [this synopsis](https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2019-HWY18MH009-BMG-abstract.pdf) a few days ago. > [@](#): > > Factors in the collapse included bridge design errors, inadequate peer review of the bridge design, poor engineering judgment and response to the cracking that occurred in the region of eventual failure, and lack of redundancy in the bridge design. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/55 "2019-10-25T17:39:03Z")
Looks like the engineers who designed the thing were the stupid ones. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/56 "2019-10-25T17:45:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I didn’t blame it on “unskilled workers”. I blamed it on “lazy / stupid people”. Maybe those two are synonymous in your mind, but they’re not to me. I’ve known both skilled and unskilled workers that would qualify, as well as people that aren’t “workers” at all. So just to be clear, you acknowledge that there ARE skilled and trained workers in the pool of unemployed people, and incompetent and untrained people within the ranks of the employed. However you’d rather have an incompetent and untrained person do your maintenance than an unemployed person, due to your knowledge that all unemployed people being lazy/stupid. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/57 "2019-10-25T17:49:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > FYI, the NTSB released [this synopsis](https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2019-HWY18MH009-BMG-abstract.pdf) a few days ago. Thank you for the link, I wasn’t aware that this was available yet. Looks to be a design error compounded by the lack of an adequate review. I wouldn’t call it laziness, I’d call it incompetence. Using both wrong loads and wrong load factors and not recognizing non-redundancy- these just make me scratch my head. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/58 "2019-10-25T18:01:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So just to be clear, you acknowledge that there ARE skilled and trained workers in the pool of unemployed people, and incompetent and untrained people within the ranks of the employed. However you’d rather have an incompetent and untrained person do your maintenance than an unemployed person, due to your knowledge that all unemployed people being lazy/stupid. [No, you’re wrong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21120077#post21120077). ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/59 "2019-10-25T18:30:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Infrastructure in this country is not crumbling. It is in as good a state as it ever has been. This is a myth constructed by the Civil Engineer lobby who puts out a report that describes infrastructure as crumbling and the solution is to give billions of dollars to civil engineers. > > … I don’t know how you could claim such a thing. Here is but one example from my neck of the woods: “Structurally intolerable” is the description > **[Des Plaines River Bridge On I-80 Found Structurally 'Intolerable'](https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/des-plaines-river-bridge-structurally-intolerable/)** > > More than 42,000 drivers drive across Des Plaines River bridge everyday, and the most recent inspection reports reveal serious safety concerns. There are many other such examples from necks of the woods other than mine. It’s crumbling, literally. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217/60 "2019-10-25T18:31:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [No, you’re wrong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21120077#post21120077). My response to that post (found immediately below it) still stands. Have a nice day! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-the-republican-argument-be-against-putting-people-to-work-on-our-failing-infrastructure/842217.md?page=4)