# What would you change about the US government if you could start from scratch? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268 "2015-02-21T17:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/81 "2015-02-23T20:52:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What? The **entire issue** with the Tea Act was that it was taxation without representation. Rich white merchants didn’t like being reduced to a government level only slightly above the level of their wives and their slaves and their poor neighbors. > > Brainglutton’s proposal in no way removes representation; it simply places the lion’s share of representation at the federal level. Yeah - it’s not the best example. Unfortunately I’m not that creative so it was what I came up with. The thrust of my comment was about the increased level of authoritarianism being put forward. For \*\*BG \*\*maybe that’s a positive. I find the idea rather fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/82 "2015-02-23T21:00:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What? The **entire issue** with the Tea Act was that it was taxation without representation. Baloney. > [@UShistory.org;](#): > > The Tea Act, passed by Parliament on May 10, 1773, would launch the final spark to the revolutionary movement in Boston.\*\* The act was not intended to raise revenue in the American colonies, and in fact imposed no new taxes.\*\* It was designed to prop up the East India Company which was floundering financially and burdened with eighteen million pounds of unsold tea. This tea was to be shipped directly to the colonies, and sold at a bargain price. The Townshend Duties were still in place, however, and the radical leaders in America found reason to believe that this act was a maneuver to buy popular support for the taxes already in force.\*\* The direct sale of tea, via British agents, would also have undercut the business of local merchants.\*\* The Boston Tea Party was the act of rich merchants protecting their monopoly, and very little else. But like quite a few things later included in the Declaration, it made great rabble-rousing propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![SimonMoon5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@SimonMoon5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SimonMoon5)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/83 "2015-02-23T21:14:55Z")
I’d change the whole “slaves count as 3/5 of a person” rule. Clearly, a slave should count as 2/3 of a person. Oh, no, wait, maybe slavery shouldn’t be allowed at all? Nah, that’s just crazy talk. But I would definitely get rid of the electoral college. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/84 "2015-02-23T21:32:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The American system functioned adequately for most of its history, with its two broad-tent parties. Present difficulties stem largely from defective partisanship caused by modes of modern media. Recent rulings increasing the power of money in politics are tragic. Solution may not be easy, but would require changes to social organization, electoral mechanisms, and/or campaign/media rules. > > 😕 I daresay that your take on important problems facing present-day America is quite different from that of most rational observers. septimus, you should know better to insult another poster. Warning issued and don’t protest that you didn’t mean it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/85 "2015-02-23T21:42:12Z")
I read **septimus** ’ comment as “you seem to be outside the consensus viewpoint” rather than saying the poster was irrational. And I would agree with ITR that economic freedoms should have constitutional protection, so the comment would apply to me as well - and no insult taken. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/86 "2015-02-23T21:43:00Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Yeah - it’s not the best example. Unfortunately I’m not that creative so it was what I came up with. The thrust of my comment was about the increased level of authoritarianism being put forward. For \*\*BG \*\*maybe that’s a positive. I find the idea rather fascist. What? “Fascist” means adjusting the tier at which decisions are made from elected local officials to elected federal officials? That has nothing at all to do with fascism. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Baloney. > The Boston Tea Party was the act of rich merchants protecting their monopoly, and very little else. > > But like quite a few things later included in the Declaration, it made great rabble-rousing propaganda. Oh, baloney yourself. It adjusted taxes (more specifically, the subset of taxes called “import duties”), without allowing American merchants to have a say in that adjustment of taxes. That’s almost exactly what I wrote before. Don’t read something into my post that’s not there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/87 "2015-02-23T21:50:14Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I read **septimus** ’ comment as “you seem to be outside the consensus viewpoint” rather than saying the poster was irrational. And I would agree with ITR that economic freedoms should have constitutional protection, so the comment would apply to me as well - and no insult taken. Yeah, I’m not seeing the insult in what he said, either: it sounds to me as if he’s including ITR among rational observers, saying that most of the group ITR is in would see things differently. But maybe I’m reading it wrong. (Edit: at the very least, I’m not seeing anything there that implies ITR is NOT a member of that group. If he’d said, “quite different from that of most Americans,” would that imply that ITR wasn’t American?) ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/88 "2015-02-23T21:50:32Z")
Sorry everyone. The past few days have been crazy. Reading up on your posts now. I doubt I’ll have anything to contribute, but thanks to everyone who’s typed out their ideas. I’m really pleased I asked. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/89 "2015-02-23T22:01:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What? “Fascist” means adjusting the tier at which decisions are made from elected local officials to elected federal officials? That has nothing at all to do with fascism. It’s more central control, reducing the distribution of control. Here, from m-w: > [@](#): > > a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government If on one end of the spectrum you have fascism and the other you have anarchy, BG’s suggestion is closer to the fascism side than the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/90 "2015-02-23T22:31:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh, baloney yourself. It adjusted taxes (more specifically, the subset of taxes called “import duties”), without allowing American merchants to have a say in that adjustment of taxes. And Oscar Mayer back at ya. The Tea Act did almost nothing with taxes except let those imposed on tea by the Townshend Acts stand. The taxes imposed by the latter were strongly opposed on a wide basis and led to things like the Boston Massacre. The Boston Tea Party was a “rebellion” of wealthy tea merchants who saw their livelihood about to be undercut by British rulings in favor of the East India Company, and decided to stage and foment a “tax rebellion” to cover the real nature of their opposition. Which is why the modern-day Tea Party is so perfectly self-named. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/91 "2015-02-23T22:40:39Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s more central control, reducing the distribution of control. Here, from m-w: > > If on one end of the spectrum you have fascism and the other you have anarchy, BG’s suggestion is closer to the fascism side than the status quo. No, it’s not. The key part of “fascism” is rule by a dictator. His proposal has nothing to do with that. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > And Oscar Mayer back at ya. The Tea Act did almost nothing with taxes except let those imposed on tea by the Townshend Acts stand. The taxes imposed by the latter were strongly opposed on a wide basis and led to things like the Boston Massacre. > > The Boston Tea Party was a “rebellion” of wealthy tea merchants who saw their livelihood about to be undercut by British rulings in favor of the East India Company, and decided to stage and foment a “tax rebellion” to cover the real nature of their opposition. Which is why the modern-day Tea Party is so perfectly self-named. I think you’re objecting to a peripheral issue on unsound grounds, but I’m not going to continue responding because I don’t think you actually rebutted what I said, and anyway it’s peripheral. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/92 "2015-02-23T23:17:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, it’s not. The key part of “fascism” is rule by a dictator. His proposal has nothing to do with that. I am using the term similarly as authoritarian. His proposal is more authoritarian, thus my call out to fascism. Call it Fascist-lite TM 🙂 Anyways - this is a lot of text about a quip. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@mr\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_wolf)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/93 "2015-02-23T23:40:11Z")
I would invite the psychotic branch of the English establishment to come here and rule as in the Good Ol’Days. After a few years of crippling blood sucking as only they know how, those noble feelings of liberty, of freedom for everyone (+/-), of a true and honest to God beginning, all would vigorously spring as in a new age of splendor. For another decade or so. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/94 "2015-02-24T00:53:53Z")
All bills must be about one subject. No tacking on unrelated things to get them passed or rejected together. Also, the titles of all bills must reflect the subject of the bill - no catchy acronyms. And lawmakers should be required to read what they are voting on. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/95 "2015-02-24T01:05:36Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I am using the term similarly as authoritarian. His proposal is more authoritarian, thus my call out to fascism. Call it Fascist-lite TM 🙂 Anyways - this is a lot of text about a quip. Except it’s not at all more authoritarian, since people are still voting for their officials. If you’re voting for your officials, you’re not in an authoritarian system (absent things like election fraud, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/96 "2015-02-24T01:40:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Except it’s not at all more authoritarian, since people are still voting for their officials. If you’re voting for your officials, you’re not in an authoritarian system (absent things like election fraud, of course). I’m not saying it’s authoritarian as a binary choice. I’m saying it’s further on the spectrum towards authoritarianism. Voting is only one aspect. Remember that BG stipulated that states could be disbanded, reformed, etc. without local involvement. I’m not quite sure the disagreement here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/97 "2015-02-24T02:50:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not saying it’s authoritarian as a binary choice. I’m saying it’s further on the spectrum towards authoritarianism. Voting is only one aspect. Remember that BG stipulated that states could be disbanded, reformed, etc. without local involvement. I’m not quite sure the disagreement here. Presumably the local involvement would be that the local people who live there got to vote for the national government making the decisions. They get just as much control as they’d have under a more decentralized system; it’s just that everyone gets a say in what happens everywhere, instead of only locals getting a say in a local issue. It’s neither more nor less authoritarian, since it has nothing to do with whether a system is authoritarian. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/98 "2015-02-24T05:18:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Presumably the local involvement would be that the local people who live there got to vote for the national government making the decisions. They get just as much control as they’d have under a more decentralized system; it’s just that everyone gets a say in what happens everywhere, instead of only locals getting a say in a local issue. But that isn’t as much control. It’s easier for a movement to gain sway in a smaller population. Especially when it is a locally-generated movement addressing a matter of particular relevance to people in that locality. If you had to convince \>50% of everybody to make any change, some things would take a lot longer and others would never happen at all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/99 "2015-02-24T11:29:36Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > But that isn’t as much control. It’s easier for a movement to gain sway in a smaller population. Especially when it is a locally-generated movement addressing a matter of particular relevance to people in that locality. If you had to convince \>50% of everybody to make any change, some things would take a lot longer and others would never happen at all. So the new system is inherently more **conservative** , not inherently more **authoritarian**. This new criticism is both more accurate and more likely to trouble Brainglutton :). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268/100 "2015-02-24T15:01:31Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > The US founding fathers wanted the states to be more like countries where most every thing is at state level. The feds have no control on abortion,homosexuality,same sex marriage,welfare or other matters. > > Only military, defense and immigration is federal manor. The founding fathers would be shocked at FDR being a federal manor and not a state manor to decide if they want it or not or what degrees of the FDR. N.B.: This thread is **not** about what the FFs intended. It is about what system we would devise **now,** with the benefit of nearly two and a half centuries of hindsight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-change-about-the-us-government-if-you-could-start-from-scratch/713268.md?page=6)