# What would you do if an angry mob demands you raise your fist in support? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071 "2020-08-26T14:49:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/101 "2020-08-27T15:28:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I’m curious. Can someone quote from the videos the specific threats that were delivered? [Edit: it’s entirely possible someone will respond with some sort of hand-waving about how they sure looked threatening, or their voice volume was real loud, or something like that. If that’s your response, I’ll conclude you didn’t hear any actual threats in the video.] You know, I didn’t hear any threats, partly because the yelling was so loud and there were so many people that it was hard to make out any coherent phrases at all. At the same time, though, I think it’s you that’s doing some hand-waving here. “They didn’t utter any specifically threatening sentences, and they didn’t physically attack her, so there was nothing threatening about the behavior” is a very bad way to interpret this situation. The type of behavior displayed in that video is threatening, whether or not any explicit threats were uttered and whether or not any physical contact was made. I would have no problem drawing the same conclusion if the crowd was supporting Black Lives Matter, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, or opposing abortion rights. Laws on assault and threatening behavior don’t always require an explicitly articulated threat, and nor do they always require actual physical contact. And, beyond the question of legality, behavior like this by a mob is threatening, especially when the numbers on either side are so disproportionate, and when the individual being crowded is in such a vulnerable position, has no opportunity to retreat, and has done nothing at all to provoke or inflame anger. I’m not sure what I would have done in that situation. My inclination would be to explain: that I fully support most of the key aims of the Black Lives Matter movement; that as a person who has taught United States history at the university level for 15 years I probably know more about the history of racial inequality in the United States than everyone in that crowd put together; that I take a keen interest in legal issues like qualified immunity and the court rulings surrounding police uses of force; and that I’m not in the habit of having my words and actions dictated by a mob of angry morons. Given the hysteria evidenced in the video, though, I doubt I could have made those things clear without being shouted into inaudibility, so maybe I would have just stuck my fist in the air so that the assholes would move on. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/102 "2020-08-27T15:28:38Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > Getting in someone’s personal space and screaming at them is threatening behaviour. It’s ludicrous to pretend otherwise. It doesn’t meet the legal definition of a threat. ---
**Author:** ![TheCuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thecuse/32/2854_2.png) [@TheCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheCuse)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/103 "2020-08-27T15:34:43Z")
Doesn’t it meet the definition of “threatening behavior”? [https://definitions.uslegal.com/t/threatening-behavior/](https://definitions.uslegal.com/t/threatening-behavior/) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/104 "2020-08-27T15:35:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Laws on assault and threatening behavior don’t always require an explicitly articulated threat, and nor do they always require actual physical contact. The ones I’m familiar with require a specific threat OR actual physical contact. What Iggy quoted is that someone must “threaten such assault”. I’m asking if anyone “threatened assault.” [Here’s another legal reference](https://koehlerlaw.net/criminal-defense-dc/threats/#:~:text=There%20are%20two%20forms%20of,or%20maximum%20fine%20of%20%24500.): > [@](#): > > There are two forms of the criminal offense of “threats” in Washington, D.C.: (1) threats to do bodily injury, and (2) threats to kidnap or injure a person or damage his property. > > “Threats to do bodily injury” is a misdemeanor offense punishable by up to 6 months in prison and/or maximum fine of $500. In order to secure a conviction for this offense, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that (1) the defendant uttered words to another person, (2) the words were of such a nature to cause the “ordinary hearer” reasonably to believe that the threatened harm would take place, and (3) the defendant intended to utter the words as a threat. Crimes Code § 22-407. I fully agree that these protestors were being major assholes. But I don’t see any evidence that they were committing assault by any legal definition, nor that they were threatening violence. Using your voice loudly and rudely != being threatening. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/105 "2020-08-27T15:37:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I don’t see any evidence that they were committing assault by any legal definition, nor that they were threatening violence. Using your voice loudly and rudely != being threatening. Speaking of hand-waving. ---
**Author:** ![Danny\_Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Danny\_Hammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danny_Hammer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/106 "2020-08-27T15:38:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_Of\_Dorkness](#): > > It doesn’t meet the legal definition of a threat. Yes it does. See post 79. - Generally, “assault” is defined as the threat or use of force on an individual that **causes them to have a reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact**. Assault is treated very seriously in DC. It could be seen as just a civil wrong or a criminal offense.” If someone is in your personal space, with their face inches away from yours, screaming at you, with a mob behind them, it’s **perfectly reasonable** to feel threatened. Of course, you may be trying to draw a distinction between an actual threat (ie. “I’m going to kill you”) and threatening behaviour (ie. “I’m going to act in such a way as to make you reasonably fear for your safety”) but is that _really_ a hair worth splitting? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/107 "2020-08-27T15:39:40Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Speaking of hand-waving. That’s absurd. If you don’t have anything useful, keep posting like this instead. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/108 "2020-08-27T15:40:18Z")
I’d raise my fist with them. I’m always looking to make new friends. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/109 "2020-08-27T15:42:00Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > Generally, “assault” is defined as the threat or use of force on an individual that **causes them to have a reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact**. Assault is treated very seriously in DC. It could be seen as just a civil wrong or a criminal offense.” In order for it to qualify, there must be at least the threat of force. Threats must be communicated. Yelling orders at people, even in a large group, does not appear to meet that requirement, absent a specific threat of violence. The “threatening behavior” definition that TheCuse offered is interesting, but bizarre: does some jurisdictions really making “slamming doors” a crime? In any case, I don’t think that this phrase appears in DC law, so I’m not sure it’s relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/110 "2020-08-27T15:43:56Z")
Look, I don’t know. None of y’all do, either. But these jerks are on video, and some of them are identified. If the DC DA brings charges, I’ll cheerfully concede. But from what I can see, they didn’t violate assault laws while they were being assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Danny\_Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Danny\_Hammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danny_Hammer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/111 "2020-08-27T15:45:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In order for it to qualify, there must be at least the threat of force. Threats must be communicated. Yelling orders at people, even in a large group, does not appear to meet that requirement, absent a specific threat of violence. Sorry, I’m not interested in splitting that particular hair with you. If the behaviour of those little shits doesn’t meet the legal definition of threatening then the law is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/112 "2020-08-27T15:46:33Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > If the ill behavior of other motorists on the DC Beltway is so frequent and common and yet does not routinely end in violence or unwanted contact such that no reasonable person would believe that unwanted contact or violence is imminent then no charge could be supported. > **[Road rage fatalities increased 500 percent over 10 years and they’re still on...](https://www.fox5dc.com/news/road-rage-fatalities-increased-500-percent-over-10-years-and-theyre-still-on-the-rise-study-says)** > > Articles and videos about Road rage fatalities increased 500 percent over 10 years and they’re still on the rise, study says on FOX 5 DC. > **[Woman shot three times in road rage incident in D.C.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/woman-shot-three-times-in-road-rage-incident-in-dc/2019/01/08/ce4fa6e2-134b-11e9-803c-4ef28312c8b9_story.html)** > > A woman was riding in a vehicle Monday morning on I-295 in SE Washington when she was shot, police said. > **[A Man Is In Critical Condition After He Was Shot In An Apparent Road Rage...](https://dcist.com/story/19/07/31/a-man-is-in-critical-condition-after-he-was-shot-in-an-apparent-road-rage-incident/)** > > Police say the man was shot after his vehicle rear-ended a dark blue sedan in D.C.'s Third Street Tunnel. > **[SHOCKING VIDEO: DC Police Investigate Road Rage Incident](https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/shocking-video-dc-police-investigate-road-rage-incident)** > > BALTIMORE (WBFF)-- Police in Washington D.C. are investigating after an apparent case of road rage that turned violent.Police say the incident involved a tire iron and a hit-and-run.The incident happened Thursday in the 1800 block of Bladensburg... Wouldn’t say that it is that infrequent. More frequent than being assaulted by protesters. There is very good reason to fear other drivers. More so than some mouthy protesters. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/113 "2020-08-27T15:47:11Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > Sorry, I’m not interested in splitting that particular hair with you. If the behaviour of those little shits doesn’t meet the legal definition of threatening then the law is wrong. Cool! coolcoolcool ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/114 "2020-08-27T16:59:13Z")
Solon v. United States 196 A.3d 1283 (D.C. 2018) on disorderly conduct (D.C. Code § 22-1321 (a)(1)) might be more relevant and informative than intent-to-frighten assault, which usually involves pointing a gun or knife at someone. State would have to prove that Victor was in reasonable fear of herself or her property being harmed or taken. The case also involved protesters so it is especially relevant, but I’m not sure if the dangers of contracting COVID-19 add a new twist. I think it is unlikely that charges will be brought out of this. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/115 "2020-08-27T17:24:54Z")
“What would you do if an angry mob demands you raise your fist in support?” See if I could spot an SDMBer in the group and side track them into the definition of mob or demand or raise or fist or support. Then wait for the surge from the polar icecap melt to reach us. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/116 "2020-08-27T17:33:43Z")
Nope. Might tell that woman with the long hair to put her mask on. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/117 "2020-08-27T18:37:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Solon v. United States 196 A.3d 1283 (D.C. 2018) on disorderly conduct (D.C. Code § 22-1321 (a)(1)) might be more relevant and informative Yeah, if folks were saying, “This is disorderly conduct!” then I’d have no beef with them, and they probably also wouldn’t be internet-tough-guying about how they’d punch/mace/shoot the assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/118 "2020-08-27T19:02:20Z")
With regards to intent-to-frighten assault, here is the standard set of jury instructions from the D.C. red book (excluding special instructions for assault of one’s child): > The government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that: > > 1. defendent committed a threatening act that reasonably would create in another person a fear of immediate injury; > 2. S/he intended to cause injury to or create fear in the complainant/another person; and > 3. At the time, defendant had the apparent ability to injure complainant/another person; and > 4. That the defendant’s conduct was not justified by the use of reasonable parental discipline. > > Injury means any physical injury, however small, including a touching offensive to a person of reasonable sensibility. The government must prove a threatening act; mere words are not sufficient. The government need not prove that the defendent intended to injure the complainant. To prove that the defendant had the apparent present ability to injure the complainant, the government need not prove the complainant actually experienced fear of injury. It is sufficient to prove that the defendant’s act would have created, in a person of reasonable sensibility, a fear of immediate bodily harm. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/119 "2020-08-27T19:29:35Z")
> [@Danny\_Hammer](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_Of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > It doesn’t meet the legal definition of a threat. > > Yes it does. See post 79. > > - Generally, “assault” is defined as the threat or use of force on an individual that **causes them to have a reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact**. Assault is treated very seriously in DC. It could be seen as just a civil wrong or a criminal offense.” > > If someone is in your personal space, with their face inches away from yours, screaming at you, with a mob behind them, it’s **perfectly reasonable** to feel threatened. The last time someone got in my face and yelled at me, (a roommates boyfriend) I hit them in the face. It was a long time ago but I don’t think I felt particularly threatened at the time I hit the asshole. I was just pissed off. I did feel threatened right afterwards, mostly because I’d just punched a guy that was bigger and stronger than me and intoxicated, as well. Luckily it worked, it shut him up and shut him down and he never bothered me again. I also made the calculation that he wouldn’t call the cops. Because I struck the first blow. I could’ve been in trouble. The yelling didn’t count. I’ve been around plenty of abusive and toxic relationships, and yelling in someone’s face is not the same as striking them. Regardless of what was claimed upthread, you can’t get the cops to charge assault for that. Someone I worked for tried to get a coworker arrested for it a couple of times. It won’t get you a restraining order. Another employee at a company I worked had the boss do the yelling six inches from your face thing to him and he quit. He tried to get unemployment based on the incident. He took it to court and lost. I e known several women in dysfunctional relationships that unsuccessfully tried to take legal action based on verbal abuse only. It didn’t work. I’m not necessarily in agreement with this -and I’ve seen cops and courts exhibit some sympathy - but, in the US at least, it’s mostly a free speech issue. Try to get a restraining order sometime because of verbal harassment. You won’t get far. I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071/120 "2020-08-27T19:37:53Z")
So we’re accepting the, “[Not touching you!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaWAcAo6UnA)” defense? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-if-an-angry-mob-demands-you-raise-your-fist-in-support/919071.md?page=7)