# What would YOU do with California? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901 "2003-08-18T04:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/1 "2003-08-18T04:11:47Z")
[http://www.drudgereport.com/as2.htm](http://www.drudgereport.com/as2.htm) Arnold has hinted that he may have to raise property taxes if he is elected. Obviously the state is in piss-poor shape in pretty much every way imaginable, so what would you fine people do if you were in charge? ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/2 "2003-08-18T04:17:21Z")
What would _you_ do? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/3 "2003-08-18T04:19:13Z")
Ah. A poll. If only there were a forum for polls here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/4 "2003-08-18T04:21:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Ah. A poll. > > If only there were a forum for polls here. \*\* I was hoping to turn this into a debate. I figure the issue of taxes is a toughy. Am I the only one that is concerned with taxes around here? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/5 "2003-08-18T04:48:43Z")
Of course not. But a debate might be, “Are raising property taxes the best way to get California out of it’s current fiscal crisis?” ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/6 "2003-08-18T04:50:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Republican \* > Arnold has hinted that he may have to raise property taxes if he is elected. This premise isn’t quite accurate. First of all, the state doesn’t collect property taxes; localities do. Raising property taxes wouldn’t help balance the state budget (although it might make it easier for the state to reduce the money it gives to localities) Property tax is capped by a state ballot proposition, Prop 13, passed around 25 years ago. It was billionaire tycoon Warren Buffett, who is advising Arnold, who made the comment about modifying Prop 13. Arnold disavowed that position and said he supports keeping Prop. 13 as it is. It would take a vote of the populace to modify Prop. 13. There’s not a snowball’s chance in Hell of that happening IMHO. > [@](#): > > Obviously the state is in piss-poor shape in pretty much every way imaginable, so what would you fine people do if you were in charge? The state has to cut spending. (Duh) State income taxes are already quite high, so they shouldn’t be raised. They need to make the state more business-friendly. Two ways to do that would be tort reform and workers compensation reform. ---
**Author:** ![Krillan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5fc32e/32.png) [@Krillan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krillan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/7 "2003-08-18T04:51:30Z")
Well, Arnold can be like Dean running Vermont and not only raise property taxes, but every single tax you can think of – sales tax, cigarette and tabacco tax, corporate taxes, hotel taxes, tip taxes, anything else you can think of – and balance the budget that way, then in turn gloat about being able to balance the budget. Swell job Dean… Personally, I don’t know what Arnold should do. I honestly couldn’t say that I know the in depth economic situation over in California other than the fact that it’s seriously in the shits and that raising any types of taxes would probably cause more harm to the people rather than good. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@The\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Republican)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/8 "2003-08-18T05:06:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*The state has to cut spending. (Duh) State income taxes are already quite high, so they shouldn’t be raised. They need to make the state more business-friendly. Two ways to do that would be tort reform and workers compensation reform. \*\* I believe the state also has enormous vehicle taxes of some sort. Combine your facts with the fact that the pension rate for various state workers are insanely high and you have the makings of an economical crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/9 "2003-08-18T05:08:39Z")
I would eliminate government jobs through attrition, cut wages, and breadboard every expense on a giant wall so I could see where the fat is. That would include universities. I would force the indigent to spend money wisely (no taxi rides using ambulances, ER visits for colds, etc…) Park budgets would be reduced and supplanted temporarily with volunteers. I would raise the tax on gasoline and use it directly on related infrastructure. Businesses would get tax credits for installing generators and mandated to use them in time of brown outs. I’d start drilling for oil on every square inch of land and water that will produce it. I would encourage the construction of the cheapest electrical plants. That would be day 1. Not sure what I would do the next day. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/10 "2003-08-18T05:09:21Z")
I’d build two nuclear power plants. Ha ha! No, really, that would help a lot. OK, how about five or six ‘clean’ coal plants? I live about five miles from one. It sure puts out a lot of steam. Something we really need more of around here. :dubious: I haven’t noticed any air quality issues related to the power plant. Sure, I know we’re talking about CA. Political viability: 0%. Second, I’d cut bloated social programs. Political viability: 0%. Third, I’d leave taxes alone. Would it be possible, just once, for a legislature to not add another 100,000,000 pages onto the freaking tax code carving out exemptions for special interests and political benefactors? Political viability: 0%. I’m 0-3. Last, I’d smile a lot and talk about “bringing business back to California.” I’d do that a lot. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/11 "2003-08-18T05:28:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Republican \* > \*\*I believe the state also has enormous vehicle taxes of some sort. Combine your facts with the fact that the pension rate for various state workers are insanely high and you have the makings of an economical crisis. \*\* You left out the problems with the workers compensation insurance program in California. That’s a huge problem and businesses are leaving the state over it. The tax on automobiles, which is just your annual car registration fee, is just more visible. It’s not particularly high, but I don’t know what other states rates are. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/12 "2003-08-18T05:35:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BobT \* > \*\*You left out the problems with the workers compensation insurance program in California. \*\* California’s workers compensation law doesn’t have unually high benefits. What makes it expensive is specific practices and aspects, such as:[ul][_]It’s “self-administering”. In practice, this means a lot of lawyer involvement in a system designed to be handled administratively, without litigation. The “state-administered” system, which is used in New York State, works more efficiently.[_]Chiropractors have gotten laws passed allowing them to take advantage of the WC system[_]“Vocational rehabilitation” is supposed to mean the re-training of permanently disabled workers. In fact, it’s a ripoff.[_]“Rebuttable” presumtions of compensibility, which cannot actually be rebutted. E.g., heart or circulatory problems for someone who worked in law enforcement or fire fighting are presumed have been caused by employment. This includes problems that emerge many years after the person retired.There’s a lot of fraud in the system. [/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/13 "2003-08-18T05:40:36Z")
I have a plan for education that would work in any state. You know that huge education building harboring all those education bureaucrats who’s jobs defy description? Make all of those that are qualified to teach (presumably all of them) actually teach classes in the worst schools in the state during part of each day. Or, we’ll find someone who is willing to do so. I have a feeling things would shape up right away. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/14 "2003-08-18T06:21:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krillan \* > **Well, Arnold can be like Dean running Vermont and not only raise property taxes, but every single tax you can think of – sales tax, cigarette and tabacco tax, corporate taxes, hotel taxes, tip taxes, anything else you can think of – and balance the budget that way, then in turn gloat about being able to balance the budget. Swell job Dean…** > [@](#): > > During his tenure as Vermont’s governor from 1991 to 2002, the state cut the income tax twice, removed the sales tax on most clothing, and reduced the its long-term debt. A $70 million budget deficit was paid off. From [here](http://www.evote.com/index.asp?Page=/features_section/2003-02/02252003campaign2004.asp) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/15 "2003-08-18T06:28:16Z")
First thing I’d do is make sure that the rightfully elected governor REMAINS governor. Then it’s his problem to figure out. That’s what we elected him for. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/16 "2003-08-18T08:12:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*I have a plan for education that would work in any state. You know that huge education building harboring all those education bureaucrats who’s jobs defy description? > > Make all of those that are qualified to teach (presumably all of them) actually teach classes in the worst schools in the state during part of each day. Or, we’ll find someone who is willing to do so. I have a feeling things would shape up right away. \*\* I’m interested in your views and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. 😃 Part of the reason Governor Davis is in hot water is that he has raised the vehicle registration fee. (tripled it, I think) Simon and McClintock have talked about rolling it back to where it was. I think the big issue IS Workers Compensation reform. The amounts paid out haven’t increased much, but the costs to employers have exploded. I hear they have increased more than 150 % in the last 2 years alone. Businesses are leaving and the ones that are staying understandably don’t want to hire. There is a lot of fraud in the system, both in phony claims and in the administration. It MUST be fixed. Sales tax will have to increase, at least temporarily. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/17 "2003-08-18T10:55:22Z")
I’m always bemused by the pat prescriptions for government budget-cutting we see from so many partisans. “Cut bloated and unnecessary programs, eliminate waste, problem solved”. Examples above. But that’s begging the problem. But then, unfortunately, comes the problem of identifying _what_ is cuttable and bloated and wasteful, and what is necessary, and how that balances against revenue and where to get _it_. The partisans never get to that point. But that process _is what politics is essentlally all about_. That’s what government _is_. If you don’t face up to it, all of it, you haven’t addressed the problem at all; you just flatter yourself that you have. The consistent failure of the CA political system for so many years to accept that responsibility looks like the real problem, and throwing a few movie slogans at it will only let it get worse. So who are the leaders who can step up and face the budget, both sides of it, responsibly? Probably not on the ballot, but who knows. And if they don’t get the mandate to do so, or a mandate to act only on the tax side, it’s the voters’ fault. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/18 "2003-08-18T12:17:23Z")
Well, one of the problems is that most of the high spending is mandated by Constitutional amendments and referenda. So, legally, the state can’t cut most things. And, due to other amendments and referenda, it takes a supermajority to raise taxes. California is a good example of the problem with direct democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/19 "2003-08-18T12:23:11Z")
[Kent Brockman] Democracy just doesn’t work. [/Kent Brockman] ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901/20 "2003-08-18T13:19:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > Well, one of the problems is that most of the high spending is mandated by Constitutional amendments and referenda. So, legally, the state can’t cut most things. Really? One example the other was was a ballot proposition eliminating most benfits for illegal immigrants. It would have reduced state spending, but a judge undemocratically overruled most of that proposition. > [@](#): > > And, due to other amendments and referenda, it takes a supermajority to raise taxes. These limitations were the citizens’ way of deciding that taxes are already high enough, and they were unwilling to pay for additional government services. California taxes are very high in comparison to most other states. I think it’s the state spending that’s out of line. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-do-with-california/195901.md?page=2)