# What would you have done in Oprah's place (racism in Switzerland)? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821 "2013-08-09T18:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DummyGladHands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@DummyGladHands](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DummyGladHands)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/61 "2013-08-10T04:17:47Z")
Reminded me of this: (which I don’t know is true or not) > [@](#): > > One day John Bonham went to buy a Rolls Royce but they wouldn’t talk to him because he looked like a dirty hippie. He showed them a suitcase full of money and then they let him test drive one of their cars. When he was finished, he drove the car through the window of the Rolls Royce store and told them to fix the car and so he could buy it the next day. I know my Grandfather, who was very well off, bought a new Caddy every 2 years, while he was employed. He always showed up in suit, and paid cash. Just after he retired he went in to buy a new one-no trade, he’d decided to give the old one to my mother. In his casual clothing, and older, they ignored him at the dealership. For quite a while. First time the old man ever bought a Lincoln. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/62 "2013-08-10T04:19:45Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I don’t know what you mean. If I walked into a BMW dealership in Munich, in jeans and a t-shirt, couldn’t speak German, and asked to take a test drive, what the fuck kind of reaction would I get from staff? > > Fuck you Oprah. > > ETA: On the other hand, if I really was a rich Canadian and was serious about a purchase I would have somehow relayed that information to the sales clerk. “Hey, I know you’re concerned. I’m a Canadian hockey player. Believe me, the price isn’t a problem for me.” Is that so difficult? Honestly, if I thought someone was fucking with me just because of my appearance and preconceptions of what I can and cannot afford, I’d probably go along with it just to see what happens and make them feel like an idiot when they found out they missed a large sale because of their preconceptions. Sorry, can’t exactly get behind the Oprah hate on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/63 "2013-08-10T04:27:06Z")
It’s prejudice because the clerk assumed Oprah couldn’t afford it. (Are customers supposed to wear their tiaras while they shop?) If it was influenced because Oprah’s black, that’s racist. I barely remember that Oprah was over there for a celebrity wedding, and don’t recall her coming back to the States trumpeting she’d been wronged. She later offered this incident as an example when asked about racism. IIRC I think Oprah’s classiness comes from a lifetime of striving for understanding and forgiveness. But she don’t take no shit. Good combo for a human. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/64 "2013-08-10T05:06:38Z")
> [@DummyGladHands](#): > > I know my Grandfather, who was very well off, bought a new Caddy every 2 years, while he was employed. He always showed up in suit, and paid cash. Just after he retired he went in to buy a new one-no trade, he’d decided to give the old one to my mother. In his casual clothing, and older, they ignored him at the dealership. For quite a while. > > First time the old man ever bought a Lincoln. Anybody remember [this story](http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/barrier.asp)? I remember reading about it at the time and it has always sort of stuck in my head :). ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/65 "2013-08-10T05:27:28Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Like a $15,000 bag but not so trashy. That was pretty damn funny 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/66 "2013-08-10T08:50:08Z")
The book [Priceless: The Myth of Fair Value (and How to Take Advantage of It)](http://www.amazon.com/Priceless-Myth-Fair-Value-Advantage/dp/0809078813/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376123838&sr=1-1&keywords=priceless+william+poundstone) by William Poundstone explains the pricing model of high-end stores. They will often have an outrageously-priced item that they don’t intend to sell. The purpose of the item is to increase sales of lower-priced items. In other words, they have the $35,000 handbag to make the $15,000 handbag look cheap. It seems likely to me that the salesperson was instructed that when a customer was looking at the $35,000 handbag, to try to sell the customer a cheaper handbag. They probably didn’t expect anyone to ever spend such an outrageous amount of money on a handbag. Even most extremely wealthy people wouldn’t spend their money that way. Then Oprah showed up and actually wanted to buy the thing. Or maybe she didn’t want to buy it, but was offended at being steered away from it. In any case, I doubt this was racism. Oprah probably got the same treatment that anyone does when looking at this absurdly overpriced item. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/67 "2013-08-10T09:06:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t think anyone thinks that. > [@TBG](#): > > Poor Oprah. She’ll have to wipe her tears away with million dollar bills. > [@Sampiro](#): > > First Anne Franks, then Rosa Parks, then Matthew Shepard. Now this. > > When will the hate end? Certainly seemed dismissive to me, unless they meant they thought the encounter never happened, or that it wasn’t due to race. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/68 "2013-08-10T09:23:06Z")
It’s funny, a more overt racist incident like this brings all the more subtle, more covert racism to the fore front. A thousand reasons why this incident wasn’t racism. Oh no no no, she wasn’t dressed right, the shop never sells the handbag, just a cultural linguistic misunderstanding. It’s obvious. Switzerland is incredibly racist and Oprah is black. Discounting and denying her experiences, something you will never understand being white, and making up elaborate scenarios for why, is racist in itself. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/69 "2013-08-10T10:15:03Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > As with most A-list celebs do, I think oprah got a little miffed because somebody didn’t already know who she was. This was my first reaction upon first reading the story. Of course, my interpretation may be skewed since I can’t stand Oprah in the first place… The clerk may well have been a racist, and I know this is probably very petty of me, but when someone plays the “Don’t you know who I am?” card, my gut reaction is “Why? Have you forgotten who you are?” I would love to know what makes a bag worth $38K. I got a perfectly serviceable purse at WalMart for $12 that I’ve been using for years!! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/70 "2013-08-10T12:26:46Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I was telling this story to my wife and added, "It is not up to salesman to tell a customer something is too expensive for them. My wife replied, “If you’re Swiss you can!” We have lived in Switzerland for a total of nearly three years, about half in Zurich and half in Fribourg and got to know the Swiss fairly well. This is one thing I was thinking. A lot of people aren’t aware of how different other cultures can be. American culture is quite “entitled” (I say this neutrally) with the expectation that salespeople will act in a certain way. In Switzerland it may be normal for them to be a bit more direct, even rude by our standard. Or it may not. Also, in my personal experience, foreigners can sometimes sound rude just because they’re not used to how we might dress things up that we want to say. > [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > The book [Priceless: The Myth of Fair Value (and How to Take Advantage of It)](http://www.amazon.com/Priceless-Myth-Fair-Value-Advantage/dp/0809078813/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376123838&sr=1-1&keywords=priceless+william+poundstone) by William Poundstone explains the pricing model of high-end stores. They will often have an outrageously-priced item that they don’t intend to sell. The purpose of the item is to increase sales of lower-priced items. In other words, they have the $35,000 handbag to make the $15,000 handbag look cheap. I also considered this, but just like I don’t know much about Swiss culture, I don’t know much about expensive handbag stores. > [@gracer](#): > > It’s funny, a more overt racist incident like this brings all the more subtle, more covert racism to the fore front. A thousand reasons why this incident wasn’t racism. Oh no no no, she wasn’t dressed right, the shop never sells the handbag, just a cultural linguistic misunderstanding. > > It’s obvious. Switzerland is incredibly racist and Oprah is black. Discounting and denying her experiences, something you will never understand being white, and making up elaborate scenarios for why, is racist in itself. Coming to any conclusion, or even considering other possibilities, than racism is racist? Even if we think, on balance, it probably was racism, it’s only fair to at least consider other possibilities. Are you sure that if she were a white non-German speaker it would have been different? Are you sure the salesperson doesn’t get asked twenty times a day to show “rich” bankers or their wives the handbag, only to discover they’re never going to buy it? I often suspect attitudes like yours may harm the anti-racism cause more than it helps, especially when you say “It’s obvious. Switzerland is incredibly racist”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/71 "2013-08-10T12:54:53Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Certainly seemed dismissive to me, unless they meant they thought the encounter never happened, or that it wasn’t due to race. Fair enough. I think this case is one of those classic “race, class, gender” cases that lefties love so much :). Oprah gets snubbed because of race, absolutely, inexcusable. I suspect some of the dismissive commentary has some gender issues going on as well: women shopping for expensive luxuries is a sexist trope in our society, and when Oprah talks about buying a $35K item that’s used specifically by women, I think that might be leading to some of the contempt for her. But then there’s class. She’s talking here about The Problems of Billionaires. Given the intersection between race and class in the US–the hugely disproportionate number of folks living in poverty who are nonwhite–her complaints about the racism suffered by the ultra-rich are something of a niche complaint. I’m a white dude who’s not in a position to tell Oprah what to talk about, but I can’t help wondering whether she’d be more productive talking about the countless daily occurrences in which racism causes real, actual problems. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/72 "2013-08-10T13:03:56Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I don’t see it as racism either. It’s more of a realization that if you want to take a closer look at a $35,000 purse you should be ready to show some credentials. > Do you think any ol’ white person can go in there and ask for a closer look at the $35k purse? > I think queen Oprah was more peeved that she’s not internationally known. Yes, I think any ol’ white person could go in there and ask for a closer look at the $35k purse. And **leaffan** , I am sorry to be an American since we are so awful. Or maybe we are only awful when we are abroad? Or rich? I don’t know. Anyway, sorry for being American. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/73 "2013-08-10T13:21:15Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > It’s funny, a more overt racist incident like this brings all the more subtle, more covert racism to the fore front. A thousand reasons why this incident wasn’t racism. Oh no no no, she wasn’t dressed right, the shop never sells the handbag, just a cultural linguistic misunderstanding. > > It’s obvious. Switzerland is incredibly racist and Oprah is black. Discounting and denying her experiences, something you will never understand being white, and making up elaborate scenarios for why, is racist in itself. Did you really just call everyone who had differing opinions on why this might have happened… racist? Really?? For the record (And so I can be classified as a “racist” top!), I also see this as classist. The clerk \*might \* be racist too, but the incident doesn’t give us enough information to determine that as a fact. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/74 "2013-08-10T15:43:39Z")
Just saying – Switzerland _ **is** _ racist. Somebody earlier said he got the feeling that it was “The Alabama of Europe” – Well, if Alabama were an obscenely rich place, it would. Been there, hated the place. I am Spanish, white, and I have never felt less welcome anywhere in the world. The Swiss are insular, tight-knit, and look at _ **all** _ “outsiders” with a mixture of disdain and suspicion. Very “old-fashioned” in their attitudes and outlook on life, as well – very much anchored in the past (with everything that that implies when it comes to dealing with “the other”). Heck, this is the county where women were granted the right to vote in Federal Elections only in _ **1971** _ (!!!) and where one of the cantons (Appenzell Innerrhoden) granted women the right to vote in local matters in _ **19 fucking 91** _, and only because the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland ordered them to! Want to live and work there? Forget about ever truly “integrating” in society. You will never be as good as a “real” Swiss. And you can be _ **sure** _ that the neighbours will be nosy and will be looking for a reason to royally fuck you up due to some “transgression” that may exist only in their minds. Hell, _I_ lived for 4 years in Japan and I found it easier to integrate _there_ and make friends! To top it all, the place is mind-numbingly boring. So, in my opinion? Yeah, the clerk at the shop was being 100% Swiss. How dare a non-Swiss, non-white Untermensch even _ **dare** _ to entertain the thought that they might try to buy something for that price? Cleaning ladies have no access to that sort of money! Sorry if I sound harsh, but my observations regarding the average Swiss and my experiences in the place have convinced me that Switzerland is populated by generally horrid people. There are exceptions, but unfortunately they are few. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/75 "2013-08-10T16:08:10Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > 1: Buy _everything_ in the store. > 2: Immediately return it all. “Madame, you cannot return stolen goods.” ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/76 "2013-08-10T16:18:25Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > > [@DCnDC](#): > > > > 1: Buy _everything_ in the store. > > 2: Immediately return it all. > > “Madame, you cannot return stolen goods.” This store is closed for business! I got Oprah money, bitch! ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/77 "2013-08-10T16:36:50Z")
> [@Tequila\_Party](#): > > Did you really just call everyone who had differing opinions on why this might have happened… racist? Really?? No, though I see how you might read it that way, I was unclear. Rather, the collective doubting of a person’s experiences are part of the less noticeable racism that continues to pervade our culture. People doubting her experience aren’t necessarily raving racists, but the amount of doubting (incl. outside these boards) is a part of the insidiousness of racism. The exact same thing happens when a woman relates a time she experienced sexism. There are always people who claim it wasn’t really sexism, she misunderstood, or she’s overreacting, cultural misunderstanding, she made it up, all sorts of things. If Oprah had said the people in the shop had a dog I doubt there’s be so much interest in proving how it was actually a cat, or it was a dog but it was small, or it was non-allergenic, or she never went to that shop at all, or she’s just saying it for attention. Seriously, have any of you been to Switzerland? People there are racist, and they’re not shy about it. You can’t know of her experiences as a black woman in Switzerland (unless you are a black woman who’s been to Switzerland), and the presumption that you would know, the denial and downplaying of her experience, that’s a part of racism. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/78 "2013-08-10T17:08:34Z")
According to the report on NPR I just finished reading, Oprah asked THREE times to see the handbag, and was refused all 3 times by the saleslady. If it was just a one-off time, and Oprah got her panties in a bunch over it, then fine, maybe Oprah is a little bit of a drama queen with a sense of entitlement. But I’d be pissed the hell off too if I was told 3 times by a store clerk that I couldn’t see an item, no matter how much money I make. I mean, if the store person had actually said, “That hand bag is very expensive, are you sure you wouldn’t like to consider a few other more reasonable bags,” then maybe we could blame Oprah for being a fuckwit. But that’s not what the report says. The report says that the store person just flat out refused 3 times, with no good reason, other than to try and encourage Oprah to look at the other bags. If she had mentioned the price of the bag specifically or generally, that could have given O a chance to say, “yes, I understand the bag is expensive and I’d like to see it please,” or something. I’m gonna go with racist on this one, after all. Fuck that store. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/79 "2013-08-10T17:52:58Z")
Well, Tina Turner wants to live there. Didn’t she recently renounce her US citizenship and move to Switzerland? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821/80 "2013-08-10T17:53:30Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > I think it’s far more likely to have been clothes-profiling. If she wasn’t flaunting her wealth in her clothing and was looking too casual, I can absolutely see a snooty shopgirl saying “it’s too expensive for you.” There are plenty of stores with **bouncers** , for crying out loud, to keep out people who don’t look rich enough to shop there. Yep. Oprah was likely going incognito, and that means leaving the expensive garb back at the hotel. They look for things like Rolex watches, designer clothers, etc. I was asking about reservations at a rather snooty restaurant, dressed casually. They were cool, until they noticed I was wearing a rather expensive watch (it was a gift). Whereupon the previous cool maître de started talking Chef’s table, etc. he even said “Nice watch!”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-you-have-done-in-oprahs-place-racism-in-switzerland/665821.md?page=5)