# Whatever happened to Bernhard Goetz? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501 "2002-06-22T23:48:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/41 "2013-11-08T00:16:18Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I think this is yet another case of judging a case out of context. We forget that NYC was a fricking war zone at that time. Crime was completely out of hand there. Goetz was viewed as a hero by many there. Perhaps not the best judge of right or wrong, but not a bad judge of how bad things has gotten there. “We” don’t forget. I lived there in the 80s. I lived there in the 70s, and the 60s, and I live there today. > [@spifflog](#): > > Second, it’s early to view this from the comfort of one’s living room. Trying being there alone in a subway against four criminals. Let me know how you’d handle it. Been there. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/42 "2013-11-08T06:06:09Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Been there. Oh. How often were you mugged by four people on the subway? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/43 "2013-11-08T09:20:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh. How often were you mugged by four people on the subway? The ‘four people’ bit is irrelevant. You seem to think that getting mugged in NY is a rare occurrence. It is - relatively speaking, compared to the 70s and 80s - but not \*that \*rare. I’ve spent almost 10 years living in New York from the 90s on - after things got _better_ - and I was mugged twice; once by a guy on 44th and Lex - literally seconds from Grand Central, of all places - and once by two guys in Brooklyn. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/44 "2013-11-08T14:57:36Z")
Goetz’s mistake was going to the police and confessing. What he should have done was [ul][li]Shoot the four guys[/li][li]Get off the subway[/li][li]Wipe the gun clean[/li][li]Ditch the gun down a sewer opening[/li][li]Go home[/li][li]Never mention it to anyone, at any time, for any reason.[/ul]The cops would never catch him, and he could have avoided the trial and the civil verdict. [/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/45 "2013-11-08T14:59:43Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > He should give up his wallet because it would cause the least bit of trouble for everyone involved. I don’t believe this is true in the long run. If I was an New Yorker during that time period I wouldn’t want the subway I rode every day being thought of as “easy money” by criminals. The concept of deterrence shouldn’t be understated. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/46 "2013-11-08T18:53:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh. How often were you mugged by four people on the subway? Do I need some sort of crime victim credentials to post an opinion here? OK, I’ve never been mugged by four people on the subway. I was once mugged by around 8 or 10 people on the subway, though. I think it was in 1978, on the Seventh Avenue line at, if I remember right, the 103rd St. stop. Roughed up a bit, too. In 1981 (maybe 1982) I was held up at gunpoint. I was driving a cab at the time. Took a fare down to Avenue B and Houston. New Yorkers of a certain age will know what went on there. Two guys jumped in as my fare got out, directed me to somewhere else in Alphabet City, I pulled over to the curb at the destination, one pulled a gun and robbed me. Sucked, 'cause I still had to pay the lease fee to the cab company. I got held up at gunpoint in a movie theater in Queens in 1977. I actually got stabbed in 1979. Just nicked – the guy lunged with the knife, I was wearing a leather jacket, he got my arm, and it went through just enough to scratch me. OK? Good enough? I can have an opinion now? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/47 "2013-11-08T19:05:51Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Do I need some sort of crime victim credentials to post an opinion here? > > OK, I’ve never been mugged by four people on the subway. I was once mugged by around 8 or 10 people on the subway, though. I think it was in 1978, on the Seventh Avenue line at, if I remember right, the 103rd St. stop. Roughed up a bit, too. > > In 1981 (maybe 1982) I was held up at gunpoint. I was driving a cab at the time. Took a fare down to Avenue B and Houston. New Yorkers of a certain age will know what went on there. Two guys jumped in as my fare got out, directed me to somewhere else in Alphabet City, I pulled over to the curb at the destination, one pulled a gun and robbed me. Sucked, 'cause I still had to pay the lease fee to the cab company. > > I got held up at gunpoint in a movie theater in Queens in 1977. > > I actually got stabbed in 1979. Just nicked – the guy lunged with the knife, I was wearing a leather jacket, he got my arm, and it went through just enough to scratch me. > > OK? Good enough? I can have an opinion now? Dude, calm down. You mad a statement that seemed to indicate you’d been mugged so I asked if you had. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/48 "2013-11-08T19:07:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Goetz’s mistake was going to the police and confessing. What he should have done was > [ul][li]Shoot the four guys[/li][li]Get off the subway[/li][li]Wipe the gun clean[/li][li]Ditch the gun down a sewer opening[/li][li]Go home[/li][li]Never mention it to anyone, at any time, for any reason.[/ul]The cops would never catch him, and he could have avoided the trial and the civil verdict. [/li] > Regards, > Shodan That is pretty close to what he [actually did](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz#Flight_and_surrender): > [@](#): > > The terrified passengers ran to the other end and out of the car, leaving behind the two women who had been closest to the shooting, fallen or knocked down by the exodus, and immobilized by fear. Goetz talked to them to make sure they were not injured, then was approached by the conductor of the train. Goetz stated “They tried to rob me.” The conductor asked whether Goetz was a police officer, receiving the reply, “No.” Some time after a brief conversation in which he refused to hand over his revolver, Goetz jumped to the tracks and ran south through the tunnel to the Chambers Street station, where he exited the system. > > He went home to gather some belongings, then rented a car and drove north to Bennington, Vermont, where he burned his blue jacket and dismantled the revolver, scattering the pieces in the woods north of town. He drove around New England for several days, registering at motels under various names and paying in cash. On December 26, an anonymous hotline caller told New York City police that Goetz matched the gunman’s description, owned a gun, and had been mugged previously. > > On December 29, Goetz called his neighbor, Myra Friedman, who told him that police had come by his apartment looking for him, and had left notes asking to be contacted as soon as possible. > > … > Goetz returned to New York on December 30, turned in the car, picked up some clothing and business papers at his apartment, rented another car and drove back to New England. Shortly after noon the next day, he walked into the Concord, New Hampshire police headquarters and told the officer on duty, “I am the person they are seeking in New York.” He evidently surrendered because the police had discovered his identity, not out of some moral pang. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/49 "2013-11-08T19:16:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That is pretty close to what he [actually did](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz#Flight_and_surrender): > > He evidently surrendered because the police had discovered his identity, not out of some moral pang. I wonder how it would have turned out if he had simply refused to answer questions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/50 "2013-11-08T20:27:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I wonder how it would have turned out if he had simply refused to answer questions. > > Regards, > Shodan We can never know, but probably not any better for Goetz. Eight eyewitnesses testified at the trial, and to get the conviction they got, the state would just have to convince the jury that Goetz was the man the witnesses saw, and that he’d possessed a loaded gun on the subway that day. The state could easily prove that Goetz had no license to possess a handgun. So, barring disagreement amongst the witnesses as to whether Goetz was the man they saw, no difference. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/51 "2013-11-08T20:54:50Z")
Maybe he should have left the subway immediately, without talking to anyone. Is an anonymous call to a hotline enough to get you into a line up? But mostly I mean, instead of saying “I am the guy they are looking for in New York”, say “My name is Bernie Goetz. This is my lawyer, Mr. Howe of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe. Please direct all questions to him.” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/52 "2013-11-08T21:06:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Maybe he should have left the subway immediately, without talking to anyone. Is an anonymous call to a hotline enough to get you into a line up? That, I couldn’t tell you. > [@Shodan](#): > > But mostly I mean, instead of saying “I am the guy they are looking for in New York”, say “My name is Bernie Goetz. This is my lawyer, Mr. Howe of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe. Please direct all questions to him.” > > Regards, > Shodan If the witnesses told police that Goetz was the man they saw, that’s enough to charge him with what he was charged with, I’m fairly sure. So, this hinges on whether the anonymous tip was enough to arrest Goetz. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501/53 "2013-11-08T21:09:59Z")
Oops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-bernhard-goetz/115501.md?page=2)