# Whatever Happened to Grammatical Gender in English? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2002, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078 "2002-08-09T02:56:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/41 "2002-08-12T06:33:56Z")
My apologies about that previous link. A quick glance suggested it would be a country-by-country discussion of the gender and pluralization issues. Instead it is a well-informed rant against the adoption in Ireland of EU dictates that _euro_ and _cent_ not change spelling in Irish or English, regardless of usual grammar rules. Listening to [RTE Radio One](http://www.radio1.ie/) just now, officialdom seems to have accepted “euro” as its own plural. I can’t speak for the population at large, and I’m skeptical that “39 cent” will go down as easily. Meanwhile, the gender of most former European currencies is feminine, while that of the Euro is generally masculine. The [Sydney Morning Herald](http://old.smh.com.au/news/0112/29/text/world11.html) discusses this briefly, although they misstate the rule about plurals. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/42 "2002-08-12T10:20:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > \*\* > > My favorite example in Spanish: > > _la papa_ = the potato > > _el Papa_ = the Pope \*\* It tooks me months to realize that my Mexican wife wasn’t a pagan potato worshipper. We use that form in English, too, though, ala “papal.” ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/43 "2002-08-12T10:37:05Z")
FWIW, Russian has three genders (masculine, feminine and neutral) but no articles–hence, “book on table” not “the book is on the table.” Very economical. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/44 "2002-08-12T18:24:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akohl \* > \*\*I think that adding a dimension of gender to words adds flavour to our thoughts. Also, its more effecient. For example, If the gender is included in the verb, I can leave off the pronoun. I can say, “went to the store” instead of “she went to the store”. I can say more with fewer words. > > In Hebrew, which allows me to add lots of elements to single words, I can say with say 50 words what would take me about 80 to say in English. \*\* True, but this is a slightly different issue–you’re talking about gendered verbs, and the ability to drop the pronoun. But you’re not addressing the issue that the noun, “store”, for example, is considered masculine in some language, when there’s no inherent maleness or femaleness to such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![akohl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@akohl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akohl)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/45 "2002-08-14T06:42:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > \*\* > > True, but this is a slightly different issue–you’re talking about gendered verbs, and the ability to drop the pronoun. But you’re not addressing the issue that the noun, “store”, for example, is considered masculine in some language, when there’s no inherent maleness or femaleness to such a thing. \*\* I think that once you have gramatical gender, then you have to fit every thing into one of the categories and accept the implications in terms of article agreement and verb agreement. Hebrew, and many other languages do not have a neutral gender. (Although in Hebrew the male gender is also the default gender when the subject is unknown or when it is simply incorrect to assign one of the sex genders such as with G-d.) So the problem of assigning sex genders to sexless things is just an outcome of having gramatical gender without a neutral gender. Have I addressed the issue now? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/46 "2002-08-14T06:55:42Z")
God I just remember getting so fucking confused in the “Wol and the Nightingale” [yes - that was how they spelt “owl” in Anglo Saxon times] with the fact that IIRC “heo” was the pronoun meaning “she”. God I got those damn birds confused. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/47 "2002-08-14T08:09:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mandielise \* > \*\* > > But that’s more of a curse than a word. It’s never (to my knowledge) used without derrogatory connotation, and therefore is NOT a feminized synonym for le chien. \*\* You’re wrong. It’s the correct word for a female dog, and it’s very commonly used as such. It _can_ be used as an insult with sexual connotations, but it’s not that usual. Actually, it seems to me it’s in english that the word “bitch” is rarely used without derogatory connotation. In french, it’s perfectly OK. ---
**Author:** ![mandielise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@mandielise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandielise)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/48 "2002-08-14T19:49:42Z")
Well, since you ARE French, I’ll take your word on that one and shut my big mouth! My bad!!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Coilean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@Coilean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coilean)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/49 "2002-08-16T18:45:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > \*\*…Spanish, even with the organization, can have varied articles (el/la) for different nouns, depending on the country and dialect, especially for modern, technological words. \*\* Which brings to mind the case of Cantabrian Spanish. Here’s a list of the deciding characteristics for the assignment of intimates to masculine/feminine categories. Masc small narrow vertical tall phallic coarse dark deprecatory derived occasional Fem large wide horizontal squat supine smooth light approbatory primary familiar By way of example: montón = stack of hay-masc, motona = _very big_ stack of hay-fem. Thought the libidinous content of this system (one can almost hear Freud saying, “TOLD YOU SO!” ) is probably unique, there are a few other languages that have some interesting semantics in thier gender systems. One that really got me thinking is Tamil. In the grossest sense there is a two-tiered classification system. The top tier distinguishes rational (people, gods, and demons) from non-rational (everything else). Those things in the rational category are further divided by natual sex (male and female). The end result is a gender system that looks like the Russian one described above. But here’s the bit that knocked my socks off. A child, from birth until the age of two(ish) is classified as non-rational. As far as they’re concerned, an infant is no different than good-sized rock. ---
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/50 "2002-08-16T20:54:03Z")
In response to the previous post: I always found it odd that of the German words for fork, knife, and spoon, each with a different gender, the masculine one would be spoon and the feminine one would be fork. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/51 "2002-08-16T21:14:23Z")
You would think that male and female clothes would have genders corresponding or opposite to their wearers’. But no… I _like_ english’s genderlessness. Though we could do with a pronoun to describe people of unknown gender, of course. ---
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/52 "2002-08-16T21:46:33Z")
Actually, Shade, like the southern “y’all”, there is a grammatically incorrect solution to that problem: they/them. “If anyone comes in the office while I’m out, tell them they can wait or come back later.” ---
**Author:** ![mandielise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@mandielise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandielise)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078/53 "2002-08-16T22:23:49Z")
That’s the problem, though regnad: it’s grammatically incorrect. As we use certain words and phrases more in speech, they tend to show up more in our writing. However, English teachers will never fail to lecture us on missuse of a plural pronoun! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-grammatical-gender-in-english/123078.md?page=2)