# Whatever happened to the huge debt Trump was going to face after leaving office? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2022, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648 "2022-02-17T03:06:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/61 "2022-02-25T17:52:09Z")
Sure, but here’s one approach. (Offered purely for the hypothetical value in this discussion, not in any way to encourage such behaviour!) Andy offers to buy a car from Betty and pays with a cheque. Andy and Betty go to the vehicle licence office and Betty signs it over to Andy. Andy gets a valid licence for the car. Andy then sells the car the next day to Chris, insisting that Chris pay cash. They go to the vehicle licence shop and Andy transfers the car to Chris, using the valid licence he got from the transaction with Betty. Chris now has a valid licence for the car. Betty deposits the cheque and it bounces. Andy has left town. The principle of Bona fide purchaser for value protects Chris’ ownership of the car. Betty has been defrauded by Andy and their only recourse is to try and track down Andy. Moral: insist on cash or certified cheque or wait until the e-transfer hits your bank account before signing away ownership! ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2022, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/62 "2022-02-25T20:15:42Z")
I guess the question for legal types (hint) is whether a valid transaction where the payment is not fulfilled is different from outright theft? Betty intended to sell to Andy, but the payment did not complete (presumably deliberate fraud would be different from a confused or misguided non-payment? “I meant to have the money, but my last paycheque was not what I thought it would be.”). Whereas if Chris had bought a car from Doug, who had found it unlocked with a key under the visor (or in the cup-holder, nowadays) so the car was outright stolen, is the title for Chris less secure? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2022, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/63 "2022-02-26T02:42:46Z")
Yes and yes. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2022, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/64 "2022-02-26T02:50:44Z")
@ Northern\_Piper in your examples the person conveying to the BFP has title albeit subject to equitable interests due to that person’s failure to pay the previous owner or fraudulent prior sale to someone else. Contrastingly a thief has no title at all. The BFP is SOL. IME the only exception is where there is some form of Torrens style system where a public register is absolute. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2022, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/65 "2022-03-09T19:49:28Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Rachel Maddow’s guest host today went over some Trump debt issues. The Trump tower on Fifth Avenue has a $100M loan due Sept.6th - meanwhile it is significantly underperforming in rent, and some are bailing - Ronaldo sold his apartment there for less than 50% of what he bought it for, just to get out. [Trump Refinances $100 Million Mortgage On Trump Tower With A Bank Headed By A Political Supporter (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/trump-refinances-100-million-mortgage-on-trump-tower-with-a-bank-headed-by-a-political-supporter/ar-AAUQx2t?ocid=msedgntp) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2022, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/66 "2022-03-09T21:24:22Z")
> [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > Trump Refinances $100 Million Mortgage On Trump Tower With A Bank Headed By A Political Supporter ([msn.com](http://msn.com)) So one wonders, is this bank CEO just a deluded Trumpist who thinks everything Trump touches really is gold? Or is there something nefarious going on in the background (money laundering, or whatever), as one routine suspects where Trump is involved? Or is this guy and his bank just taking a big big risk with losing it all? Maybe the deal comes with a huge interest rate calculated to make the risk palatable? What real risk is there? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/67 "2022-03-10T09:39:56Z")
According to that article, Forbes valued Trump Tower at $285 million only about six months ago so. If this bank has a first mortgage over Trump Tower subject to no other securities, its position would seem to be moderately safe. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/68 "2022-03-10T14:52:29Z")
Depending on how much you’re a fan of judging things without evidence, it certainly seems plausible that the loan comes from “services rendered”: > **[Bank exec was improperly tipped off to damning memo: suit](https://nypost.com/2019/06/13/bank-exec-was-improperly-tipped-off-to-damning-memo-suit/)** > > The chief executive of an embattled California bank was improperly tipped off to an internal memo about allegedly questionable money transfers into his personal checking account — by the head of th… The company was under investigation and then, in 2017, the SEC dropped it. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/69 "2022-03-10T15:12:01Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > According to that article, Forbes valued Trump Tower at $285 million only about six months ago so. If this bank has a first mortgage over Trump Tower subject to no other securities, its position would seem to be moderately safe. But the thing is, that that kind of undercuts the entire premise of this thread. According to the same Forbes assessment that you cite, Trump has a total of $1.3B of debt across all his properties, and - per their linked article - a net worth of $2.5B. That would imply assets worth $3.8B and debt of $1.3B, which is about the same debt to asset ratio as Trump Tower. So if he didn’t have a problem with Trump Tower based on this ratio, then he should be OK overall based on that same ratio. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2022, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/70 "2022-03-10T16:23:11Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > it looks like the yacht story was [decades ago](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/11/29/trump-went-broke-but-stayed-on-top/e1685555-1de7-400c-99a8-9cd9c0bca9fe/). It doesn’t say whatever became of the yacht. > Trump sold the _Trump Princess_ in 1991 for a reported $19 million. It was renamed _Kingdom 5KR_ by its new owner, Prince Alwaleed bin Talal of Saudi Arabia, and now spends most of its time berthed in the south of France at Antibes. Occasionally, the boat is seen cruising to nearby Cannes or Monte Carlo. From a sentimental arms dealer to the future American president to a real Arabian Prince, what lies in the future for this exceptional floating palace? Apparently, he paid £30m for the yacht and another $8.5m to Trumpify it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/71 "2022-03-11T02:13:08Z")
I have no real clue about Trump’s overall financial position and I’m not sure too many people really do. It wouldn’t surprise me if his situation isn’t as dire as many suspect and there is a large amount of wishful thinking going on about him being bankrupt amongst those who (understandably) wish him ill. The opposite also wouldn’t surprise me. For example it could be that this bank has a first mortgage over Trump Tower and is relatively safe, but there could be 2nd tier borrowings on top of that. Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/72 "2022-03-11T05:18:28Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Apparently, he paid £30m for the yacht and another $8.5m to Trumpify it. Indeed, by Mike Doonesbury’s ex JJ in fact: > Let’s see some HOOTERS on those nymphs! ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/73 "2022-03-11T05:55:45Z")
Now I’ve got a question about this, which probably just speaks to my lack of understanding of high finance: I saw a headline somewhere that one of Trump’s kids was bragging that with this $100 mil re-fi, they now have oodles and oodles of cash. How does that work? I thought the whole idea of a re-fi is that the new loan just goes to pay off the prior loan, not to put cash in the borrower’s pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/74 "2022-03-11T06:11:38Z")
I’m not really an expert but there are a number of ways. The simplest and most likely is that they re-financed to a level greater than before eg they owed $80M but refinanced to $100M by convincing the bank they/their assets were good for it. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/75 "2022-03-11T10:03:08Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > by convincing the bank they/their assets were good for it I assume they finalized this before their accountants said “all their numbers are fake, peace out.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/76 "2022-03-11T10:25:31Z")
It would surprise me if all savvy financiers hadn’t worked this out about Trump a long, long time ago. I suspect all that happened recently was that Trump’s accountants reached a point where they could no longer ignore what they had long privately suspected. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/77 "2022-03-11T12:47:59Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I suspect all that happened recently was that Trump’s accountants reached a point where they could no longer ignore what they had long privately suspected. Too many questions, too much legal heat. Either they double down and so go down with the yacht, or back out claiming “Oops! We were duped too.” The problem I see with any executive approving a loan is, unless it’s a private corporation owned by them, the executive has a duty to his company to ensure the math works (or plausible excuse “it looked good to me” with departmental analysis to back it up) and the loan is sound - at risk of being sued by shareholders, prosecuted for fraud, etc. Or, you crowd source your lifestyle. > **[Donald Trump asks supporters to fund new Trump Force One](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/donald-trump-asks-supporters-to-fund-new-trump-force-one-qk6zfxqdc)** > > Donald Trump is asking his supporters to finance a new private plane after having to endure an emergency landing while being flown home in a borrowed aircraf ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/78 "2022-03-11T14:32:52Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I have no real clue about Trump’s overall financial position and I’m not sure too many people really do. Forbes seems to think they do, and they list the amount of debt that Trump has on all his properties. The thing about debt, especially mortgages on properties, is that they tend to be publically available. As they need to be, because other potential lenders need to know about them. You can do a title search on any property and come up with all the mortgages on that property. So I assume if Forbes reports that there was $100M in debt on that property, that’s probably solid info, and similar for the rest of his debt. > [@Senegoid](#): > > I saw a headline somewhere that one of Trump’s kids was bragging that with this $100 mil re-fi, they now have oodles and oodles of cash. How does that work? I thought the whole idea of a re-fi is that the new loan just goes to pay off the prior loan, not to put cash in the borrower’s pocket. I saw a similar quote from Eric Trump, but he was saying the converse. Not that they have oodles and oodles of cash as a result of this refi, but rather that the refi was easy because they are in such strong financial position and have lots of cash. See e.g. [Trump Refinances $100 Million Mortgage On Trump Tower With A Bank Headed By A Political Supporter (forbes.com)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacheverson/2022/03/09/trump-refinances-100-million-mortgage-on-trump-tower-with-a-bank-headed-by-a-political-supporter/?sh=5cb2c3d25500) > “Trump Tower is one of the most iconic properties in the world and sits on arguably the most prestigious corner in all of New York,” Eric said in a statement provided after this article was published. “We have incredibly low debt, have a tremendous amount of cash and have an extremely profitable company. We had no problem refinancing.” ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/79 "2022-03-12T02:27:46Z")
> [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > I saw a similar quote from Eric Trump, but he was saying the converse. Not that they have oodles and oodles of cash as a result of this refi, but rather that the refi was easy because they are in such strong financial position and have lots of cash. Aha. Mayhap I just mis-read what I thought I read. Thanx for clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648/80 "2022-03-20T03:34:56Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Something like a high end luxury yacht may take a year to sell. They depreciate worse than just about any asset you can name, and chew through serious money just to keep afloat. They really need a professional crew keeping it alive, which will now be on the bank’s dime, or the value will drop like a stone. Let alone mooring fees, and as we see, insurance. This article from over in the Russian sanctions thread supports your points: > **[Seized Russian oligarchs' yachts 'could deteriorate in a matter of weeks':...](https://www.rawstory.com/russian-oligarchs-2656992597/)** > > According to a report from Business Insider, yachts belonging to Russian oligarchs that have been seized in multiple countries due to Ukraine war sanctions will quickly fall into disrepair as authorities decide how to dispose of them.In conversation... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whatever-happened-to-the-huge-debt-trump-was-going-to-face-after-leaving-office/959648.md?page=5)