# What's a Dem President going to do about the border problem?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [July 3, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450 "2019-07-03T13:14:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/41 "2019-07-04T00:31:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> The worst part of the right wing’s approach to the current crisis is thinking that this has anything to do with our immigration laws or enforcement of them.
>
> Shame on them, and the ignorance they embrace.
>
> The current crisis is one of violence. Right now, the countries of the Northern Triangle where the vast majority of the migrants are from are in terrible shape. And yet, I think your average Fox viewer would think they are Mexicans.
>
> You know what happens when countries fall apart? People flee. Germany, the Eastern Bloc, Vietnam, Syria, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cuba, Haiti, Cambodia, the list goes on and on.
>
> And yet, the simpletons who want a wall would probably look at that list of crises and think, “Gee, what kind of immigration laws did the receiving countries have?”
>
> Gah. The obvious answer to our immigration crisis is to work with others so that the various countries in crisis get better. Spend $30 billion on that, and no more migrants from the Northern Triangle, plus the world will be a better place.
>
> Or spend $30 billion on the wall, and the migrants will still come. Because climbing a 30 foot wall is preferable to being murdered.
Between 2001 and 2017 the US government has spent a little more than a combined $5 billion on aid to [Guatemala](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/GTM?fiscal_year=2017&measure=Disbursements), [Honduras](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/HND?measure=Disbursements&fiscal_year=2017), and [El Salvador](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/SLV?measure=Disbursements&fiscal_year=2017). You really think more money is the solution?
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/42 "2019-07-04T00:54:54Z")
> [@pool](#):
>
> Did you click the link and watch the video of Fareed Zakaria who works for CNN, did you agree with any of his points?
> …
I dont give clicks to fox.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/43 "2019-07-04T00:56:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> Just a question on your views of people crossing borders: let’s say that civil war breaks out in the US, and West Virginia falls into a state of chaos in which you and your family fear for your lives because of marauding murderers having put a target on you.
>
> Can you envision a circumstance in which you may seek safe haven in another country? How do you think you should be treated when fleeing for your lives?
If the U.S. falls i to chaos, the most likely reason will be that ‘Democratic socialism’ is actually attempted.
After all, one of the main sources of refugees are the people fleeing by the millions from yet another attempt to create a socialist paradise. You know, the country that was praised by many on the left in America for its ‘bold experiment’ in socialism.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/44 "2019-07-04T01:19:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> If the U.S. falls i to chaos, the most likely reason will be that ‘Democratic socialism’ is actually attempted.
>
> After all, one of the main sources of refugees are the people fleeing by the millions from yet another attempt to create a socialist paradise. You know, the country that was praised by many on the left in America for its ‘bold experiment’ in socialism.
…yeah, America is being flooded with refugees from that cornerstone of the “bold experiment” in socialism that is known to all as Canada. The evils of Universal Healthcare! I’m surprised you haven’t headed to the borders yourself yet Sam. Its never to late to head to FREEDOM!
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### Author:  [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/45 "2019-07-04T01:26:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> I dont give clicks to fox.
Here now Fox won’t get your coveted click and you can still watch the video, just tell me if you agree he brought up any valid issues.
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=61bXkVI1XUg](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=61bXkVI1XUg)
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/46 "2019-07-04T01:30:51Z")
In Sam’s defence, Canada is still pretty far to the right in some ways:
[ol]
[li]It’s a pretty good place to be a serial killer if your target of choice is First Nations women.[/li][li]They still have the monarchy.[/li][li]They still hate the French as a matter of ethnic identity, like good Englishmen.[/li][li]Even if barristers don’t wear wigs, I think judges do?[/li][/ol]
By comparison, the USA must seem like a communist hellhole of progressivism. Add in the likelihood that you can lose everything to medical bills, it’s understandable that Canadian conservatives stay put. They just want to tell us commies down south that we’re doing everything wrong.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/47 "2019-07-04T01:42:57Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> If the U.S. falls i to chaos, the most likely reason will be that ‘Democratic socialism’ is actually attempted.
Every four years we’re warned that the Democratic presidential candidate will enact socialism if elected. Either right before or immediately after confiscating all our guns.
And four years later, we’ll receive the same warning. At what point will it occur to the average Republican voter that we aren’t socialist and we still own guns? And that maybe we should start discounting these warnings?
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> After all, one of the main sources of refugees are the people fleeing by the millions from yet another attempt to create a socialist paradise. You know, the country that was praised by many on the left in America for its ‘bold experiment’ in socialism.
Sweden?
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### Author:  [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/48 "2019-07-04T01:51:58Z")
Republicans don’t think we should invest in countries that people flee from, but they’re willing to spend orders more than that to build a ridiculous fucking wall which will still leave the fleeing people in a situation worth fleeing from. Only they’ll encounter the most impressive wall when they get here.Yeah, gotcha. The only thing missing is the plan scrawled in crayon.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/49 "2019-07-04T02:04:48Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> [li]They still hate the French as a matter of ethnic identity, like good Englishmen.[/li].
I think Québec might want a word with you.
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/50 "2019-07-04T02:46:07Z")
Depends on which one wins. For example, if it is Sanders he’ll deport them because open borders is a Koch conspiracy. If it’s Harris, she’ll probably slap a fireman’s uniform on them and send them out into the brush.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/51 "2019-07-04T03:01:15Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> If the U.S. falls i to chaos, the most likely reason will be that ‘Democratic socialism’ is actually attempted.
>
> After all, one of the main sources of refugees are the people fleeing by the millions from yet another attempt to create a socialist paradise. You know, the country that was praised by many on the left in America for its ‘bold experiment’ in socialism.
America has had “Democratic socialism” since at least 1938 when Social Security was signed into law. Then there’s the various The Antitrust Laws, starting in 1890, public libraries, Obamacare, the EPA, OSHA, the VA, Medicare, etc, etc etc.
The reason Venezuela failed was that it was Autocratic.
_Democratic_ Socialism , as opposed to Autocratic socialism, works very well.
> **[Democratic socialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism#Europe)**
>
> Democratic socialism is a left-wing set of political philosophies that supports political democracy and some form of a socially owned economy, with a particular emphasis on economic democracy, workplace democracy, and workers' self-management within a market socialist, decentralised planned, or democratic centrally planned socialist economy. Democratic socialists argue that capitalism is inherently incompatible with the values of freedom, equality, and solidarity and that these ideals The histo...
_The United Nations’ World Happiness Report shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe, where the Nordic model—which democratic socialists want to strengthen against austerity and neoliberalism—is employed, with the list being topped by Denmark, where the Social Democrats led their first government in 1924, then through the 1930s and 1940s until 1947, then again from 1953 until 1966, in 1971, from 1975 until 1981, from 1994 to 2001 and finally from 2011 to 2015. This is at times attributed to the success of the Nordic model in the region, where similar democratic socialist, labour and social democratic parties dominated the political scene and laid the ground to their universalistic welfare states in the 20th century. The Nordic countries, including Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden as well as Greenland and the Faroe Islands, also ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, economic equality, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and human development.[232][233] Likewise, countries adopting similar policies have ranked high on indicators such as civil liberties,[234] democracy,[235] press,[236] labour and economic freedoms,[237] peace[238] and freedom from corruption.[239]_
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/52 "2019-07-04T16:34:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Between 2001 and 2017 the US government has spent a little more than a combined $5 billion on aid to [Guatemala](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/GTM?fiscal_year=2017&measure=Disbursements), [Honduras](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/HND?measure=Disbursements&fiscal_year=2017), and [El Salvador](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/SLV?measure=Disbursements&fiscal_year=2017). You really think more money is the solution?
$5B is a trickle of piss into a very large bucket. That’s roughly one 100th of one year’s budget in the US. It’s like handing a homeless person a $10 bill and figuring that you’ve ensured he’ll be living in a nice, safe home by day’s end. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/53 "2019-07-04T17:00:54Z")
You guys are just absolutely determined that Democratic Socialism is the same as Social Democracy. It absolutely is not. Sweden is not a Democratic Socialist country. Neither is Canada, or any of the other Scandinavian countries.
I have linked to the Democratic Socialists of America web site many times. They are very clear in what their beliefs are - they want businesses taken away from their owners. The ones small enough will be run by ‘Worker Co-Ops’, and the ones too large to be run that way will be nationalized and run by the government. All decisions about the economy will be made ‘democratically’ (i.e. politically) rather than determined by capital or the choices of people engaging in commerce.
You may wish that they didn’t believe that, but as Jayne says, “If wishes were horses, we’d all be eating steak.”
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/54 "2019-07-04T17:04:18Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> You guys are just absolutely determined that Democratic Socialism is the same as Social Democracy. It absolutely is not. Sweden is not a Democratic Socialist country. Neither is Canada, or any of the other Scandinavian countries.
>
> I have linked to the Democratic Socialists of America web site many times. They are very clear in what their beliefs are - they want businesses taken away from their owners. The ones small enough will be run by ‘Worker Co-Ops’, and the ones too large to be run that way will be nationalized and run by the government. All decisions about the economy will be made ‘democratically’ (i.e. politically) rather than determined by capital or the choices of people engaging in commerce.
>
> You may wish that they didn’t believe that, but as Jayne says, “If wishes were horses, we’d all be eating steak.”
That some folks who identify as “Democratic Socialists” want to do this doesn’t mean that all who identify as or support Democratic Socialists/Socialism do. I’m unaware of AOC or Bernie advocating for taking away small businesses from their owners, or nationalizing all or most large businesses.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/55 "2019-07-04T17:23:28Z")
AOC is a card-carrying member of the Democratic Socialists of America.
If a Republican was a member of the Nazi Party, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t accept a defense such as, “Well sure, he might be a member, but he doesn’t _really_ believe all that white supremacist stuff. Maybe he just misunderstood what they stand for. And besides, I haven’t heard him mention gassing the Jews even once.”
If you read their web page and decide “This is an organization I want to join,” then I am going to assume that you are at least broadly aligned with what they want. Because you’d have to be an idiot to join the DSA if you believe in free markets and private ownership of business, but just want a stronger social safety net.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/56 "2019-07-04T17:31:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> You guys are just absolutely determined that Democratic Socialism is the same as Social Democracy. It absolutely is not. Sweden is not a Democratic Socialist country. Neither is Canada, or any of the other Scandinavian countries.
>
> I have linked to the Democratic Socialists of America web site many times. They are very clear in what their beliefs are - they want businesses taken away from their owners. …
> **[Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) - Working towards a better future for...](https://www.dsausa.org/)**
>
> Working towards a better future for all.
\*Current Campaigns
DSA and YDSA chapters organize around a variety of issues based on local priorities, especially labor solidarity and anti-austerity work. However, the national office provides resources and support for the main activist priorities of the organization as voted on by delegates to our national convention:
Medicare for All
Strong Unions\*
Boy those are sure scary. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/57 "2019-07-04T17:32:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Between 2001 and 2017 the US government has spent a little more than a combined $5 billion on aid to [Guatemala](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/GTM?fiscal_year=2017&measure=Disbursements), [Honduras](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/HND?measure=Disbursements&fiscal_year=2017), and [El Salvador](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/SLV?measure=Disbursements&fiscal_year=2017). You really think more money is the solution?
Current spending levels are about the same as we spend on military bands.
> **[Military Is Asked to March to a Less Expensive Tune (Published 2016)](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/us/military-bands-budget.html)**
>
> Amid troop reductions and budget tightening, the House is trying to force the Defense Department to rein in spending on its 6,500 musicians.
If people coming over the border is a bigger problem than a military ceremony without John Philip Sousa being played live as opposed to by mp3, I think we can reallocate to higher priorities.
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### Author:  [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/58 "2019-07-04T18:08:32Z")
That assumes that foreign aid to those countries would improve conditions for those who view migration as beneficial. Unfortunately foreign aid often intensifies internal struggles to control the state apparatus and worsens conditions for the recipient countries.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/59 "2019-07-04T18:32:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#):
>
> That assumes that foreign aid to those countries would improve conditions for those who view migration as beneficial. Unfortunately foreign aid often intensifies internal struggles to control the state apparatus and worsens conditions for the recipient countries.
Yeah, Japan and Western Europe are real shitholes. You’ve really come through with another excellent point.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 4, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-dem-president-going-to-do-about-the-border-problem/836450/60 "2019-07-04T19:29:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> AOC is a card-carrying member of the Democratic Socialists of America.
>
> If a Republican was a member of the Nazi Party, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t accept a defense such as, “Well sure, he might be a member, but he doesn’t _really_ believe all that white supremacist stuff. Maybe he just misunderstood what they stand for. And besides, I haven’t heard him mention gassing the Jews even once.”
>
> If you read their web page and decide “This is an organization I want to join,” then I am going to assume that you are at least broadly aligned with what they want. Because you’d have to be an idiot to join the DSA if you believe in free markets and private ownership of business, but just want a stronger social safety net.
I’m not joining the organization, but I don’t accept your description as accurate. Their website specifically rejects central planning of an economy, and specifically endorses market forces for consumer goods.
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