# What's a graven image? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295 "2011-08-11T03:29:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/1 "2011-08-11T03:29:42Z")
Regarding the second commandment. Is a graven image any statue/image as I would gather from a reading the “King James Bible” or an idol as per the “The New Oxford Annotated Bible?” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/2 "2011-08-11T03:37:04Z")
Yeah, it’s an image carved in wood or stone that is supposed to represent a deity by being worshiped. That’s the key part. The commandment is saying basically that you should worship God, not an image that represents God. DtC would probably be able to give you a more detailed answer if he wanders in. -XT ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/3 "2011-08-11T04:47:40Z")
Well the commandment goes on to say “or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”, so it is reasonable to say that any depiction of a plant or animal is forbidden. Certainly images of Saints fall into that. It’s just another thing that religious people ignore because it is inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/4 "2011-08-11T04:51:15Z")
Graven is a now obsolete past participle meaning “engraved”. Where nowadays, you would say, “The jeweler has engraved the couple’s name on the wedding band”, in 1600, you would say, “The jeweler has graven the couple’s name on the wedding ring.” (or, probably, “The Jeweller hath graven the name of the couple on the wedding rynge.”) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/5 "2011-08-11T05:02:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Yeah, it’s an image carved in wood or stone that is supposed to represent a deity by being worshiped. That’s the key part. The commandment is saying basically that you should worship God, not an image that represents God. > > DtC would probably be able to give you a more detailed answer if he wanders in. > > -XT This is pretty much it. It’s fairly simple. It refers to carved images and statues of gods. It was also interpreted to included engraved images of monarchs on coins (hence the prohibition on using Roman currency at the Temple). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/6 "2011-08-11T05:13:35Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Well the commandment goes on to say “or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”, so it is reasonable to say that any depiction of a plant or animal is forbidden. Certainly images of Saints fall into that. It’s just another thing that religious people ignore because it is inconvenient. In point of fact, the Commandment says not to _worship_ those images (or what they represent). So unless anyone is actually _worshipping_ images of plants, animals or saints, there is no violation of the commandment. Incidentally, this commandment can be expanded metaphorically to mean a devotion to other kinds of artificial “false gods,” like money, power, etc. Some denominations even believe that an erroneous, but sincere and well-meaning worship of the “wrong” god is _not_ necessarily idolotry or sinful (a fellow like Gandhi, for instance). They see it as a question of what you’re pursuing for yourself more than necessarily literally getting the name of the god right. Of course, other denominations do take it extremely literally. It’s Jebus or death, but many are capable of taking a step back and considering a deeper intent. ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/7 "2011-08-11T05:16:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was also interpreted to included engraved images of monarchs on coins (hence the prohibition on using Roman currency at the Temple). Does anyone still follow this interpretation? All of our coins in Canada have the image of a monarch on them. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/8 "2011-08-11T05:21:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Incidentally, this commandment can be expanded metaphorically to mean a devotion to other kinds of artificial “false gods,” like money, power, etc. To [elaborate](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWshPH_jsjQ): It’s Mooby Cow! _Don’t run!!_ ETA: Gum? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/9 "2011-08-11T05:27:17Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > Does anyone still follow this interpretation? I think there a small fringe of ultra-orthodox Jews who still adhere to a strict interpretation, but for the most part Jews and Christians alike really see it as designating actual idolotrous objects (literal or symbolic) of worship, not just any random image at all. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/10 "2011-08-11T05:49:29Z")
Just to add that the interpretation of this commandment has been the cause of endless strife in Christianity, eg [Byzantine iconoclasm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm#Byzantine_iconoclasm), Puritan destruction of images in the Reformation, etc. (And, _pace_ **Diogenes** , many Protestant sects still interpret the commandment extremely strictly). ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/11 "2011-08-11T06:09:16Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > Does anyone still follow this interpretation? All of our coins in Canada have the image of a monarch on them. It wouldn’t be an issue today because. AFAIK, no rulers are considered to be gods. Once again, the objection wasn’t to the use images, it was to the use of images of _gods_. The later Roman emperors were considered to be literal gods, and were worshipped as such. That created a bit of a sticking point when it came to coins with their images, since it made the coin a literal graven image of a god. But AFAIK the Japanese Emperor was the last ruler who was considered to be a god, and that was given up after WWII. So today it would be almost impossible for someone to object to images of rulers on coins. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/12 "2011-08-11T07:11:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In point of fact, the Commandment says not to _worship_ those images (or what they represent). So unless anyone is actually _worshipping_ images of plants, animals or saints, there is no violation of the commandment. In point of fact it says that you should not make images nor worship them. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/13 "2011-08-11T10:02:40Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > In point of fact it says that you should not make images nor worship them. That depends on the translation (or interpretation, if you’re reading the original). Some translate/interpret the commandment as prohibiting the manufacture of “idols”, not just any old image. An idol, in this case, is by definition something used for worship, so under this interpretation making graven depictions of things for non-worship use is fine. ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/15 "2011-08-11T13:16:40Z")
I’m not so much concerned with how later people interpret it. I’m more interested in the origin, perhaps in what the original Hebrew text says or whatever language it was written in. In the KJV, Exodus 20:4-5 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” To me it sounds like they are saying not to make any images of any kind. Second, it says not to worship any of said images. When I look up the definition of graven it says “deeply impressed, firmly fixed, carved, sculptured” which sounds like it’s including just about any image a person would make. However the New Oxford Annotated Bible it says: “You shall not make for yourself an idol…” The above sounds a lot more like how people today interpret the 2nd commandment, but it seems significantly from the first. There is no mention of graven images. So I’m wondering how the original worded it, how it was translated in each case, and if there is any way to prove which one is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/16 "2011-08-11T14:47:19Z")
What about crosses and crucifixes? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/17 "2011-08-11T15:07:34Z")
> [@G35S](#): > > I’m not so much concerned with how later people interpret it. I’m more interested in the origin, perhaps in what the original Hebrew text says or whatever language it was written in. > > In the KJV, Exodus 20:4-5 > > “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” > > To me it sounds like they are saying not to make any images of any kind. Second, it says not to worship any of said images. When I look up the definition of graven it says “deeply impressed, firmly fixed, carved, sculptured” which sounds like it’s including just about any image a person would make. If you’re interested in the original meaning, then the KJV is not the place to look for it, since the KJV is a translation made thousands of years after the original. Even if you’re interested only in the meaning of the KJV, then beware of using a modern dictionary to get definitions of the words it uses, since the meanings of words change over time. It is often the case that an older text uses a word in a sense which is no longer common (or even unheard of) today. > [@](#): > > However the New Oxford Annotated Bible it says: > > “You shall not make for yourself an idol…” > > The above sounds a lot more like how people today interpret the 2nd commandment, but it seems significantly from the first. There is no mention of graven images. So I’m wondering how the original worded it, how it was translated in each case, and if there is any way to prove which one is correct. I’d be more inclined to trust the rendering of the OAB; modern scholarly Bible translations tend to rely on sources and lexicographical techniques which were not available a few hundred years ago, and moreover render the text into modern language. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/18 "2011-08-11T15:08:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What about crosses and crucifixes? I would assume that worshiping a depiction of the actual God incarnate might fall under different rules? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/19 "2011-08-11T15:20:58Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I would assume that worshiping a depiction of the actual God incarnate might fall under different rules? I doubt it – every Christian sect I’m aware of forbids the worship of idols, regardless what they represent. Some of them forbid icons outright; others permit them but are quite insistent that they’re not the actual _object_ of worship. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/20 "2011-08-11T15:26:44Z")
Nobody literally worships crucifixes, though. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/21 "2011-08-11T15:30:30Z")
> [@G35S](#): > > However the New Oxford Annotated Bible it says: > > “You shall not make for yourself an idol…” > > The above sounds a lot more like how people today interpret the 2nd commandment, but it seems significantly from the first. There is no mention of graven images. So I’m wondering how the original worded it, how it was translated in each case, and if there is any way to prove which one is correct. This site claims to be a Hebrew to English translation: > [@](#): > > Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295.md?page=2)