# What's a graven image? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295 "2011-08-11T03:29:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/22 "2011-08-11T15:31:04Z")
Isn’t it a common Protestant complaint about Catholicism though, that the latter is (supposedly) fixated on icons and physical objects not even associated with God or Jesus but of various humans venerated as saints? For anybody, though, Protestant or Catholic, if one starts treating the cross around one’s neck or hanging on the wall as something like a lucky rabbit’s foot, I suppose that distracts from trying to know God and might possibly be idolatrous in that sense. But I don’t know anything . . . ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/23 "2011-08-11T15:34:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nobody literally worships crucifixes, though. Iconoclasts have historically, on occasion, objected to the use of the image of Jesus on a crucifix, and insisted on its being replaced by a plain cross. Particulary, certain Protestants. > **[Crucifix | Controversies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifix#Controversies)** > > In the Moravian Church, Nicolaus Zinzendorf had an experience in which he believed he encountered Jesus. Seeing a painting of a crucifix, Zinzendorf fell on his knees vowing to glorify Jesus after contemplating on the wounds of Christ and an inscription that stated "This is what I have done for you, what will you do for me?". > The Lutheran Churches retained the use of the crucifix, "justifying their continued use of medieval crucifixes with the same arguments employed since the Middle Ages, as is... > [@](#): > > Early Protestants generally rejected the use of the crucifix, and indeed the unadorned cross, along with other traditional religious imagery, as idolatrous. Martin Luther did not object to them, and this was among his differences with Andreas Karlstadt as early as 1525. Calvin was violently opposed to both cross and crucifix. In England the Royal Chapels of Elizabeth I were most unusual among English churches in retaining crucifixes, following the Queen’s personal conservative preferences. Under James I these disappeared, and their brief re-appearance in the early 1620s when James’ heir was seeking a Spanish marriage was the subject of rumour and close observation by both Catholics and Protestants; when the match fell through they disappeared.[11] Opposition to plain crosses has generally softened in Protestantism, but many Protestant groups still oppose the crucifix. ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/24 "2011-08-11T17:46:39Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > This site claims to be a Hebrew to English translation: > > Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; That sounds a lot more like the KJV than the New Oxford one. ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/25 "2011-08-11T17:50:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nobody literally worships crucifixes, though. But lots of people “bow down before them” and a literal reading of both bibles suggest just doing so is a violation of the commandment. ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/26 "2011-08-11T17:55:35Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I’d be more inclined to trust the rendering of the OAB; modern scholarly Bible translations tend to rely on sources and lexicographical techniques which were not available a few hundred years ago, and moreover render the text into modern language. I’m inclined to agree with you. However, if the direct Hebrew to English citation above is correct then it sure seems to favor the legitimacy of the KJV over the OAB on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/27 "2011-08-11T20:56:13Z")
Another complication to interpretation is that the Ten Commandments show up in multiple places in the Old Testament, and not with exactly the same wording each time. Plus, of course, Judaism has hundreds of commandments, not just ten. IIRC, the Ten are regarded by Jews not as commandments in and of themselves, but as categories of commandments. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/28 "2011-08-12T06:39:15Z")
> [@G35S](#): > > I’m inclined to agree with you. However, if the direct Hebrew to English citation above is correct then it sure seems to favor the legitimacy of the KJV over the OAB on this matter. What would lead you to believe that website’s Hebrew to English translation over the OAB’s Hebrew to English translation? ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/29 "2011-08-12T14:19:50Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > What would lead you to believe that website’s Hebrew to English translation over the OAB’s Hebrew to English translation? Nothing would, that’s why I’m asking. I want to know if anyone knows how the Hebrew to English translation took place to see which is more true to the original. My NOAB wasn’t “annotated” to say how the difference came to be. The difference does seem meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/30 "2011-08-12T14:22:28Z")
If you’ve got an agenda could you come out and state your case? When somebody repeatedly acknowledges others’ points with “but how do we really know? I’m just asking . . .” IME it’s usually revealed as a passive-aggressive attempt to promote some non-mainstream theory. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/31 "2011-08-12T15:55:21Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > I think there a small fringe of ultra-orthodox Jews who still adhere to a strict interpretation, but for the most part Jews and Christians alike really see it as designating actual idolotrous objects (literal or symbolic) of worship, not just any random image at all. Orthodox Jews definitely still believe that one should not own sculpted images of anything. However, this prohibition applies only to actual, 3-dimensional likenesses, not relief sculptures (as on coins) or images that are entirely 2-dimensional. Also, the likeness has to be extremely life-like in order to be prohibited. An image can be made permitted by simply removing a piece of what the real-world item has (e.g., removing an ear from a scuplture of a person). Something as crude as, say, a Raggedy Ann doll would not be prohibited. I once asked my rabbi about more life-like dolls such as Barbie or G.I. Joe. He said that most authorities (including himself) consider children’s toys to be an exception as they are being subjected to abuse rather than to respect. However, a sculpted piece that is meant to be admired (even if not worshipped as a diety) is forbidden as a “graven image.” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/32 "2011-08-12T16:07:55Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > a Raggedy Ann doll would not be prohibited. > > I once asked my rabbi about more life-like dolls such as Barbie or G.I. Joe. He said that most authorities (including himself) consider children’s toys to be an exception as they are being subjected to abuse rather than to respect. However, a sculpted piece that is meant to be admired (even if not worshipped as a diety) is forbidden as a “graven image.” So basically, if you want to be kosher with your Star Wars men you need to take them out of the box? ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/33 "2011-08-12T16:39:36Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > If you’ve got an agenda could you come out and state your case? When somebody repeatedly acknowledges others’ points with “but how do we really know? I’m just asking . . .” IME it’s usually revealed as a passive-aggressive attempt to promote some non-mainstream theory. > [@Koxinga](#): > > If you’ve got an agenda could you come out and state your case? When somebody repeatedly acknowledges others’ points with “but how do we really know? I’m just asking . . .” IME it’s usually revealed as a passive-aggressive attempt to promote some non-mainstream theory. I just want to know if the translation is squarely in one camp, the other camp, or if there is agreement that nobody really knows. If someone knows or could link the wording the original Hebrew, and could link a Hebrew/English dictionary that might remove some of the confusion, or at least illustrate where much confusion there is and where it comes from. Or are there conflicting accounts in the original Hebrew even before it’s translated to English. That’s what I’m trying to find out. I would have posted this in “general questions” but since it’s religious and I thought it might be contentious I put it in “great debates.” ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/34 "2011-08-16T15:44:26Z")
> [@G35S](#): > > If someone knows or could link the wording the original Hebrew, and could link a Hebrew/English dictionary that might remove some of the confusion, or at least illustrate where much confusion there is and where it comes from. Or are there conflicting accounts in the original Hebrew even before it’s translated to English. That’s what I’m trying to find out. I would have posted this in “general questions” but since it’s religious and I thought it might be contentious I put it in “great debates.” Sounds like nobody knows. Funny because people jump out of the woodwork to tell you what’s in the original manuscripts of the New Testament and how it should be translated. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/35 "2011-08-16T15:47:39Z")
The New Testament books weren’t written in Hebrew, and the graven image prohibition isn’t featured prominently there anyway AFAIK. That aside, well, I guess you showed _us_. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/36 "2011-08-16T16:19:06Z")
> [@G35S](#): > > Sounds like nobody knows. Funny because people jump out of the woodwork to tell you what’s in the original manuscripts of the New Testament and how it should be translated. Personally, I studied Greek and Latin, but not Hebrew. There are people on the board who know Biblical Hebrew, but they apparently haven’t wandered into this thread. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/37 "2011-08-16T16:23:02Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > So basically, if you want to be kosher with your Star Wars men you need to take them out of the box? You can beat Barbie, you just can’t kiss her. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/38 "2011-08-17T20:12:57Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > Personally, I studied Greek and Latin, but not Hebrew. There are people on the board who know Biblical Hebrew, but they apparently haven’t wandered into this thread. I know Biblical Hebrew, and I had wandered into this thread. I didn’t realize that the translation was still in doubt, it seemed well covered pretty early on. The Hebrew word that is translated as “graven image” is “Pesel” which means “sculpture.” The root of the verb (P-S-L) pretty much means “declare/render unfit”, and the process of sculpture is to take a block of material and remove/discard the pieces that do not belong, thus creating the desired form. (Also forbidden is “Masecha”, translated as a “molten image”, i.e., cast from molten metal - or plastic, in modern times - rather than sculpted solid.) ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/39 "2011-08-18T00:50:41Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I once asked my rabbi about more life-like dolls such as Barbie or G.I. Joe… Barbie, G.I. Joe, etc would seem to be safe based on the other part of your explanation anyway as they are missing various… errrmmm… “attributes” found on their real-world equivalents. On the other hand, anyone owning a _Realdoll_ is probably breaking an _additional_ commandment. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/40 "2011-08-18T02:47:47Z")
Apollyon: > [@](#): > > Barbie, G.I. Joe, etc would seem to be safe based on the other part of your explanation anyway as they are missing various… errrmmm… “attributes” found on their real-world equivalents. On the other hand, anyone owning a Realdoll is probably breaking an additional commandment. I should specify: it’s mainly the realism of the face that matters. The rest of the body not really so much. (I am not a Rabbi; I could be a little mistaken in the precise details.) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/41 "2011-08-18T02:54:20Z")
One thing I’m curious about: I get the perhaps superficial impression that Christians take a more metaphorical approach to these kids of rules whereas Jews take a more literal approach. E.g., my link to the scene from _Dogma_ above – it seemed like the two angels were more enraged by the executives’ worship of money and power (metaphorical idolatry) than by the fact that there was a literal golden calf in the room. Am I off base in this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295.md?page=3)