# What's a graven image? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295 "2011-08-11T03:29:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/42 "2011-08-18T03:47:11Z")
Well, certainly traditional Jews feel the Old Testament laws are to be followed more literally than Christians do, but that’s hardly news. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/43 "2011-08-18T04:08:24Z")
One argument sometimes presented is that since God had not yet presented Himself in physical form to the Old Testament Hebrews, that it was improper for them to make physical representations of Him, but that since He has presented Himself in physical form for Christians, that prohibition no longer applies. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/44 "2011-08-18T04:14:40Z")
The question I’ve always had is: why did the Ark of the Covenant include graven or molten images on the cover? Sure, they are depictions from heaven, but those are supposed to be forbidden, too, right? It seems to me that the worship interpretation must be the right one, if holy objects can contain said images. ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/45 "2011-08-18T04:56:57Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Diogenes: > The Hebrew word that is translated as “graven image” is “Pesel” which means “sculpture.” The root of the verb (P-S-L) pretty much means “declare/render unfit”, and the process of sculpture is to take a block of material and remove/discard the pieces that do not belong, thus creating the desired form. (Also forbidden is “Masecha”, translated as a “molten image”, i.e., cast from molten metal - or plastic, in modern times - rather than sculpted solid.) Sounds to me that the KJV is more accurate than the NOAB in this case. I just found this and it seems to lean the same way:[http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo20.pdf](http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo20.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/46 "2011-08-18T07:58:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The question I’ve always had is: why did the Ark of the Covenant include graven or molten images on the cover? Sure, they are depictions from heaven, but those are supposed to be forbidden, too, right? > > It seems to me that the worship interpretation must be the right one, if holy objects can contain said images. If the Ark and the Inner Sanctum were not places/objects of worship in Judaism, it is hard to imaging what in the history of the world could possibly qualify. Moses also made a graven image of a serpent for the Israelites to worship to be cured of disease. So the worship prohibition just doesn’t work. The explanation appears to be simply that the construction of the Ark and the serpent were literally commanded by the voice of God. Direct word-of-God always superceded any laws. If God tells the Jews not to do something, he can damn well tell them to do it later, or vice versa. A more interesting theological point is that the later Kings of Israel sat upon a throne with prominent graven images on it. There is no mention that this was commanded by God, which is incongruous to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/47 "2011-08-18T12:46:38Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > If the Ark and the Inner Sanctum were not places/objects of worship in Judaism, it is hard to imaging what in the history of the world could possibly qualify. Moses also made a graven image of a serpent for the Israelites to worship to be cured of disease. So the worship prohibition just doesn’t work. > > The explanation appears to be simply that the construction of the Ark and the serpent were literally commanded by the voice of God. Direct word-of-God always superceded any laws. If God tells the Jews not to do something, he can damn well tell them to do it later, or vice versa. > > A more interesting theological point is that the later Kings of Israel sat upon a throne with prominent graven images on it. There is no mention that this was commanded by God, which is incongruous to say the least. The Ark was not worshipped. Nor did Moses tell the Israelites to worship the bronze serpent but only to look upon it for healing- and that only from the bites of the plague of snakes. When later generations started using the bronze serpent as an object of veneration, one of the godlier kings destroyed it. ---
**Author:** ![G35S](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/g35s/32/7295_2.png) [@G35S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G35S)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/48 "2011-08-18T13:04:59Z")
> [@G35S](#): > > Sounds to me that the KJV is more accurate than the NOAB in this case. I just found this and it seems to lean the same way:[http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo20.pdf](http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo20.pdf) My link don’t work. Maybe this one will if you click on Exodus 20 > **[Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible](https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm)** > > Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/49 "2011-08-18T15:07:50Z")
BigT: > [@](#): > > The question I’ve always had is: why did the Ark of the Covenant include graven or molten images on the cover? Sure, they are depictions from heaven, but those are supposed to be forbidden, too, right? The general answer here is that there were numerous things that were commanded for Temple use that were not permitted for general use. Another major example is that many of the Priestly garments were made from both wool and linen, which is forbidden for an ordinary person, or a Priest while not performing Temple service, to wear. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295/50 "2011-08-18T20:27:21Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I should specify: it’s mainly the realism of the face that matters. The rest of the body not really so much. (I am not a Rabbi; I could be a little mistaken in the precise details.) Interesting, thank you. Always good to learn new things. You did use “missing an ear” in your earlier example… I was extrapolating (incorrectly) to alternate missing anatomical correctness. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-graven-image/592295.md?page=2)