# What's behind the "Threat to Traditional Marriage" argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699 "2010-12-02T19:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/221 "2010-12-13T12:39:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > We could give the straight soldiers the Medal of Honor, and the gay soldiers the Medal of Floogenwowsen. It would be just like the Medal of Honor. > _Riiiight_. Kind of clever but not really. The Medal of Honour is about bravery on the battlefield. Once you start giving it to people who didn’t show bravery on the battlefield, you diminish its value. Once you stop celebrating the love that exists between a man and a woman by offering it to people not doing this, you diminish its value. The concept is actually perfectly analogous in that sense, but yeah, I’ve been around debates long enough to know that when such counter-examples get pushed, opponents will, when no other arguement is available to them, pretend they don’t understand the difference between _concept_, compared with the _articles_ in the example used to demonstrate it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/222 "2010-12-13T12:43:15Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Ok, answer my question about the separate celebrations of Mothers Day and Fathers Day. I expect to see plenty of moral outrage at the separate nature of what the two days are celebrating. Do you know what the fourth Sunday of every July is? Parents’ Day. It has been an official holiday since 1994. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/223 "2010-12-13T12:48:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you know what the fourth Sunday of every July is? Parents’ Day. It has been an official holiday since 1994. Actually I didn’t know that. Can you answer my question now? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/224 "2010-12-13T12:49:17Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > The Medal of Honour is about bravery on the battlefield. Once you start giving it to people who didn’t show bravery on the battlefield, you diminish its value. Do gay soldiers deserve the Medal of Honor? You cannot know if they are brave the same way straight people are brave-maybe they are “brave” in a certain way that doesn’t correspond to the way you think “brave” should be. Now, I’m not saying that what they experience is _less_ than than bravery straight soldiers experience, but since we cannot know, why don’t we just give them the different(but equal-_really!_) Medal of Floogenwowsen? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/225 "2010-12-13T12:50:52Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > This is like arguing that changing the rules for the handing out of a Medal of Honor so that every active serviceman gets one in no way devalues the Medal of Honor. > > _Obvious_ hogwash. Bullshit. In your example, if you give the Medal of Honor to every active serviceman means you’re giving that award to every serviceman _whether they earned it or not_. Of \*course \*that would devalue the Medal. What you’re \*actually \*arguing for, though, is that giving the Medal of Honor to a black person somehow devalues the award given to a white serviceman simply because the Medal has historically only been given to whites. Clear? Or do you need it explained further? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/226 "2010-12-13T12:52:43Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Actually I didn’t know that. > > Can you answer my question now? It would be like issuing Marriage licenses to everybody(Parents’ Day), while marking on the form itself whether the couple was gay or straight(Mother’s Day or Father’s Day). ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/227 "2010-12-13T12:53:48Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Bullshit. In your example, if you give the Medal of Honor to every active serviceman means you’re giving that award to every serviceman _whether they earned it or not_. Of \*course \*that would devalue the Medal. > > What you’re \*actually \*arguing for, though, is that giving the Medal of Honor to a black person somehow devalues the award given to a white serviceman simply because the Medal has historically only been given to whites. > > Clear? Or do you need it explained further? I will happily tackle these questions as soon as people lay out for me, with all their moral outrage fueling their keyboard fingers, how disgusted they are at the blatant discrimination going on between parents by separating their celebration in to two different days. Let me have it. Let your moral outrage flow free. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/228 "2010-12-13T12:54:11Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Actually I didn’t know that. Then can we assume that you will never again use that strained example again? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/229 "2010-12-13T12:54:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It would be like issuing Marriage licenses to everybody(Parents’ Day), while marking on the form itself whether the couple was gay or straight(Mother’s Day or Father’s Day). Nope! Marking something on a form is a pretty lame way to celebrate something! Try again? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/230 "2010-12-13T12:55:23Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Ok, answer my question about the separate celebrations of Mothers Day and Fathers Day. I expect to see plenty of moral outrage at the separate nature of what the two days are celebrating. If the celebration Mother’s Day and Father’s Day resulted in differnt federal tax rules, different insurance benefits, or hospital visitation rights, then we would be trying to reform them. But they don’t. And when different “celebrations” result in different treatments under the law, then it is time to examine them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/231 "2010-12-13T12:55:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then can we assume that you will never again use that strained example again? **sigh** Never mind-you’ve already ignored it. In record time, I might add. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/232 "2010-12-13T12:56:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then can we assume that you will never again use that strained example again? I couldn’t care less about unofficial holidays, I care what I see people actually celebrating. And by crikey, people are celebrating _en-masse_ **Mothers Day** as a separate and distinct celebration from **Fathers Day**. _Where_ is your moral outrage at this blatant discrimination? Show it to me! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/233 "2010-12-13T12:58:15Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Nope! Marking something on a form is a pretty lame way to celebrate something! > > Try again? Nope. **DrFidelius** shows how off-topic your silly analogy is in the post following yours, so I think I’ll just ignore that particular hi-jack. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/234 "2010-12-13T12:59:50Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If the celebration Mother’s Day and Father’s Day resulted in differnt federal tax rules, different insurance benefits, or hospital visitation rights, then we would be trying to reform them. > > But they don’t. And when different “celebrations” result in different treatments under the law, then it is time to examine them. If what you’re proposing is that gay couples whose relationship has some sort of formal legal status get the exact same legal protection as different-sex couples whose relationship has some form of legal status _and this alone is what they want_, we’d have no debate, no arguement, no threat to traditional marriage and no thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/235 "2010-12-13T12:59:56Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Ok, answer my question about the separate celebrations of Mothers Day and Fathers Day. I expect to see plenty of moral outrage at the separate nature of what the two days are celebrating. Why? There are no legal ramifications to these holidays, no special privileges extended or protected by government agencies. The stakes are not high enough (arguably, the stakes don’t even exist) for moral outrage. Meanwhile, Couple A can get a marriage license and all the attendant benefits just by applying, while Couple B cannot. Why? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/236 "2010-12-13T13:01:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why? There are no legal ramifications to these holidays, no special privileges extended or protected by government agencies. The stakes are not high enough (arguably, the stakes don’t even exist) for moral outrage. > > Meanwhile, Couple A can get a marriage license and all the attendant benefits just by applying, while Couple B cannot. Why? Sure. Give them equal legal protection. Just don’t call it marriage. Call it floogenwowsen. Or Shuttlepoppy. Or Cobono-mojo. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/237 "2010-12-13T13:02:34Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > If what you’re proposing is that gay couples whose relationship has some sort of formal legal status get the exact same legal protection as different-sex couples whose relationship has some form of legal status _and this alone is what they want_, we’d have no debate, no arguement, no threat to traditional marriage and no thread. Ah, yes-“traditional marriage” At what date would you say “traditional marriage” began-give or take 10 years? ---
**Author:** ![conurepete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@conurepete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/conurepete)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/238 "2010-12-13T13:04:20Z")
The argument is still pretty silly, there is a huge difference between getting a “day” to celebrate on the calendar instead of access to a huge body of established rights and laws. But if celebrating the special love between a heterosexual man and woman is that important, let people have SSM and I will vote for SLBHMW day. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/239 "2010-12-13T13:05:15Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Sure. Give them equal legal protection. > > Just don’t call it marriage. > > Call it floogenwowsen. Or Shuttlepoppy. Or Cobono-mojo. When you’re done giggling over the silly names you’ve created for the silly idea that people should fight for their rights, perhaps we can have as serious conversation. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/240 "2010-12-13T13:05:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Ah, yes-“traditional marriage” > At what date would you say “traditional marriage” began-give or take 10 years? Because there’s no such thing as traditional _anything_ if you can’t put a start date on it. … or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699.md?page=13)