# What's behind the "Threat to Traditional Marriage" argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699 "2010-12-02T19:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/41 "2010-12-03T15:56:06Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > One of the best explanations that I ever read is: [Asymmetrical Information](http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/005244.html) > It’s a long article, but well worth the read. No, it really wasn’t. If I wanted to read something a stupid person wrote I could have found something much shorter on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/42 "2010-12-03T16:04:35Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Well, he’s right about that. 😃 Of the four previous states that instituted civil unions 3 have switched to full civil marriage after only a few years; one was by court order (CT), but the other two were by legislative vote (VT and NH). And there’s alot of agitation in New Jersey for full marriage (probally won’t happen under the current governor). Illinois will have full marriage equality withing a decade. On behalf of straight people everywhere, I congratulate America’s gay population on their ever-increasing opportunities to enjoy the benefits of loveless marriage and acrimonious divorce that we heterosexuals have denied all others for far, far too long. You’re welcome. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/43 "2010-12-03T16:06:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Another argument is that since gay male relationships break up more often than do heterosexual ones, gay male marriages are going to break up at much higher rates than heterosexual marriages and therefore social attitudes (and perhaps even the law) will change to encourage the break up of marriage even more than it is now. This doesn’t address lesbian relationships, of course. > > It is related to, but not identical to, the Britney Spears argument alluded to above. Yes, Spears certainly demeaned the institution of marriage with her antics. Imagine how much worse our society will be with millions more gay men acting in the same “marry in haste, repent at leisure” way. You understand that this is all garbage, of course. The “law will change to encourage the break up of marriage?” Are you fucking kidding me? Britney Spears has not affected my marriage or yours, and neither would any same sex divorces. This is ridiculous, straw-clutching nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/44 "2010-12-03T16:10:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Another argument is that since gay male relationships break up more often than do heterosexual ones, gay male marriages are going to break up at much higher rates than heterosexual marriages and therefore social attitudes (and perhaps even the law) will change to encourage the break up of marriage even more than it is now. This doesn’t address lesbian relationships, of course. That argument relies on a massive assumption: that the dynamics of gay male relationships will remain the same even after they’re legitimized. Is there any evidence that same sex couples _divorce_ at a higher rate than traditional ones? ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/45 "2010-12-03T16:12:34Z")
To say nothing of the fact that it takes a colossal amount of gall to complain about the transient nature of gay male relationships when the exact same segments of society who are supposedly so concerned with it have spent, and continue to spend, time and resources to marginalize, ostracize, condemn, shame, and otherwise inflict harm upon gay men, and specifically make maintaining long, stable relationships between gay men as difficult as they possibly can. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/46 "2010-12-03T16:33:41Z")
I was going to mention that, too, but forgot. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/47 "2010-12-03T18:24:24Z")
His argument is that by giving unique recognition to heterosexual marriage the state gives it honor. The reason the state gives marriage special recognition is in order provide stability for families. Marriage is about legally bonding a man and a woman to provide for their children and each other. Otherwise the vagaries of relationships are such that families could be routinely torn up over trivialities and emotions. Obviously trainsient feelings can rarely be the basis for a stable relationship. Adding gay relationships to the institution of marriage would change the nature of marriage from one that is primarily about family creation to one that is about the feelings of the people involved. Since feelings change all the time whereas obligations to family members change less, this change make the institution inherently less stable. It is not the gayness that threatens marriage, letting heterosexual friends of the same sex marry would change the institution in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/48 "2010-12-03T18:27:57Z")
Letting infertile people marry, too. Good thing we don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/49 "2010-12-03T18:55:56Z")
Or the elderly. Or those who don’t want to procreate. Or those whose ideas of obligation to family members differ from those of whoever gets to decide what “correct” family structure is. Is there no _end_ to the rabble attacking this purest of institutions, which has never existed in any form but its current one and for no reason other than baby-maximization? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/50 "2010-12-03T18:58:11Z")
Is there a way to keep a tax deduction for children and have a pair of people file jointly but not as a married couple? Just get rid of the tax benefit for marriage, keep the tax benefits for kids and voila. There would be no reason to marry at all. Think I could sell that to my wife? ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/51 "2010-12-03T19:01:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It is not the gayness that threatens marriage, letting heterosexual friends of the same sex marry would change the institution in the same way. Friends of the _opposite_ sex are currently allowed to marry anyway, whether heterosexual or homosexual. No law says a romantic or sexual bond must exist. Surely this happens from time to time for various reasons, but does it really rise to the level of threatening the institution? What makes anybody think it would become _more_ of an issue if same-sex marriage were allowed? Lots of buddies out there just waiting for the chance to get married so they can game the system? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/52 "2010-12-03T19:11:13Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Is there a way to keep a tax deduction for children and have a pair of people file jointly but not as a married couple? > > Just get rid of the tax benefit for marriage, keep the tax benefits for kids and voila. There would be no reason to marry at all. You get tax benefits for kids whether or not you’re married. > [@](#): > > Think I could sell that to my wife? Bit late. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/53 "2010-12-03T19:29:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You get tax benefits for kids whether or not you’re married. > > Bit late. Well yeah but if you filed single with kids, your “other” wouldn’t get to claim them. And I know about the bit late part 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/54 "2010-12-03T19:31:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Imagine how much worse our society will be with millions more gay men acting in the same “marry in haste, repent at leisure” way. If so, this would result in, at most, about **1%** more divorces (assuming, of course, that \*every \*gay person who got married did it as a lark). Truly the end of marriage. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/55 "2010-12-03T19:32:50Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > His argument is that by giving unique recognition to heterosexual marriage the state gives it honor. The reason the state gives marriage special recognition is in order provide stability for families. Marriage is about legally bonding a man and a woman to provide for their children and each other. Otherwise the vagaries of relationships are such that families could be routinely torn up over trivialities and emotions. Obviously trainsient feelings can rarely be the basis for a stable relationship. > Adding gay relationships to the institution of marriage would change the nature of marriage from one that is primarily about family creation to one that is about the feelings of the people involved. Since feelings change all the time whereas obligations to family members change less, this change make the institution inherently less stable. It is not the gayness that threatens marriage, letting heterosexual friends of the same sex marry would change the institution in the same way. Stability in hetero marriages? bah humbug - look at the divorce rate of heteros. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/56 "2010-12-03T19:33:24Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > On behalf of straight people everywhere, I congratulate America’s gay population on their ever-increasing opportunities to enjoy the benefits of loveless marriage and acrimonious divorce that we heterosexuals have denied all others for far, far too long. You’d think that all those people who think gay sex is “icky” would be doing their best to \*encourage \*gays to marry, thereby \*reducing \*the occurrence of gay sex. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/57 "2010-12-03T20:07:09Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I think you can. My elderly (85 yo) mother has no issue with homosexuality per se, which, in fact surprises me from a woman that age and quite prudish (For instance she mistakenly believed for quite some time that one of her grand daughter was a lesbian with an in-èhouse girlfriend, and it didn’t disturb her the slighest bit). > > However, she’s opposed to homosexual marriage, on the basis that it’s in her opinion plainly ludicrous. Basically, the idea of two men walking out of the townhall with friends or family cheering them for their marriage appears farcical to her. That’s one of those things that has never be done or even envisioned in her lifetime, and that she perceives as being “obviously” stupid. > [@SanVito](#): > > This is essentially the view of my own, kind, atheist 83 year old mother. It goes hand in hand with her view that ‘there weren’t any homosexuals in her day’. > > Riiiight Mum. I didn’t make the claim that all arguments against gay marriage are rooted in “homosexuality is wrong”, merely that the one in the OP (“threat to traditional marriage” in all its various guises) is. The “gay marriage is obviously farcical” or “there weren’t any gays back in the oughts” are different arguments, with different (obvious) flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/58 "2010-12-03T20:32:44Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Well yeah but if you filed single with kids, your “other” wouldn’t get to claim them. > > And I know about the bit late part 🙂 Isn’t the total per kid the deduction the same amount regardless of who claims them, though? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/59 "2010-12-03T21:48:01Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > One of the best explanations that I ever read is: [Asymmetrical Information](http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/005244.html) > It’s a long article, but well worth the read. Well, it’s worth reading as an example of someone who opposes the idea, but can’t actually come up with any real arguments, so they try to invoke vague dread about possible consequences without actually saying what these consequences are, and claiming to be opposed to strawmen activists who want social change for the sake of social change, giving them a stern condescending lecture on unintended results. The most interesting part is actually the response, with some praising the author as having come up with something brilliant and incisive. Actually, all the author’s done is give them a thin cloak for their bigotry - they’re not opposed to gays any more, they’re opposed to reckless social change. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699/60 "2010-12-05T11:53:09Z")
Nothing to add. I have never understood this, and no one has been able to explain it to me. Whatever anyone else does in terms of who they marry will have zero impact on my marriage. Or else I lack the imagination to envision what that impact might be. My wife and I will still love each other, and we’ll still be married, and no aspect of our relationship will change even slightly if two gay guys get married. I am generally of the belief that anything you do that doesn’t have a material impact on me is none of my business. This clearly falls in that category. Or, as I said, nothing to add, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-behind-the-threat-to-traditional-marriage-argument/562699.md?page=4)