# What's crazy in the (USA) Democratic Party coalition? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773 "2017-01-21T22:49:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/21 "2017-01-22T14:06:49Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Have you ever heard of the saying that there’s no such thing as free lunch? > > The same applies here. Indeed it is the economic observation. There is also the entirely market based economic observation that for certain kinds of goods, of which the education, the returns from the public subsidy or taking in charge of a long term investment such as the education exceed the cost. The simple observation “there is no such thing as a free lunch” is not very clever or useful in fact and by the manner of statement suggests this is the not-really literate in economics ideology speaking. There is the legitimate question of whether a certain level of publicly supported education has good returns - and what kind - but the economic data for the positive returns of the free public education over the cost are very robust over many different levels of the development and different systems. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/22 "2017-01-22T15:01:44Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Indeed it is the economic observation. There is also the entirely market based economic observation that for certain kinds of goods, of which the education, the returns from the public subsidy or taking in charge of a long term investment such as the education exceed the cost. > > The simple observation “there is no such thing as a free lunch” is not very clever or useful in fact and by the manner of statement suggests this is the not-really literate in economics ideology speaking. > > There is the legitimate question of whether a certain level of publicly supported education has good returns - and what kind - but the economic data for the positive returns of the free public education over the cost are very robust over many different levels of the development and different systems. That’s a sensible and very erudite explanation, **Ramira**. But you misuderstand \*\*D’Aconia’s \*\*point: He/She doesn’t want to have to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/23 "2017-01-22T18:18:55Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Indeed it is the economic observation. There is also the entirely market based economic observation that for certain kinds of goods, of which the education, the returns from the public subsidy or taking in charge of a long term investment such as the education exceed the cost. I too believe this to be true, but can’t find a cite. Can you provide one? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/24 "2017-01-22T19:13:06Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I think if the Democratic Party focused more on economic justice, and less on bathrooms and skin tone, we’d be better off. This would actually threaten centers of power, so it can’t happen. Racial and gender politics don’t threaten the system as a whole, so institutions make sure to focus popular political energy in that direction. Even then there’s a lot of resistance, but you can trace progress over time. Note that it was the Republicans focused on bathrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/25 "2017-01-22T19:27:03Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > That’s a sensible and very erudite explanation, **Ramira**. But you misuderstand \*\*D’Aconia’s \*\*point: He/She doesn’t want to have to pay for it. I understood very well his wanting to use an econmic argument to dress up his simple personal political preference in a kind of more justified and stronger economic observation, to make it sound less narrow and partisan. > [@Quartz](#): > > I too believe this to be true, but can’t find a cite. Can you provide one? I will later look for something citable. There is much research (it is not to say that this means any and all such spending is good or that extending beyond a certain level of the schooling is effective all the time) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/26 "2017-01-22T19:40:36Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Caitlyn Jenner is a Republican. Yeah. I think I actually knew that. But her affiliation’s not relevant to the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/27 "2017-01-22T21:31:46Z")
> [@nate](#): > > I’m liberal and voted for obama twice, and hillary this time, and live in a deep-red state blah blah… I think we’ve won on the LGBT thing, lost on gun control and abortion and I’m willing to accept that. Gun control because the cat is out of the bag as far as there being guns available and it’s just a rallying cry for conservatives; abortion because people that believe it is equivalent to murder will always be sickened by the thought some people don’t. I agree with the dems agenda to reduce abortions, and I think the GOP’s actually increase the need (restricting birth control, abstinence education), but alas, this is a big single-issue vote. The republican party is batshit crazy right now, and in power, and I’m actually scared for the first time as an American in what damage our gov’t can do with a bull in the china shop scenario. I’d prefer the dems to concede on those two issues to ensure more victories. There are more important things… and we should give birth control out like candy. Personally I can see giving up on gun control, even reasonable gun control angers some people. However barely 22% of Americans are gun owners. Of them, I’d wager a lot of them are not gun nuts (I own a gun and I’m not a gun nut, other owners I know aren’t either). The % of Americans who own guns and are radicalized are probably 10%. On abortion, I think there is a movement just as strong on the left to support abortion rights since many of the left feel abortion is a proxy for women’s autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/28 "2017-01-23T05:56:59Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Identity politics is what’s crazy about the Democratic Party. People have become too obsessed with being hand-capable, transgendered, left-handed, bi-sexual, colorful people without penises. I’m all for true equality and justice, but “social justice” has practically become a joke. Right. I’d blame that more on people not understanding the issues, blatantly misrepresenting them, and nutpicking a tiny minority of the Tumblr set and pretending that represents the democratic party in any way, shape, or form. I feel the need to point out that your posts here haven’t exactly shown the best understanding of “social justice”. > [@](#): > > I think if the Democratic Party focused more on economic justice, and less on bathrooms and skin tone, we’d be better off. Without racial justice there can be no economic justice. How do we correct for economic injustices if we fail to account for the fact that there is long-standing and continuing racism against African-Americans in hiring, work retention, policing, and more? How do we adjust for that if we can’t recognize it? These things matter, and they’re interconnected. Meanwhile, on the subject of transgender bathrooms, what you seem to be implying is that we should just cede the issue, despite it clearly being a case of bad legislature pushed to discriminate against people with no actual basis beyond that. Yeah, _that_ doesn’t sound craven and opportunistic at all. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/29 "2017-01-23T06:49:56Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Personally I can see giving up on gun control, even reasonable gun control angers some people. > > However barely 22% of Americans are gun owners. Of them, I’d wager a lot of them are not gun nuts (I own a gun and I’m not a gun nut, other owners I know aren’t either). The % of Americans who own guns and are radicalized are probably 10%. But then there are the non-gun-owners who feel strongly that gun ownership should be unfettered. It’s like how some Republican voters vote for people that would enact policies that would hurt them personally economically. They don’t care. In their minds they are voting for the American Way. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/30 "2017-01-24T02:03:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > When I change the oil in my car, I get a free car wash. I guess _your_ ilk would “need” to say “TNSTAAFL; they probably hiked up the price of the oil to pay for the wash.” When McDonald’s offers you free ketchup with your fries, does your ilk throw it back with a "“TNSTAAFL” war cry? If your massage parlor offers a “free happy ending” do you insist on a discount, because you don’t want to be happy? > > Let’s ask you (and your “ilk”!) serious questions: Do you think D’s or Dopers are unfamiliar with the concept of public funding through taxation? Do you think D’s or Dopers believe there’s a magic wand that turns sand dunes into teachers for free schooling? Do you think that repeating “2+2 is 4” is much help when someone from the oppositie ilk is studying for their calculus exam? I disagree. It needs to be pointed out that “free” college education is not really free. When you buy fries at McDonalds and get “free” ketchup, you understand that it is a package deal. One price gets you fries and ketchup, even if McDonald’s wants to call it full cost fries with the ketchup being no additional charge. The issue comes with these entitled millennials who want the free college from Bernie while someone else pays the tax bill. It would be as if you bought the fries, but the millennials were taking your packets of ketchup. In these types of cases, the public needs a reminder that the programs are not offering anything for free, unless you would like public policy debates to be done with all of the accuracy of marketing slogans. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/31 "2017-01-24T02:13:22Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think if “crazy” means wilful ignorance of the facts, then there’s far less craziness among the Dems right now. I would disagree. Pretty much all of the Trump voters knew exactly the type of man they were voting for and didn’t care or thought hes was the better option of the two ar even feel the same way he did. I found Clinton supporter to be far more (willfully?) ignorant of their own candidate’s failings. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/32 "2017-01-24T03:22:25Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I would disagree. Pretty much all of the Trump voters knew exactly the type of man they were voting for and didn’t care or thought hes was the better option of the two ar even feel the same way he did. I found Clinton supporter to be far more (willfully?) ignorant of their own candidate’s failings. Well firstly I disagree with that assessment. Trump many times accused the lying media of making up stories that were demonstrably true; things that are on tape. He hasn’t released his tax returns because…why, again? He retweets fake news constantly. But secondly I was making a somewhat different point. I was talking about the prevelence of belief in untrue facts like “Global warming had a hiatus” or “The US is letting in millions of refugees”. That kind of ignorance seems to be mostly occupied by the GOP right now. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/33 "2017-01-24T06:33:55Z")
The problem with gun control is that the fraction of people who will automatically vote _against_ the “gun control candidate” is pretty substantial, and the fraction of people who will automatically vote _for_ the “gun control candidate” basically doesn’t exist. If Obama and Romney spontaneously, in the first debate, switched places on gun control, there’s a _lot_ of voters who would look at that and say, “Well shit, we’re voting Democrat now.” There are virtually none who would say, “Well shit, guess we have to vote for Romney”. Example chosen because Trump is kind of… _different_. In a bad way. That’s the reality that makes gun control a political loser. You could have 80% of the country in favor, and 20% against, and as long as that 20% is fanatical and that 80% doesn’t actually care that much, we go with the 20%. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773/34 "2017-01-24T07:25:16Z")
Has anyone pinged **octopus** yet? For a thread predicated on his idea, you’d think he’d have some input. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crazy-in-the-usa-democratic-party-coalition/777773.md?page=1)