# What's Crueler: Nature or People? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724 "2006-09-14T18:45:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/21 "2006-09-14T23:23:48Z")
Humans are cruel because we invented ethics. While we don’t know the true motivation of Animals, we do know they don’t have the same set of guiding principles (esp. the lower ones, like fish - almost all behaviour is hard-wired by instinct.) And it’s because some people are capable of such acts of love, that the terrible things other people are capable of doing are much more terrible than a cat playing with the mouse. Harm (sometimes great harm) done by neglect, ignorance, not caring isn’t the worst of what humans can do. Cruelty done with intent and knowledge of it by humans is the worst. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/22 "2006-09-14T23:29:12Z")
[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann] Why are people or animals cruel? Probablly becasue of natural instinct or maybe out of boredom. Maybe nature has been cruel to them, so as they say, crap rolls down hill, and if that huge force that we call nature is cruel to us, then we find something we are stronger than, and take it out on that… The difference is that man is conscious of his cruelty…(and those who beleive in God must also believe that god is conscious of the cruelty he is responsible for) but if you dont believe in god, then you have to ask yourself: “is nature conscious of its cruelty?” [/QUOTE] The earth quakes because the forces moving plates outweigh the forces that are keeping them together. People who commit atrocities do so because the forces that prevent them are outweighed by the forces compelling them. Why is our consciousness of the process important? Moral codes are just one force preventing atrocities by people. ---
**Author:** ![PaulEdwardWagemann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@PaulEdwardWagemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulEdwardWagemann)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/23 "2006-09-15T00:46:17Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] The earth quakes because the forces moving plates outweigh the forces that are keeping them together. People who commit atrocities do so because the forces that prevent them are outweighed by the forces compelling them. Why is our consciousness of the process important? Moral codes are just one force preventing atrocities by people. [/QUOTE] Because of free will. We can choose not to be cruel even though the forces pushing us to be cruel outweigh the forces pushing us to be cruel…if you exerting yoru free will in that manner then you must be conscious of that fact, . That’s why its important… ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/24 "2006-09-15T01:18:33Z")
[QUOTE=Eve] On the **nature downside** , nature is heartless: billions of creatures die horribly, painfully, every day. Many never make it beyond babyhood. Some are killed by their own parents. On the **nature upside** , they don’t do it out of perverseness; that’s just they way they’re programmed: they have to screw and eat and survive. “No hard feelings.” [/QUOTE] How is this answered by those who believe that a loving God? The predators kill because they have been imbued with a will to live and they only way they were given to live is to kill their prey. On the other hand the prey also have a will to live and have been given just enough tools so that they escape much of the time. As a result they live to reproduce so as to provide more prey, but their chance of dying of old age are small. And, they always live in fear seemingly by the wish of the Designer.. ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/25 "2006-09-15T02:10:18Z")
I never have believed in a sweetly loving God, precisely because I was raised immersed in observing nature, with all it’s attendant squishy bloody devouring savage moments, by biologist parents. I do have an appreciation for nature’s complexity, and how each piece and creature fits in to sustain the whole of life on this ol’ planet. Law of the Jungle, with seemingly horrifying events for survival, but that’s life here on Earth. I would go with People as being more cruel, because human beings have, at this point, a consciousness developed enough that we have a choice in our behaviour. We realize how our actions affect others through time, and can refer to ethical systems of society to aid in those choices. Nature has no written/oral history to possibly refer to, just inborn instinct and successful patterns. (Am sure that someone can elaborate on that way better than I can) Some people are flying blind, sure, due to constraints of survival, but there’s such an incredible amount of historical information available at this point in time, that human beings can make a choice beyond ignorance and cruelty. To me, that includes helping those who do not have the luxury of seeing beyond Tooth-and-Nail to get to a point where they can afford the choice. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/26 "2006-09-15T05:50:00Z")
[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann] Because of free will. We can choose not to be cruel even though the forces pushing us to be cruel outweigh the forces pushing us to be cruel…if you exerting yoru free will in that manner then you must be conscious of that fact, . That’s why its important… [/QUOTE] The adverse affects on others (cruelty) is just another inhibiting factor. If the opposing forces are great enough, the inhibiting forces will be overcome. You can be fully conscious of both forces and still commit atrocities. We each have our own program that analyzes these situations. Given the exact same inputs, wouldn’t the same individual give the exact same results? In other words, do we really have free will? ---
**Author:** ![PaulEdwardWagemann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@PaulEdwardWagemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulEdwardWagemann)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/27 "2006-09-15T12:51:44Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] The adverse affects on others (cruelty) is just another inhibiting factor. If the opposing forces are great enough, the inhibiting forces will be overcome. You can be fully conscious of both forces and still commit atrocities. We each have our own program that analyzes these situations. Given the exact same inputs, wouldn’t the same individual give the exact same results? In other words, do we really have free will? [/QUOTE] First, I think its impossible for two individuals to have the exact same inputs. So concluding that they would have the exact same results in not provable. In terms of free will, if you think that humans are just a bunch of automatons programmed to manifest nature’s will, then I take it that you must think that nature has a will of its own. So what is nature’s will? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/28 "2006-09-15T13:10:22Z")
[QUOTE=elelle] I would go with People as being more cruel, because human beings have, at this point, a consciousness developed enough that we have a choice in our behaviour. [/QUOTE] I don’t think everyone has a choice. Many people live at the bare subsitance level and simply can’t afford to be kind to others and still survive themselves. Such people must behave like small birds. They are always looking for food unless they are asleep And if one finds some it had better be eaten immediately or another bird will try to steal it. I really don’t think that the question can be answered since nature in the sense used here is entirely different from people. Operates on a different level and by different rules. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/29 "2006-09-15T13:16:57Z")
[QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann] First, I think its impossible for two individuals to have the exact same inputs. [/QUOTE] I agree. I made no such claim. I spoke of an impossible experiment where one individual was presented with the exact same situation twice. [QUOTE=PaulEdwardWagemann] In terms of free will, if you think that humans are just a bunch of automatons programmed to manifest nature’s will, then I take it that you must think that nature has a will of its own. So what is nature’s will? [/QUOTE] I make no claim that nature has a will. I’d be interested in hearing your definition of will, if you think it exists. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/30 "2006-09-15T18:25:15Z")
If some rapid fan had shot Steve Irwin to death, wouldn’t that be worse than nature. If a massive earthquake had hit lower Manhattan on 9/11, wouldn’t that have been more understandable than ten fanatical humans? People chose to do evil to each other. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/31 "2006-09-15T18:47:25Z")
“Cruelty” in Nature must always be in quotes, because that’s an anthropomorphic projection. Occurrences that we see, from our perspective, as cruel, are necessary. They are all part of a greater system. Rabbits were “designed” by nature to be eaten. If that weren’t true, then each pair of rabbits would only need to produce two offspring in their lifetime. Prey animals are nature’s grocery stores: they provide food up the chain. They’re supposed to; that’s how it works. The reason for rabbits is to convert grass into meat. The concept of cruelty is a non-sequitur in this context. Cruelty, like religion and reruns, is a human invention. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/32 "2006-09-15T18:59:02Z")
Sorry, “reason” should also be in quotes. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/33 "2006-09-15T19:54:01Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] If some rapid fan had shot Steve Irwin to death, wouldn’t that be worse than nature. [/QUOTE] Worse in what way? > [@](#): > > If a massive earthquake had hit lower Manhattan on 9/11, wouldn’t that have been more understandable than ten fanatical humans? Again, if the two events caused the same degree of suffering, why would one be worse? > [@](#): > > People chose to do evil to each other. People do things that are detrimental to people (and other things). So do animals. So do geologic events. We usually differentiate the human’s actions from the others with the label _evil_. But if humans do not have free will, isn’t that label a distinction without a difference? ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724/34 "2006-09-15T20:32:21Z")
Think about this… If you say that we possess something that sets us apart from nature, (call it free will or what have you) then how would you expect us to behave if we didn’t have it? Just like the rest of nature? So, does that special quality make humans, as a whole, more or less cruel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-crueler-nature-or-people/372724.md?page=1)