# What's Going on with \[Aspiring\] Teachers Failing their Certification Tests? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2021, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238 "2021-07-25T02:29:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/101 "2021-07-30T17:19:30Z")
> [@naita](#): > > , I realize there may be jurisdictions lacking any similar paths, Australia. When I graduated\*, Australian (3-year program) graduates required only a 6 month qualification (half of which was teaching practice), but now it’s a 4 year requirement. Out of the 4 year requirement, it’s still only a 3 month teaching practice: the rest of it is writing essays. In this jurisdiction, I don’t blame just ‘the unions’. It’s also ‘the universities’ that benefit from requiring a 4 year degree for certification. \*And French university graduates had only recently lost the automatic qualification to teach straight out of university. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/102 "2021-07-30T17:26:54Z")
> [@naita](#): > > What are the requirements for becoming a teacher that you consider unreasonable? Here in Alberta, if you already have a degree you still have to complete a one or two year after degree program in education, then you have to get certified, which involves something like 400 hours of clasroom experience. If you want to teach in high school you have to have degrees in the subjects you want to trach, and you have to be able to teach two subjects. So unless you have a degree in science with a minor in math or something, you may have to take a second degree. Once you jump through all those hoops you have to find a job, and not a lot of places are hiring 50-something brand new teachers. If you do get work, it will likely be in the substitute teaching pool, and you’ll never go further than that. I knew a guy who had an English degree and was working in the theater industry. There was no money in it, so he went back to school and got his teaching credentials. All he ever got for his trouble was a few substitute jobs, always on short notice and with an indefinite span. Since he had to work full time he eventually dropped put of the pool and found a job outside teaching. My son says he was the best English teacher he ever had, and he’s no longer teaching. So the time commitment to become a teacher is significant, the hoops to jump through numerous, and in the end the risk that not much will come of it are high. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/103 "2021-07-30T17:34:34Z")
Here in America, you could always go work for a private school, where absolutely anyone they want to hire can be a teacher, no credential required. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/104 "2021-07-30T17:46:53Z")
IME, their is an extreme reluctance to hire part time teachers. Part of this is that because of benefits, 2 part time teachers are more expensive than one full time teacher. But the bigger issue is the perception that if one part time person leaves, it would be hard to replace them because their are so few PT teachers out there. It’s circular. I do wish part time employment was more of a thing. I know several women who were teachers and left the workforce to take care of children. They’d be thrilled to reenter the profession and make half a professional salary, and would do good work. But even once the kids are in school, full time outside the house work won’t work for their family, and part time non-professional work doesn’t seem worth it. This isn’t just an issue in teaching, of course. Our national disdain for the concept of part time professional is unfortunate. Teachers in Texas can complete their certification while working as teachers. There are half a dozen programs. We still have a shortage of math and science teachers (and SpEd and bilingual and LOTE and several other things). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/105 "2021-07-30T18:01:50Z")
Not teachers. _People wanting to become teachers._ I am not sure you understand this. Have you asked the mods to fix your title yet? It is misleading. It is racist at least to the degree that wannabe teachers who can afford to buy a CBest test prep class pass at a much higher rate. Do we want only people with money to be able to be teachers? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/106 "2021-07-30T18:13:59Z")
Again, it’s crucial to think about the difference between _knowing_ a subject, and _knowing how to teach_ a subject. I’d put my mathematical competence up against 99% of elementary math teachers: I have a really, really good grasp of elementary school math and why it works and interesting connections between them. But I am straight up humbled by the ability of some of my co-workers to explain concepts to kids in a way that works for them. It’s really, really hard to do, and not at all the same skill as performing math. Don’t believe me? Okay. I got a fourth grader that’s not entirely clear on the concept of division, much less on the concept of numerators and denominators. It’s time to teach this kid how to compare fractions like 2/3 and 3/4. How do you do it, such that they understand the concept and can use their understanding to compare 6/7 and 9/10? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/107 "2021-07-30T18:49:14Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > There is a political angle to this, because the group of people who _can’t do math tests for cultural reasons_ is biased towards Blak people, I’m not sure if you meant to phrase this in this way but it sounds as if you’re saying Black culture makes them unable to do arithmetic. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/108 "2021-07-30T19:24:12Z")
What you don’t seem to understand is that the ability to do math, and the ability to teach math to little kids, are two completely different skills. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/109 "2021-07-30T19:33:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Here in Alberta, if you already have a degree you still have to complete a one or two year after degree program in education, then you have to get certified, which involves something like 400 hours of clasroom experience. If you want to teach in high school you have to have degrees in the subjects you want to trach, and you have to be able to teach two subjects. So unless you have a degree in science with a minor in math or something, you may have to take a second degree. I agree that’s a pretty high bar to clear. It doesn’t look to me though that you need 400 hours of classroom experience on top of the education degree. That’s to make your certification permanent, which doesn’t seem unreasonable. Still, if Alberta has a shortage of teachers, some alternative and shorter paths would be appropriate. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Once you jump through all those hoops you have to find a job, and not a lot of places are hiring 50-something brand new teachers. If you do get work, it will likely be in the substitute teaching pool, and you’ll never go further than that. That’s not specific to teachers though. Changing careers late in life is always difficult. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I knew a guy who had an English degree and was working in the theater industry. There was no money in it, so he went back to school and got his teaching credentials. All he ever got for his trouble was a few substitute jobs, always on short notice and with an indefinite span. Since he had to work full time he eventually dropped put of the pool and found a job outside teaching. My son says he was the best English teacher he ever had, and he’s no longer teaching. And what do you think the solution would be there? I’d expect that if the bar for accepting career changed teacher’s was lower, there would be even more competition for those positions, and they would, as a group, be less attractive hires. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/110 "2021-07-30T19:44:18Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I agree that’s a pretty high bar to clear. It doesn’t look to me though that you need 400 hours of classroom experience on top of the education degree. That’s to make your certification permanent, which doesn’t seem unreasonable. 400 hours sounds like a lot, but it’s a semester at 4.5 classroom hours/day (those math word problems!) It isn’t onerous to ask a prospective teacher to spend a semester in a classroom getting observed and getting feedback before they’re let loose with students. How much shorter do you want? Is the alternative proposal that schools should just let people who want to teach in with just a week of practice? None at all? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/111 "2021-07-30T19:52:18Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > 400 hours sounds like a lot, but it’s a semester at 4.5 classroom hours/day (those math word problems!) It isn’t onerous to ask a prospective teacher to spend a semester in a classroom getting observed and getting feedback before they’re let loose with students. How much shorter do you want? Is the alternative proposal that schools should just let people who want to teach in with just a week of practice? None at all? I meant the 1-2 year degree in education before that, if you have a degree in a relevant subject matter and you’ve been working for a while. As I wrote in my previous post, in Norway you can start teaching, without such a degree, and do the certification degree in parallel, part time, over three semesters. The Norwegian school system hasn’t collapsed under this, and it’s allowed for easier recruitment of STEM teachers with experience outside of academia. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/112 "2021-07-30T19:55:31Z")
FWIW I tend to think an apprenticeship program would be excellent. Folks who want to be a teacher should spend a year as a paid teacher assistant. What you’d learn from that would be worth more than any single college course could ever teach. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/113 "2021-07-30T20:29:30Z")
I totally agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2021, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/114 "2021-07-31T01:24:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m not sure if you meant to phrase this in this way but it sounds as if you’re saying Black culture makes them unable to do arithmetic. I’m actually surprised that there are people who don’t immediately grok that _arithmetic test_ is not the same as “arithmetic”, which says something about my background, but having repeated the same thing several times in this thread, I think it’s unnecessary to explain that in every single post. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2021, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/115 "2021-07-31T01:42:43Z")
Much better than 12 weeks of student teaching, which you pay for the privilege of doing. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2021, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/116 "2021-07-31T01:51:11Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I’m actually surprised that there are people who don’t immediately grok that _arithmetic test_ is not the same as “arithmetic” There is nothing about Black culture preventing Black people from doing well at arithmetic OR arithmetic tests. Nothing whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2021, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/117 "2021-07-31T02:20:51Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > What you don’t seem to understand is that the ability to do math, and the ability to teach math to little kids, are two completely different skills. Yep. Teaching introductory stuff is a skill, and it’s one not everybody has. College example, but I took a chemistry class meant for people who’d **never** had it before, and who had no plans to continue. I came out of there with a 21% average in tests. 21%. That was a solid **C**. An A was something like 52%. One person out of our class of roughly 125 got an A. He could teach, but not at a beginning level. On another note, I’m reliably informed the the University of Arizona medical school is worried because too many students can’t pass the Board exam. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2021, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/118 "2021-07-31T03:03:03Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Much better than 12 weeks of student teaching, which you pay for the privilege of doing. Our school has very few Black teachers, but lots of Black instructional assistants. I was talking with one IA who’s brilliant and great with kids and asked her if she’d ever thought about getting her license. “Sure!” she said. “But I can’t afford to.” She could swing night classes or online classes. But the idea of being out of work for three months so she could student teach was financially impossible for her. IAs aren’t paid enough to be able to afford to stop being IAs. That’s some catch, that Catch-22. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2021, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/119 "2021-07-31T05:18:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There is nothing about Black culture preventing Black people from doing well at arithmetic OR arithmetic tests. Nothing whatsoever. Well, this is great debates, so this time I’m not going to bother posting references (I’ve had it with ‘there were references but I still don’t believe it’). Anywhere else, I’d hope that you would recognize the difference between ‘preventing’ and ‘systemic bias’, but here, you can take whatever argument position you want. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2021, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238/120 "2021-07-31T05:19:26Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I’d hope that you would recognize the difference between ‘preventing’ and ‘systemic bias’, but here, you can take whatever argument position you want. You didn’t say there was a problem with systemic bias. You said the problem was with Black people. Are you changing your position? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-going-on-with-aspiring-teachers-failing-their-certification-tests/947238.md?page=7)