# What's happening to Venezuela? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2016, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883 "2016-06-20T11:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/41 "2016-06-22T14:23:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Utter idiots can get to the top in any form of government; none of them have any real advantage in this regard. Democracies, though, are better at limiting the damage they can do, if only by making it easier to send them home. Hell yeah. People vote an utter idiot based on the idea that he is “like us”, which is only true in that they’re both stupid. Feces hit the cooling device and things get completely out of hand. Even switching to a better president might not undo the damage in a generation. I saw it with my own two eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/42 "2016-06-22T14:46:04Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The amounts of ignorance, racism, sexism… were and are enormous. [A post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15532118&postcount=10) recalling my cousin’s work getting kids to school and people’s existence officially recognized. One of the things she had to learn was that she needed to ask people how many _hijos e hijas_ they had, sons and daughters: in this instance, the word for children is also _hijos_, but if she didn’t specify “and daughters” they’d only count boys. > > I’ve met several Venezuelans who spoke of people who’d moved from the jungle to the city in their teens or as grown-ups and who didn’t know how to use “basic” appliances such as a toilet or hob, referring to them as “idiots”: when I asked when and where would such a person have encountered a toilet or hob before, and how would they have known how one works, it took several tries for the “oh so wise one” to even begin to accept that “uninformed” is not the same as “imbecile”. I know people in Spain, from generations ranging from my great-grandparents’ to my parents’, who at one point were in the same situation as those jungle folk, but whose own employers realized they needed to train the new servant in the very basics, not insult them! > > It was very fucked up, but slowly getting better. Now it is not slowly getting better ☹ And that’s what will happen, all the moderate social reforms will be trashed as they will be incorrectly tagged with all the terrible things happening now, so people will be fooled into thinking there is no alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/43 "2016-06-22T15:02:47Z")
What moderate social reforms? There have been none from Chavez’ side. Stuff like my cousin’s work was pre-Chavez (she’s one of the foreigners he kicked out of the country as soon as he took power), and under the pre-Chavez legal system. The Bolivaristas are as interested in moderation as I am in experiencing a gunshot wound. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/44 "2016-06-22T15:05:27Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Chávez actually went and did his damnedest best to bring them down, scaring away foreign investment, a lot of the educated people, and burning down the economy. So really, the answer to the question of “What’s happening in Venezuela?” is that the nation is now reaping what it sowed under Chavez. And… what’s a “hob”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/45 "2016-06-22T15:09:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ayn Rand. Of course, an Objectivist regime would be even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/46 "2016-06-22T15:13:01Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And… what’s a “hob”? The kitchen appliance you cook on. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/47 "2016-06-22T15:43:19Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The kitchen appliance you cook on. The table? [sub]Bow-chicka-wow-wow…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/48 "2016-06-22T15:44:37Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And… what’s a “hob”? Stovetop. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/49 "2016-06-22T16:25:16Z")
If you want to talk about socialism/communism you have to go back to Marx and one of his most famous sayings was “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. Is anyone here saying Venezuela meets this criteria? If not why are you talking about Venezuela being a socialist/communist country? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/50 "2016-06-22T17:04:27Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > If you want to talk about socialism/communism you have to go back to Marx and one of his most famous sayings was “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. > > Is anyone here saying Venezuela meets this criteria? If not why are you talking about Venezuela being a socialist/communist country? If people could agree on people’s abilities and needs then communism would have worked. On Taxi Jim Ignatowski talked about his days at a commune where everyone would do their own thing. Unfortunately everyone’s own thing was getting high and no one’s own thing was growing food. ---
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/51 "2016-06-22T19:42:11Z")
Has anyone heard of the game “Tropico 4”? It’s an awesome game where you rule a tropical island. Anyway your challenge is to build it up, it’s like a city builder with an island. Anyway I found because unlike the previous versions of Tropico, you can import things. So I can start out buy two rum distilleries, import everything and make a fortune. The game is so easy as long as nothing blocks the imports. Of course there are a ton of challenges to change the game play and make it harder, but the lesson is, if you depend too much on one thing, once something interrupts it, your economy will crash and in the game you can’t build it back up. It’s a fun game and a great lesson in economics. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/52 "2016-06-22T19:55:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If people could agree on people’s abilities and needs then communism would have worked. Only if mankind changed, fundamentally. People react poorly when they work hard and make good choices, subsequently to be “punished” for it, while others are being complete morons and being “rewarded” for it. You can tell them that the one guy is getting less because his choices meant that he needed less and the other person is getting more because his choices meant that he needed more, but humans aren’t rational. And the least and most rational are the ones most likely to abuse the system. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/53 "2016-06-22T21:32:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Only if mankind changed, fundamentally. People react poorly when they work hard and make good choices, subsequently to be “punished” for it, while others are being complete morons and being “rewarded” for it. You can tell them that the one guy is getting less because his choices meant that he needed less and the other person is getting more because his choices meant that he needed more, but humans aren’t rational. And the least and most rational are the ones most likely to abuse the system. So is this a critique of socialism or capitalism? Note: I’m in favor of capitalism. But let’s not make the mistake of thinking that under capitalism that just because you are rewarded more than the other guy it’s because you deserved it and he didn’t. Often times people are rewarded for reasons that have nothing to do with how hard they work or how good their choices are. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/54 "2016-06-22T22:00:34Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > If you want to talk about socialism/communism you have to go back to Marx and one of his most famous sayings was “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. > > Is anyone here saying Venezuela meets this criteria? If not why are you talking about Venezuela being a socialist/communist country? By this standard, there has never been a socialist/communist country in the history of the world. What we are discussing is the practical implementation of Marx’s idea. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/55 "2016-06-23T01:02:14Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > The Venezuelan economy has been dominated by oil forever; well long enough that it made up over a majority of of exports back in 1990 and currently sits at 95% of exports today. With record high oil prices, the government effectively turned the state oil producer into a supplier of social services. So what Venezuela needed was restricted oil supplies with high prices per barrel to keep the ship stable. > > To allow the state oil company to “break even” they need oil to sit at [~$117](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-28/venezuela-needs-oil-s-rally-more-than-anyone-as-economy-teeters). You may have noticed it’s currently sitting around $50. > > Since the country went all in on oil, they’ve nothing left to trade with the world and the government is scrambling. Government debt is exploding, the state oil company can’t borrow any further, the country is poor as dirt to begin with, while monetary controls and a plunging currency are making everything expensive as all hell. Thank you! Venezuela is a petroleum state, and like other petroleum states has been wiped out by the Saudis deliberately driving down oil prices in a global game of “beggar thy neighbor.” They would be in deep trouble with or without Bolivarism. And yes, this should worry the USA, especially places like Alaska and Oklahoma where fossil fuels are a major part of the economy. If “nothing’s as precious as a hole in the ground,” (and yes, I know that song is about a uranium mine) to the point that the rest of the economy is dwarfed by an extractive industry of any kind (natural gas, rare earths, silver, fishing), then that economy and culture will undergo great suffering to bend everything around that hole in the ground, and eventually fall into ruin. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/56 "2016-06-23T01:26:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And yes, this should worry the USA, especially places like Alaska and Oklahoma where fossil fuels are a major part of the economy. If “nothing’s as precious as a hole in the ground,” (and yes, I know that song is about a uranium mine) to the point that the rest of the economy is dwarfed by an extractive industry of any kind (natural gas, rare earths, silver, fishing), then that economy and culture will undergo great suffering to bend everything around that hole in the ground, and eventually fall into ruin. I believe that the thing to do is use up all of theirs and be able to fall back on ours. Perhaps we should help out Venezuela, and buy their oil at a higher price so that we don’t have to rely on the Saudis when they raise they price. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/57 "2016-06-23T12:55:03Z")
It needs oil at near $100 a barrel. There is no way in hell that the US is going to buy access to Venezuelan heavy crude at twice the current market rate. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/58 "2016-06-23T13:35:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe that the thing to do is use up all of theirs and be able to fall back on ours. > > Perhaps we should help out Venezuela, and buy their oil at a higher price so that we don’t have to rely on the Saudis when they raise they price. Venezuela is part of OPEC, so that plan doesn’t make sense. When the Saudis raise their prices (or, more accurately cut production causing prices to rise), Venezuela does the same thing (and vice versa…when the Saudis keep production the same so does Venezuela). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/59 "2016-06-23T16:22:49Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Thank you! Venezuela is a petroleum state, and like other petroleum states has been wiped out by the Saudis deliberately driving down oil prices in a global game of “beggar thy neighbor.” Why did the Saudis do that, anyway? It seems to go against the purpose of OPEC. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883/60 "2016-06-23T16:27:01Z")
Temporarily pushing prices down so as to put competitors out of business (and then jacking prices back up again) is SOP for monopolies, and is outlawed for this reason by US anti-monopoly laws and some international trade agreements. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-happening-to-venezuela/757883.md?page=4)